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Old 11-25-2011, 09:08 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
That's how you could compare old and new settings without ever overwriting existing values.
It does not matter if you overwrite anything, if you can return back to exact same state again, which sws snapshots allow.
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Old 12-04-2011, 06:36 AM   #82
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So, time for another round of small improvements to the design, and how it can be implemented.

First, the overall design, slightly enhanced. Details below.





Clicking on the command buttons (everything except for the WRITE TO options)
  • Single click - do to selected tracks
  • Double-click - do to all tracks


Step 1 - Enable, arm and show

The ALL button area acts like an override. For as long as it is active, the other buttons in the column will do nothing. When ALL is off, the other buttons have an effect. The only exception is the "Hide All" button in the Show column. It will actually clear all other buttons in the colum ,which is why it's at the bottom.

The benefit of using a override (for selected track(s) with a single click or all tracks with a double-click) is that you can keep ALL or a selective state alive.



Step 2 - Read and Write Enable
This changes the approach from suspending things, to enabling them.

The same rules apply. "All" overrides all the other buttons in the column. That way it's easy to toggle between ALL and a somewhat selective state.

Future improvements could deal with plugin classifications, so there could be a button for EQ and Dynamics as well.


Step 3 - Welcome to 2007

The actual goal of the Better Automation request. Write To funcitons, Preview, Capture and Snapshots, all in one system. It all builds on steps 1 and 2.


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Old 12-05-2011, 01:50 PM   #83
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[indent]
I realize the design in the previous post might be a little too taxing for Cockos to do. It is after all, buttons within buttons.

After trying various ideas, here is a new design that should fix that problem, and be as easy to implement(within reason) as current WALTER-coded panels are.

This depicts the option panels only. I'm still working on the central command panel. This is purely for options.


The small buttons at the bottom let the user hide parts of the panel that the least often accessed. They come in to play for preperation(activating stuff) and the occasional disarming, which would be almost completely unnecessary with the Read and Write enabling panels.


Also, as Dreq pointed out, the "Arm/Disarm" column actually doesn't make any sense. The "Write" column does the same job.

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Old 12-05-2011, 02:01 PM   #84
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I love it. The nice thing about breaking the two apart (the Options and the Commands) is that I'm sure while most users would eventually see some use for both they are likely to latch on to either one or the other as being applicable for their workflow. This allows them to basically bite off the part they can chew for now.

I'll also add that they are essentially two different concepts...

*the one managing the arming and enabling of some/all/any selected parameters for automation

*and the other managing the application of recorded automation passes to the timeline specifically regardless of how many parameters.

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Old 12-05-2011, 02:18 PM   #85
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Here are all elements.

The Preview/Capture/Write To panel, with quicksnapshots 1-8 on the side, and a button to call up the snapshot window. Bevels have been lowered a bit and the "Write To" button has been shrunk to only be a little wider than the options that control what it does.

The snapshot window for managing snapshots in a longterm fashion.

And the general automation option panel, which is the basic first step to a highly usable and efficient automation system.
The option panel is displayed in two states, controlled by the little buttons below.


And here is a brief list of required actions for one of the option columns. You can extrapolate the rest.

Read column
  • Toggle Read-Enable ALL for selected tracks
  • Toggle Read-Enable Volume for selected tracks
  • Toggle Read-Enable Pan for selected tracks
  • Toggle Read-Enable Mute for selected tracks
  • Toggle Read-Enable Send parameters for selected tracks
  • Toggle Read-Enable Plugin parameters for selected tracks

  • Toggle Read-Enable ALL for all tracks
  • Toggle Read-Enable Volume for all tracks
  • Toggle Read-Enable Pan for all tracks
  • Toggle Read-Enable Mute for all tracks
  • Toggle Read-Enable Send parameters for all tracks
  • Toggle Read-Enable Plugin parameters for all tracks

  • Clear all Read-Enable toggles
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:30 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plush2 View Post
I love it. The nice thing about breaking the two apart (the Options and the Commands) is that I'm sure while most users would eventually see some use for both they are likely to latch on to either one or the other as being applicable for their workflow. This allows them to basically bite off the part they can chew for now.
Yeah, that's the basic idea. Make it easy to use by showing stuff you're generally going to use a lot and make the rest easy to show and hide.
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:38 AM   #87
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Ok, the design has changed radically to be simpler and easier to use, scaling up in complexity as the user requires it.


Here is the complete design, revised in full detail.

Automation Button on TCP v18

How it works

All automation recording is done in to an automation pass buffer.



This automation recording buffer can be in multiple parts.




The user can commit, bypass or discard this recording with the Automation Button.

Alternately the user can also record an automation state instead of a complete pass by switching the automation recording buffer in to state mode. This switch between pass recording and state recording can be done in the context menu of the automation button, or the automation panel, detailed at the bottom of this post.

