Old 07-16-2019, 05:23 PM   #1
BenK-msx
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Default Transport order in the Default 6 theme

not a feature request - more a demand or the puppy gets it :

revert the order of the Transport buttons.. they are incorrect.

[ stop] <->[ play ] are a couple. a long lived successful relationship. in a double bed. similar size and shape.
and their neighbour with the red light on all the time is [record] - it's universal just google every transport control for anything.

record - play - repeat (large) - stop - pause (smaller) is messing with nature.

after the zillionenth mouse miss-hit just to STOP playback we can reach conclusions.

Thankyou in advance, because we all like puppies.





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Old 07-17-2019, 11:04 PM   #2
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not a feature request - more a demand or the puppy gets it :

revert the order of the Transport buttons.. they are incorrect.
Yes please!!!
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Old 07-18-2019, 02:29 AM   #3
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not a feature request - more a demand or the puppy gets it :

revert the order of the Transport buttons.. they are incorrect.

[ stop] <->[ play ] are a couple. a long lived successful relationship. in a double bed. similar size and shape.
and their neighbour with the red light on all the time is [record] - it's universal just google every transport control for anything.

record - play - repeat (large) - stop - pause (smaller) is messing with nature.

after the zillionenth mouse miss-hit just to STOP playback we can reach conclusions.

Thankyou in advance, because we all like puppies.




+1

Changing the transport button order from convention is all kinds of wrong.
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Old 07-18-2019, 04:05 AM   #4
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i agree on the upon comments about the transport.

one question i only use the official full release of Reaper,as i make all my music in Reaper,this new alpha wont work with the full release am i right??
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Old 07-18-2019, 05:23 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
not a feature request - more a demand or the puppy gets it :

revert the order of the Transport buttons.. they are incorrect.

[ stop] <->[ play ] are a couple. a long lived successful relationship. in a double bed. similar size and shape.
and their neighbour with the red light on all the time is [record] - it's universal just google every transport control for anything.

record - play - repeat (large) - stop - pause (smaller) is messing with nature.

after the zillionenth mouse miss-hit just to STOP playback we can reach conclusions.

Thankyou in advance, because we all like puppies.




+1

It's totally unintuitive !
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Old 07-18-2019, 05:53 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
not a feature request - more a demand or the puppy gets it :

revert the order of the Transport buttons.. they are incorrect.

[ stop] <->[ play ] are a couple. a long lived successful relationship. in a double bed. similar size and shape.
and their neighbour with the red light on all the time is [record] - it's universal just google every transport control for anything.

record - play - repeat (large) - stop - pause (smaller) is messing with nature.

after the zillionenth mouse miss-hit just to STOP playback we can reach conclusions.

Thankyou in advance, because we all like puppies.




LOL

Will the Media Explorer transport buttons be re-themed to match the left/right ordering?

(FWIW I like puppies too)
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Old 07-18-2019, 06:02 AM   #7
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The transport order was changed in direct response to user observation and discussion about the pause/stop interaction. I am well aware that change trips people up. It also no longer matches between transport bar and ME, which is A Bad Thing. Please never assume I do these things arbitrarily without considerable thought.

Making a mod of this theme with the old transport order would be trivial, beginner level stuff. You can use that. So; if you're in a mood to set aside your personal preferences and join me in a discussion about new users, I'm all for it. But I am painfully aware it is a change and that change is unpopular.

On that subject, when making a decision between two mutually contradictory paths, I have learned that '+1' posts are best ignored, because they provide me with no tangible foundation to base my decision on. Ten people saying '+1' could indicate 'a sizeable proportion of users think this' but to the same degree could indicate 'the only 10 people in the world who think this happened to post at this time'. So I'm none the wiser.
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Old 07-18-2019, 06:22 AM   #8
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The transport order was changed in direct response to user observation and discussion about the play/stop interaction. I am well aware that change trips people up. It also no longer matches between transport bar and ME, which is A Bad Thing. Please never assume I do these things arbitrarily without considerable thought.

Making a mod of this theme with the old transport order would be trivial, beginner level stuff. You can use that. So; if you're in a mood to set aside your personal preferences and join me in a discussion about new users, I'm all for it. But I am painfully aware it is a change and that change is unpopular.

