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Old 08-21-2019, 08:41 AM   #1
fendertelemusik
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Default strange volume issue and what im actually hearing.

Hey hoping someone could shed some light as to why im hearing differently from what the master volume is reading.

So I have this one constant rhythm guitar track that plays consistently throughout the song.... and during the pre verse there is two lead guitar parts that are panned far left and right... when I have them sitting where I can still hear the rhythm guitar nicely, the master volume shows the whole song peaks at around the -12 on both sides(left/right)

However at the chorus there are another two guitar parts( the first two guitar parts only play during the perverse) that come in and when I raise them both to a level that the rhythm guitar can still be heard the master volume peaks at around only - 16

So the song takes a dip in volume when these two accompanying tracks join the rhythm guitar... if I boosted both of them to where the master volume was peaking at around the -12 mark like the pre verse the rhythm guitar can not be heard.

So im struggling to understand how these two guitar parts can be equally as loud as the other two guitar parts to hear yet be lower in the master volume peaks.
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:01 AM   #2
domzy
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bit of a minefield, this one.
are they playing the same notes? are the sounds the sounds the same? are the pan settings the same? etc.
lots of variables to eliminate, and that's before we even get into the murky physics of what is loudness? how are you measuring it? etc.
there are a few threads on this sort of topic and countless internet info on peaks, RMS, LUFS, loudness wars & all that sort of stuff.
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:49 AM   #3
fendertelemusik
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both of the lead accompanying guitars are playing picking parts whilst the rhythm track is playing.

in the pre verse the first two guitars recorded on tracks 3 and 4 for example sound nice alongside the rhythm track and are both panned hard left and right and at the end of the pre verse cut out.

then the verse is just drums bass and rhythm guitar

then another two guitars recorded on track 5 and 6 again both hard panned left and right enter the song for the whole chorus and drop out at the end of it.

back to preverse and the other two guitars come back in.... im noticing after the chorus that the song takes a dip in volume by ear... but reads higher on the master volume levels which is so strange to me.

im guessing the conflicting frequencies are giving the impression of drowning out the acoustic despite being quieter than the pre verse guitars that sit nicely with it but are louder according to the master volume.
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:53 AM   #4
DVDdoug
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I'm betting these are not truly-separate recordings. The only way to get effective "subtraction" is to invert a copy and mix.


For example, if you record yourself saying "hello" (or record a guitar part) then make a copy, invert the copy (or invert the original), and then mix at the same volume level with no time-shifts, you'll get complete subtraction and total silence. If you change the level of one track, you'll get partial subtraction.


With a time shift you'll get comb filtering (addition and subtraction at different frequencies) and in some cases that can lower the volume too. With a time shift, inversion will give you "different" comb filtering than non-inverted mixing.


However, if you record yourself saying "hello" twice (or record the guitar part twice), invert one recording and mix, it will sound exactly like regular mixing without inversion.


Quote:
I raise them both to a level that the rhythm guitar can still be heard the master volume peaks at around only - 16
If it sounds OK I wouldn't worry about it. You don't really need meters during mixing. Mix with your ears! Meters are important during recording, mainly to make sure you're not clipping your ADC.


And they can be useful during finalization/mastering, but IMO a loudness scanner that analyzes the whole file is better and more accurate than watching a meter...
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:08 AM   #5
fendertelemusik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVDdoug View Post
I'm betting these are not truly-separate recordings. The only way to get effective "subtraction" is to invert a copy and mix.


For example, if you record yourself saying "hello" (or record a guitar part) then make a copy, invert the copy (or invert the original), and then mix at the same volume level with no time-shifts, you'll get complete subtraction and total silence. If you change the level of one track, you'll get partial subtraction.


With a time shift you'll get comb filtering (addition and subtraction at different frequencies) and in some cases that can lower the volume too. With a time shift, inversion will give you "different" comb filtering than non-inverted mixing.


However, if you record yourself saying "hello" twice (or record the guitar part twice), invert one recording and mix, it will sound exactly like regular mixing without inversion.


If it sounds OK I wouldn't worry about it. You don't really need meters during mixing. Mix with your ears! Meters are important during recording, mainly to make sure you're not clipping your ADC.


And they can be useful during finalization/mastering, but IMO a loudness scanner that analyzes the whole file is better and more accurate than watching a meter...

sorry I might have confused folks the two perverse guitar parts and the chorus guitar parts are playing different things and were recorded seperetly and each have different guitar effects.

what I mean is the combo of the 2 in the perverse sit nicely with the rhythm guitar and when I get the 2 chorus guitars to sit nicely when it goes back to the preverse there is an overall dip in volume despite the 2 preverse guitars being louder.

what ill do is make a quick mix down of what ive done and you can hear if im just hearing things or its evident.
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:27 AM   #6
ashcat_lt
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Peak levels have very little to do with perceived loudness. The prechorus guitars are more dynamic than the others.
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:37 AM   #7
fendertelemusik
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sorry its all new to me all I know so far is how to record.. pan.. and adjust levels and use a bit of eq to remove any noise.

The rest is going to be a hard learning curve.. I was hoping I could produce a good sounding song using balancing and panning alone but it seems im going to need to do a lot more work as you will hear by my mixdown to follow.

I may even go as far as to say I probably hear things being louder and quieter than they actually are... maybe once you've heard my mix you'll be like wow that bass and drums are way to loud... and to me they sound right.. I don't think I have the ear for it.

anyways song to follow minus vocals ive just been trying to get the track right.
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:39 AM   #8
DVDdoug
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Quote:
sorry I might have confused folks the two perverse guitar parts...
Perhaps it is the perverse guitars!
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:43 AM   #9
fendertelemusik
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http://www.filedropper.com/newsong

Sorry its download only if anyone can share one that allows to play online I will put it up there... the one I found seemed to destroy the bitrate.
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:43 AM   #10
fendertelemusik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVDdoug View Post
Perhaps it is the perverse guitars!
they do sound quite creepy to be fair lol
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