The recorded state can be commited with the options provided, bypassed or discarded.

The options to commit a state, which is one value for any parameter recorded, are determined in the context menu of the automation button for a track, or globally on the automation panel.

The default option to commit a recorded automation state is to commit it along the length of the time selection.




Top to bottom, Automation Recording Buffer is empty , filled and bypassed.

  • Button states indicate Automation Pass buffer filled, empty or bypassed

    The Automation Button will indicate whether an automation pass has been recorded on a track or not, by lighting up or being dark, similar to how the record-arm button indicates armed status.

    Click to commit the automation pass or state (manual mode only)

    ALT+click to empty the automation pass buffer. (only matters in manual mode)

    SHIFT+click to bypass the automation pass buffer, just like you do for sends.(manual mode only)

    CTRL+click to commit to all tracks (manual mode only)
  • The Context menu revieals the Commit Options first, of which there are two for selected and all tracks. The mode is indicated with a symbol on the button.

    • Manual
      The user has to click this button to commit an active pass to the track envelopes. If no automation pass has been recorded on the track, nothing will be commited, i.e. nothing happens.

    • Commit on stop
      The user doesn't have to do anything. Any recorded pass is commited as soon as the user stops transport. The user can loop around an area, playing with the parameters as he/she sees fit, and whatever was recorded.

      Special Note: Latch mode will not start reading back the existing recorded pass when coming around for a loop, but keep writing with the value the user has set so far, unlike Reaper v4.14 Latch mode, which will start reading track data as soon as playback loops around.

    • Manual (global)
      Set manual commit mode for all tracks. Clean slate.

    • Commit on stop (global) (default)
      Set Commit on stop for all tracks. Clean slate.
    • Commit source -> submenu
      • Automation pass (default)
      • Automation state (current values)

    • Commit target -> submenu
      • Automation pass area(default)
      • Time Selection
      • To Punch In (where the first parameter was touched)
      • To Session Start
      • To Session End

    • Auto Parameter Grouping -> submenu

      This is what Nuendo calls Touch-Assist. Maybe we should use that name for consistency.

      Sometimes the user may wish to write to all the parameters of a plugin. Thus, in order to write automation data, they'd have to touch each parameter at least once. This is not effective in some instances, which is why this function HAS TO EXIST.

      If "Auto Parameter Grouping"(or whatever its name will be) is ON, the user only has to touch one parameter of a plugin to put all of them in to a "touched" state.

      All parameter will then be recorded in to the automation pass buffer. If in Latch mode, they will stay there until transport stops. If in Touch mode, they will stay there for the duration of the match-out time after the user lets go of the controls. Thus, to write to all parameters briefly, only touch mode is necessary, but for writing contiously Latch mode should be used, so the user doesn't have to hold on to any one of the parameters all the time.

      • Off (default)
        When off, only the parameters you touch will be recorded.

      • On
        If one parameter of a plugin is touched, ALL parameters of that plugin are put in a touched state. This is also why Nuendo calls it Touch-Assist.

        It lets users quickly write a bunch of parameters of a reverb for example. Highly efficient.

    • Touch All Parameters and Touch All Parameters On All Tracks

      This function can be used to do what the automation mode WRITE used to do. It is almost never used. This can be done during playback and in STOP mode.

      The function puts all parameters of a track(or all tracks) in to the automation pass buffer. If the user wants to write a clean slate to a small area, all he/she needs to do is make a loop selection, activate this action, and hit play.

      To do this in non-realtime, use of the automation panel is recommended.

The Automation Panel

This panel is mainly used for setting state commit options, read/write enable control and snapshot handling.
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:03 AM   #88
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Massive amount of work and beautiful concept! ++
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:08 PM   #89
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Large panel update. Request updated as well.

Added commit log, snapshots and automation history description to the request.

Pass/State toggle used the same symbols as the automation button on the MCP/TCP.

Auto Group button to toggle automatic parameter grouping on and off. Touch one parameter of a plugin, and they all get touched.

Keep in mind that the yellow, green and orange button set will be grey if the automation recording buffer(yellow and orange) or the capture buffer (green) is empty.

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Old 01-06-2012, 01:15 PM   #90
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v20 of the large panel design. The automation button setup has not changed.

Improved the layout a bit to make the capture buttons a little more obvious in what functions they have.

Please note that any capture operation replaces what was previously in the capture buffer.

  • Camera Symbol
    Creates a snapshot entry in the snapshot list. The user is asked to enter a name with a reasonable default given so the user can just hit return.

  • Punch
    Copies the contents of the Capture buffer in to the automation recording buffer, replacing anything previously in the automation recording buffer.