On that subject, when making a decision between two mutually contradictory paths, I have learned that '+1' posts are best ignored, because they provide me with no tangible foundation to base my decision on. Ten people saying '+1' could indicate 'a sizeable proportion of users think this' but to the same degree could indicate 'the only 10 people in the world who thing this happened to post at this time'. SO I'm none the wiser.
I see your point. Whatever you choose will do fine.
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Old 07-18-2019, 06:37 AM   #9
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The transport order was changed in direct response to user observation and discussion about the play/stop interaction. I am well aware that change trips people up. It also no longer matches between transport bar and ME, which is A Bad Thing. Please never assume I do these things arbitrarily without considerable thought.

Making a mod of this theme with the old transport order would be trivial, beginner level stuff. You can use that. So; if you're in a mood to set aside your personal preferences and join me in a discussion about new users, I'm all for it. But I am painfully aware it is a change and that change is unpopular.

On that subject, when making a decision between two mutually contradictory paths, I have learned that '+1' posts are best ignored, because they provide me with no tangible foundation to base my decision on. Ten people saying '+1' could indicate 'a sizeable proportion of users think this' but to the same degree could indicate 'the only 10 people in the world who thing this happened to post at this time'. SO I'm none the wiser.
Sounds like it isn't going to change, but a rationale of why it has been changed would be appreciated, at a convenient time. I wouldn't presume that it was arbitrary or done without thought.
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Old 07-18-2019, 06:58 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
The transport order was changed in direct response to user observation and discussion about the play/stop interaction. I am well aware that change trips people up. It also no longer matches between transport bar and ME, which is A Bad Thing. Please never assume I do these things arbitrarily without considerable thought.

Making a mod of this theme with the old transport order would be trivial, beginner level stuff. You can use that. So; if you're in a mood to set aside your personal preferences and join me in a discussion about new users, I'm all for it. But I am painfully aware it is a change and that change is unpopular.

On that subject, when making a decision between two mutually contradictory paths, I have learned that '+1' posts are best ignored, because they provide me with no tangible foundation to base my decision on. Ten people saying '+1' could indicate 'a sizeable proportion of users think this' but to the same degree could indicate 'the only 10 people in the world who thing this happened to post at this time'. SO I'm none the wiser.
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Old 07-18-2019, 08:04 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
The transport order was changed in direct response to user observation and discussion about the pause/stop interaction. I am well aware that change trips people up. It also no longer matches between transport bar and ME, which is A Bad Thing. Please never assume I do these things arbitrarily without considerable thought.

Making a mod of this theme with the old transport order would be trivial, beginner level stuff. You can use that. So; if you're in a mood to set aside your personal preferences and join me in a discussion about new users, I'm all for it. But I am painfully aware it is a change and that change is unpopular.

On that subject, when making a decision between two mutually contradictory paths, I have learned that '+1' posts are best ignored, because they provide me with no tangible foundation to base my decision on. Ten people saying '+1' could indicate 'a sizeable proportion of users think this' but to the same degree could indicate 'the only 10 people in the world who think this happened to post at this time'. So I'm none the wiser.
My tone was fun as I was skirting the rule of no FR

Well I'd say new users have been primed by every bit of hardware and software in the world now and in the past with play and stop buttons next to each other a similar size.

(As an aside new users should of course be thought about but not over accommodated at expence of experienced users since they quickly become experienced users and are only ever a small percentage of total users)


At this point it's history/culture/convention whatever you want to call it, some user observations don't enter into it. Your users and discussion may be very valid and make sense but in this case it doesn't matter, stop is next to play!

E.g after discussion and user observations we decided the sea and sky being blue was confusing (it can be) so decided the sea is red and the sky is green.. changes can be upsetting at first but we are sure you will adjust!


Do many people mouse click pause anyway? Can you reveal the rationale your end for the re order?

Have used this new theme quite alot now and every time I waste time hunting to mouse the stop button.

It's not the adjustment to change that is an issue it's the nature of the change.

The instant reaction by users - ( some who love to disagree with me too! ) here is a clue.

Hope u mull it over.

Edit: if it's trivial for me to mod, white 'I make the themes' Tie can do it and do it better whilst shaving. So Thanks in advance for the Trad-Transport layout!!