  • Session
    Captures the state of every parameter in the session in to the capture buffer, whether active or not. Some folks will use this to save away alternate static mixes, and others to save away section settings.

  • Track
    All parameters on the selected track(s) are captured.

  • Ins
    All parameters of the plugin inserts from the selected track(s) are captured.

  • Snd
    All send parameters from the selected track(s) are captured.

  • Vol
    The volume parameter from the selected track(s) are captured.

  • Pan
    The pan parameters from the selected track(s) are captured.

On Stop and Manual commit modes are not represented in the mockups. The horizontal mockup displays the manual setting, which when clicked on would toggle to the On Stop setting, as displayed in the vertical mockup.

The On Stop setting is grey and dark because it's the default.


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Old 01-06-2012, 03:51 PM   #91
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Added lots of documentation to the request for the automation panel.
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:04 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick View Post
Massive amount of work and beautiful concept! ++
+1

5 characters.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:17 PM   #93
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Still to come is how to use the Snapshot Quickslots, the little boxes on the left of the larger panel with the numbers 1 to 8 in them.
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:08 AM   #94
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Panel design optimized for access to buffer slots.

Buffer Slot documentation added to request post, which btw is here:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2893

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Old 01-07-2012, 02:06 PM   #95
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Added the options panel in a smaller size. Please let me know if this is too small for you.




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Old 01-13-2012, 11:55 PM   #96
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Update 2012 January 13th
added a simple writeup of the basic functionality of the design
There is more to come that deals with the setup of automation.
Check it out and vote here:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2893
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Old 01-15-2012, 03:52 AM   #97
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Update 2012 January 15th

added illustrations to the basic function section, showing how playback of automation works when there is an automation recording buffer filled with data.
Still to do is the snapshot section for the Project Bay, and the interaction between the main panel and the bay.

Also, automation history needs to be planned out, as all the commit actions would do well to be separated from the normal UNDO cue. This way a branching system for commits can be established and controlled, again preferably from the project bay.

Since the project bay already carries a considerable amount of information, I would welcome ideas on how to better integrate the automation history and snapshot functionality. I've been busy planning the basic recording syste, automation button and autoamtion panel to give it the necessary thought.

So please post your ideas ooncerning snapshots and automation history here.

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Old 01-16-2012, 12:10 AM   #98
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Before any GUI structure can be designed, we need probably a common automation-discussion-language, which makes it possible to describe automation-related-ideas quickly, shortly, precisely, without creating any misunderstanding AND even if you never used any existing-professional-automation-systems you should still be able to understand the topic. In the end we talk of drawing/plotting curves in 2D space. x-axis is always time, at least I can not imagine any other musical scenario yet, y-axis is a value between min..max. To make it simple I will call y-axis TARGET, which is of course always between min..max.

Executive summary of above: Automation is drawing/plotting curve in 2D space, with x: time, y: target, e.g. volume of track1.


If we want to work with such plots, we need to use forces as from-point-to-target or from-timespace-to-target. Point is where the playing-cursor is. Target here, can be point or timespace.

A few "from-point" examples:
ex1. from-point-to-foreign-point
ex2. from-point-to-self-point
ex3. from-point-to-future-timespace
ex4. from-point-to-past-timespace
ex5. from-point-to-future-rest, meaning until end of project.
ex6. from-point-to-past-rest, meaning until start of project.

A few "from-timespace" examples:
ex1. from-timespace-to-self-timespace
ex2. from-timespace-to-future-timespace
ex3. from-timespace-to-past-timespace
ex4. from-timespace-to-future-rest, as explained above.
ex5. from-timespace-to-past-rest, as explained above.

So if we start our idea using a similar shortcut-language, the reader can quickly know what the other side is talking about, without having to read long tales. Any improvement ideas are always welcome. Such shortcuts could be used also for future-automation-action-names in Reaper by the way.

Last edited by TonE; 11-13-2012 at 05:04 AM. Reason: replaced all "region" terms with "timespace" as described in later posts
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:21 AM   #99
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The language you're using is pretty far away from the language people use in this scenario.

I'll attempt to translate. Please correct me I get it wrong.

Quote:
A few "from-point" examples:
ex1. from-point-to-foreign-point
I assume "point" is the current playhead location and "foreign point" is a location somewhere else. Or perhaps a "point" is an envelope point ? Or the punch-in location (I sometimes call it punch-in point as well), i.e. where the first automation was written for a particular parameter ?


Quote:
ex2. from-point-to-self-point
ex3. from-point-to-future-region
ex4. from-point-to-past-region
ex5. from-point-to-future-rest, meaning until end of project.
ex6. from-point-to-past-rest, meaning until start of project.