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Old 07-18-2019, 09:27 AM   #12
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The transport order was changed in direct response to user observation and discussion about the pause/stop interaction. I am well aware that change trips people up. It also no longer matches between transport bar and ME, which is A Bad Thing. Please never assume I do these things arbitrarily without considerable thought.
No one is saying you aren't doing things without thought. What people are saying is that the record button has been in the same place roughly since the time tape machines had transports. In the same place in every piece of hardware we buy, every control surface, and every DAW. And if for some reason it isn't, the first question that is always asked is "why is the record button there?" It's an established precedent going back well before most of us were even alive, let alone working in this industry.

I don't care what kind of discussion was involved. That's just a reflection of both stupidity and arrogance. You don't just "overturn" an established industry norm like that. That's like saying, hey, I know turning the pan knob to the left usually pans left, but now it actually pans right. After discussion we felt that the way it currently works doesn't take into account people who are facing backwards while working. If you don't like it just face backwards...
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:59 PM   #13
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It's an established precedent going back well before most of us were even alive, let alone working in this industry.
So is having the right channel be colored red, not white. But I'm not going to bring that up.
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Old 07-18-2019, 04:55 PM   #14
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Both of you are conflating things which are commonly true into standards or conventions that, no matter the justification, can never be transgressed. You may think this to be true. Others think otherwise. I think otherwise. Both cases, at best, are more like "all things being equal, you might as well do it one of the ways its usually done, unless you have a reason not to."

In both cases I have a reason not to.

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I don't care what kind of discussion was involved.
That's not how this works, unless your name is Justin. I am balancing the needs, requests and expectations of a huge and diverse range of users. If you're not willing to join in with the spirit of that, and instead dictate to me that things must be the way you think they should be, there is no way I can blend that with the views of others and any need to compromise that the work puts in front of me.

Consider the way Pause works in Reaper, and the way Stop works elsewhere. Now consider that loop state is a function of the play button. Now consider that Record must be beside play, since in Reaper they work in tandem. Now consider that all of this has been thoroughly discussed, in depth and at length, with lots of people. That's the discussion you're so casually dismissing, and that's the kind of thing that only happens on the internet. We need to get past that if we're going to make this work.
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Old 07-18-2019, 06:31 PM   #15
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Consider the way Pause works in Reaper, and the way Stop works elsewhere. Now consider that loop state is a function of the play button. Now consider that Record must be beside play, since in Reaper they work in tandem. Now consider that all of this has been thoroughly discussed, in depth and at length, with lots of people. That's the discussion you're so casually dismissing, and that's the kind of thing that only happens on the internet. We need to get past that if we're going to make this work.
I appreciate the response and thank you for taking the time to do that. I understand what you are saying. I really do. My issue is that you are not giving us the use case. We're smart people. We want to help. When someone poses a question like this, just give us the use case. People might disagree but at least we are having a discussion at that point instead of making one-sided arguments which yes, happens way too much on the internet.

Yes, I understand there are reasons Record needs to be next to play. Not disagreeing with that AT ALL. What people are wondering is why it needs to be to the LEFT of the play button. If you could give a use case for that, it would go a long way. It's like getting a cancer diagnosis from your doctor. You may not be happy about it but it's really important information to have so you can find a solution to keep from dying...
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Old 07-18-2019, 07:10 PM   #16
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This is a joke, right? It seems that the main task of Reaper is to be different from other DAWs. At any price.

Seriously. Why such a button layout?

Is it user friendly for newbies who have switched from any other DAW? Not. We'll have to get used to the new location. It repels.

It's comfortable? Not. Often used buttons "Play" and "Stop" are now spaced and have a different size, it is harder to hit them with the mouse. Past the play button is now easier to miss and accidentally get into the record button.

Is this somehow logical? Not. Now the buttons are grouped in such a way that it is not justified either by what is reflected in the real world (tape recorders, as mentioned above), or from the point of view of the user's poor mode (usually a play-stop is ALWAYS near because these are almost the only buttons that are used by 95% of time).


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Now consider that loop state is a function of the play button. Now consider that Record must be beside play, since in Reaper they work in tandem. Now consider that all of this has been thoroughly discussed, in depth and at length, with lots of people. That's the discussion you're so casually dismissing, and that's the kind of thing that only happens on the internet. We need to get past that if we're going to make this work.
I understand it. This is more like an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_bias . Yes, we are all human and all subject to it, but it is important to realize this and stop in time. No need to "improve" what works well.
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Old 07-19-2019, 07:35 AM   #17
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For the life of me, I'll never understand why people think the best way to show that they should be taken seriously regarding their design choices or opinions is by demonstrating their lack of social and persuasive skills.

Watch this:

I respectfully disagree with changing the order of the transport buttons.

Was that hard? Less to read. Less to ignore and still respect the author.

Please. Value your time and the person who has to read it and assign it value. It's better for everyone.

Also, I have no opinion on transport buttons. I had no idea people actually hit them with a mouse as opposed to using them as indicators to what was going on.

I'm sorry. Let me re-phrase that so that everyone understands:

What kind of unprofessional idiot uses a mouse to hit buttons on the transport? Do you realize how inefficient and amateur that is?

How did I do?

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Old 07-19-2019, 07:50 AM   #18
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What kind of unprofessional idiot uses a mouse to hit buttons on the transport? Do you realize how inefficient and amateur that is?

How did I do?
It is your opinion. You made it perfectly!
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Old 07-19-2019, 08:10 AM   #19
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What kind of unprofessional idiot uses a mouse to hit buttons on the transport? Do you realize how inefficient and amateur that is?

How did I do?
You did poorly. I'd wager the majority of Reaper users use the mouse to activate the transport. I'd wager the majority of Reaper users are not "professional" like you. I'd wager the majority of Reaper users who aren't professional are also not idiots.
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Old 07-19-2019, 08:24 AM   #20
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White Tie. Your work is fantastic!
Feel free to reject my idea, because it's just an idea!!.

See the pic
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Old 07-19-2019, 08:59 AM   #21
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Oh ok! - my post got turned into a thread..
-

Tho I would say in kenny's direction -

having been here a while I know how WT posts as a fellow Brit and how he views challenges and how theme threads go - he got fire in the belly - I like it.

I wanted to make the point whilst not falling into the "please no feature request" stipulation.

Using 'humour' I made a serious point that it is a convention that stop is next to play and the same size. It obviously isn't a dictat but it seems do glaringly incorrect it seemed appropriate.

As far as persuasiveness, that is tied to attention and reaction.

In fact I've already politely mentioned this before, but you haven't seen that and Noone batted an eyelid - because it was bland..

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=614

Maybe the other guys were more blunt and need talking to, am sure WT can handle it, it's his favourite part of the process

Where pause comes into it is another matter, of couse needs consideration - and I do seriously wonder what percentage of mouse/transport interactions involve pause.
It's more than zero, but far less than play and stop.

I also asked if he would reveal the reasoning behind the change.

So moderator interjection & a tip video on how to post to white tie isn't really necessary!

Anyway - I'm sure white tie knows deep down he is going to change this before release because it makes sense - at the very least to give a traditional layout option.

so he may as well get it done - and all the annoying user posts go away... until the next thing!!

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Old 07-19-2019, 09:05 AM   #22
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Using 'humour' I made a serious point that it is a convention that stop is next to play and the same size.

Where pause comes into it is another matter, and I do seriously wonder what percentage of mouse/transport interactions involve pause.
It's more than zero.
Good point!
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:07 AM   #23
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...you are conflating things which are commonly true into standards or conventions that, no matter the justification, can never be transgressed.
<snip>
In both cases I have a reason not to.
I am not saying the convention of right=red can't be transgressed. But it IS a convention, at least for RCA connections, even in England.

I accept that you have justifications, but I don't believe you've ever shared them, so I respectfully request that you do.

If you do I'll never ask again, I'll just bug Lokasenna for the next nitpicky version. If you don't, I'll be back when Reaper 7 releases, and every version after that until I shuffle off this mortal coil.

PS See my signature for another convention which should be followed, and that one is actually scientific, not a matter of preference.
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:27 AM   #24
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This would be fine. Except that I have been repeatedly ask to make loop state as obvious as possible right next to the play button. I believe that is, amongst others, a PT thing ...and I solve it in my personal themes by doing lots of tarty things that aren't appropriate for the Reaper def. I can either say no to those people, or to these people.

After discussion, I made a decision. Is the decision done? No, further discussion is always welcome. But the discussion would need to be persuasive rather than shouty.

To, again, try to bring you up to speed with opinions and discussions had with other well informed Reaper users (that's people like you all, whose opinions I am reflecting, to you ...this isn't some designer doing what he wants): Pause in Reaper behaves like Stop elsewhere. Stop behaves like Stop + RTZ. MY previous attempt to contain this (stop and pause either side of play) didn't get it done, and separated from Record.

Stop is always next to Play, except in Reaper stop isn't stop. Record plays without needing to press play. We don't have an RTZ button. Tape recorders don't have loop. The ideation that this is a tape recorder is broken already, and not by me, and only remains useful for as much as it is useful, and that is an entirely subjective matter. It just is. Yes it is. No, let me stop you there, yes it is. It is. Yes, yes it is.

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white tie knows deep down he is going to change this before release so he may as well get it done - doubling down will go badly!
As a fellow Brit, perhaps you will understand the clarification that this is the character my work attitude is sometimes compared to by my colleagues:



Did you just try to threaten me?
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:34 AM   #25
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How did I do?
Great until you got to the idiot part I press them quite a bit and have 30 years of muscle memory behind that layout (actually if we consider my pre-console years, it's more like 45 years), even though I have a faderport, it depends on where my hand(s) are at that moment, therefore I'm an idiot, actual and logical fallacy. You are also omitting the times I use it in remote settings where all I have is my touch screen available on my Surface tablet. That said...

I respectfully disagree with the change.

Can someone please point me to this long discussion that led to the decision where this was decided? I must have missed it and would have gladly chimed in. Additional layouts if possible is a good idea but the default should match the convention.
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:37 AM   #26
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PS See my signature for another convention which should be followed, and that one is actually scientific, not a matter of preference.
Yea but many of us don't care because it changes the phase relationship between it and other tracks as the result of clicking it, and when "polarity" is reversed it's because waveforms are out of phase with each other respectively, so scientifically correct, practically pedantic in practice. So "their"
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:37 AM   #27
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After discussion, I made a decision. Is the decision done? No, further discussion is always welcome. But the discussion would need to be persuasive rather than shouty.
Could you make 2 or 3 layouts for Transport, which will cover 90% of people needs? It would be the best option, wouldn't it?
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:51 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Also, I have no opinion on transport buttons. I had no idea people actually hit them with a mouse as opposed to using them as indicators to what was going on.

I'm sorry. Let me re-phrase that so that everyone understands:

What kind of unprofessional idiot uses a mouse to hit buttons on the transport? Do you realize how inefficient and amateur that is?

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Think you did pretty good, Kenny! And I will actually answer your awesome question!

Professionals don't use the mouse to hit buttons on the transport very much. However, they do rely on it for visual reference. In fact, that is probably THE most important role of the transport. I can glance at it and see what is going on. What mode it is in, what measure number I'm in, etc.

So, now that we have established that yes, professionals do in fact use the transport, think about if you just move buttons around. For the longest time they've been in one place and now they are different. Kind of going to mess some people up, huh? I guarantee you, if you swapped the RPM and the MPH/KPH gauges on your car, it's going to seriously mess people up. It would not turn out well.

If you are going to go against a long-standing industry precedent going back to tape machines (the whole reason we have DAW transports to begin with), then there needs to be a REALLY good reason to go against that norm. Because it's going to mess people up. For example, I could record at 32kHz if I wanted to, but I better have a REALLY good reason for it because my client is expecting 48kHz deliverables and I better have a pretty damn good explanation for not doing that.

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This would be fine. Except that I have been repeatedly ask to make loop state as obvious as possible right next to the play button.
See, now we are getting somewhere. When you give a use case/explanation, instead of saying things like "no feature requests please" then people aren't going to react so vehemently. Or when you say, trust me there are reasons for what I do - instead of just giving the reason. Of course there are reasons for what you do. But if no one knows them, then people are going to jump to conclusions or do the opposite - not trust you.

Having said all that, if you and others strongly feel both loop and record should be directly next to play, my suggestion would be put loop to the left of play and record to the right. Then people who have been looking at transports for their entire career won't go into meltdown when their visual reference is in a completely different order.
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:59 AM   #29
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I use a remote and/or keystrokes for transport functions, so I only glance at the Reaper transport for visual feedback. I agree that this is a wacko layout...unconventional, to say the least. But, I do like the large play/record buttons for visual feedback. However, reversing the play/record buttons is troublesome. I always think of record as an "additive" function to play, even if it's a one button record scenario. Since Western culture reads left to right, anything "additive" comes on the right. Sure...play/pause/loop, I get that. But this play/record convention is a strong one, and shouldn't be ignored.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:12 AM   #30
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I don't understand why an additional "classic" transport layout couldn't be a part of the default theme. At the very damn least transport and ME transport should MATCH.

Reaper's default theme going to new lows, apparently...
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:34 AM   #31
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Adding my voice here. Completely agree on the transport issues.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
If you are going to go against a long-standing industry precedent
There is no such precedent, because Reaper's buttons do different things to a tape machine and not all tape machines are the same. This line of reasoning is not persuasive to me when people are asking for directly Reaper-related things.

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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
See, now we are getting somewhere. When you give a use case/explanation, instead of saying things like "no feature requests please" then people aren't going to react so vehemently. Or when you say, trust me there are reasons for what I do - instead of just giving the reason. Of course there are reasons for what you do. But if no one knows them, then people are going to jump to conclusions or do the opposite - not trust you.
The first post wasn't an invitation to a discussion, it was a demand. Someone even said they didn't care about discussion. What followed is the discussion. I'm always ready for a discssion, but I can't set the tone. Happy to have it now

No feature requests means no Reaper feature requests, because I'm not a developer.

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my suggestion would be put loop to the left of play and record to the right. Then people who have been looking at transports for their entire career won't go into meltdown when their visual reference is in a completely different order.
So, here's the list of things that absolutely must be right next to the play button:
  • Stop, because tradition
  • Pause, because stop because tradition except that stop in Reaper is pause.
  • Record, because the two operate in tandem in non-punch mode, and therefore have combined functionality, as users have repeatedly pointed out to me.
  • Loop, because it is a 'state' of the play button, and users have repeatedly asked for this.

I am unable to bash that square peg into the round hole I have been provided. Whatever I do, someone is going to complain and consider me stubborn if I don't do it their way. I am okay with this. You all need to be okay with me being okay with this.

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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
At the very damn least transport and ME transport should MATCH.
You're very sure of yourself to gainsay the results of extensive consultation while you're still at the beginning point, where you haven't noticed that they're not the same ever. Also, see all those people demanding that stop be next to play? Now look at the ME. Yeah.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:52 AM   #33
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White Tie. Your work is fantastic!
Feel free to reject my idea, because it's just an idea!!.

See the pic
I just gave a print on the screen, and changed the position of the buttons via Photoshop.
But we can imagine the position of the 'Pause' button in the position of the 'Stop' button and vice versa.

Last edited by Edison; 07-19-2019 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:54 AM   #34
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Could you make 2 or 3 layouts for Transport, which will cover 90% of people needs? It would be the best option, wouldn't it?
I've made it really easy to mod.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:59 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
I've made it really easy to mod.
Maybe, but it is easier for user to have already some "default" presets like a previous one, the current one and that with loop button centered.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:03 AM   #36
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Maybe, but it is easier for user to have already some "default" presets like a previous one, the current one and that with loop button centered.
Exactly.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:05 AM   #37
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Sure, maybe I could do some layout choices. Maybe I will. Experience, however, makes me 99% sure I would never, in my life, ever see anyone ever use them.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:09 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Sure, maybe I could do some layout choices. Maybe I will. Experience, however, makes me 99% sure I would never, in my life, ever see anyone ever use them.
Maybe it is because we can't change the layout from the right-click menu? I bet it would change a lot, but it is FR to Justin/schwa, not you.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:12 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
I've made it really easy to mod.
I look forward to using the official white tie version.

On principle there's no way I am making a layout so that stop is next to play at the same size. Too far!

You also know it wasn't really a 'demand', it's not kindergarten.
it was a demand for attention, plus the discussion is evidently circular and ends when you realise stop should be next to play at the same size..

That's it. I merely suggest we fast forward (hah) to the point where you make the change and/or make it an option.

Your argument also suggests all you prior themes and user themes were wrong. But they were born of discussion!

The process used to yield this outcome is faulty by any analysis of the responses as its neglected real world norms, history etc, so the system needs a tweak to be less bubbly.

That's normal.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:15 AM   #40
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I bet it would change a lot
^It would be helpful at minimum. I'll ask again, where's the thread where this was originally discussed? If it was private, I'll lend some respect to design by democracy being a mess but this particular convention-breaking change deserves a wider audience and feedback.
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