A few "from-region" examples:
ex1. from-region-to-self-region
ex2. from-region-to-future-region
ex3. from-region-to-past-region
ex4. from-region-to-future-rest, as explained above.
ex5. from-region-to-past-rest, as explained above.
Is "region" referring to the region as Reaper uses it, which is essentially a range marker ?

Or is it an item, so you might want to write the automation recordering layer in state mode, from item A to item B ? Items would define the selection boundaries.

Or is region just a time selection ?


The proper language for this subject is not that complex.

Playhead location, edit cursor location, time selection, punch in location, next envelope point, item, region, start of session, end of session.

Creating a new language for this subject won't really spark much conversation.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:45 AM   #100
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Quote:
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The language you're using is pretty far away from the language people use in this scenario.
..
Or is region just a time selection ?

The proper language for this subject is not that complex.
...Creating a new language for this subject won't really spark much conversation.
But writing long coded tales also not, in my opinion.

Point is a single point in time. Region is "time selection" of Reaper, but without any time selection, just used as a general term from English, without thinking of Reapers use. Just the time between t1 and t2, without any selections, objects... EDIT: Ok, replace the word "region" with "timespace", so there are no overlaps with Reaper-internal terms like time selection or region. So timespace := t2 - t1.

It is not about using proper language, it is about making life of other readers easier and preventing writing long tales trying to describe something and confusing others, or only me, where it could be much shorter and without any confusion. After the first sentence the reader should know if they are interested in that part or can jump over it, and not trying to decode first what is exactly meant in that chapter-of-the-tale.

Last edited by TonE; 01-21-2012 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 01-16-2012, 07:40 AM   #101
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I can spot absolutely no substance in your posts so far. Please think very hard about what you're posting next, because I will not engage you any further if you do not contrbute to the subject at hand.
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Old 01-18-2012, 04:11 AM   #102
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People may want to do some hands-on editing of their recorded automation.

The system knows what has been recorded, so how about commands to being those lanes to the users attention, i.e.
"Show lanes of changed parameters"
This commad would show the lanes of the parameters the user recorded anything for on the automation recording layer, or commited to the lanes themselves.

Letting the user edit
  • any automation in the automation recording layer

  • the automation lanes for the parameters last commited to, if the automation recording layer is empty

would be very helpful.


Also, how about letting the user define a few "preferred" envelope lanes show/hide configurations, just like we can save show/hide configurations for tracks ?

Or at least one, defined per track. This could live in the context menu of any envelope lane control panel. Toggling this view on/off would be available in the context menu of both an envelope lane and the TCP itself.

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Old 01-18-2012, 09:31 AM   #103
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Maybe the command should be:
"Toggle-show lanes of changed parameters"
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Old 01-21-2012, 06:05 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Also, how about letting the user define a few "preferred" envelope lanes show/hide configurations, just like we can save show/hide configurations for tracks ?
See also: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=95394
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:24 AM   #105
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I did an experiment on the weekend, remixing the first few minutes of the Extelevision Top10 2012 January in Protools with an Icon D-Command console at a friends post production room. I had mixed the show in Reaper previously.

I built a brand new session with all the consolidated elements just as quickly as in Reaper. Then I set up VCA faders for the signal groups, which saved me a lot of time because VCA control is pre-send and output on the slaves, plus the Icon lets you access all VCAs with a touch of a button.

Setting up plugins was just as quick or quicker than in Reaper.

Setting up automation was easy. That part cost a LOT of time in Reaper, and quite frankly I did less automation and creative mixing in Reaper because of it. In Protools, what takes a couple of seconds to press some buttons(Preview,find values, select area, punch, write), requires real-time writing and endless messing about with checkboxes and destructive write modes.


To sum it up, it was way more fun working with automation in Protools. I was more creative, faster and as a result more relaxed.

In Reaper
  • I cannot activate an entire plugin for automation instantly, for example via modifier+click on an MCP insert, or in the FX Chain, or the envelope window, which I hope I will never have to use exclusively for this task.

  • I cannot by default have all plugin parameters be automatable when instantiating a plugin

  • I cannot try out new values non-destructively on a per-parameter basis. Preview and the new automation request provides that.

  • I cannot selectively write to tracks with any kind of visual feedback to tell me I'm now writing only to the plugin parameter envelopes for example, which Protools could do at least thirteen years ago(around 5.0) with its first little automation panel. You could globally suspend writing for volume, pan, mute, plugins and sends, sends pan and send mute.

    The automaiton request provides all the feedback, all the easy to see and easy to use switches to control what you can write to and even what you can read from.

Overall, it was another sobering comparison.

In the editing department Reaper has its faults(Area Selection), but knocks Protools on its ass 95% of the time. I much prefer to edit to picture in Reaper, though please do not take that as an excuse to cease improving the video playback .


So yeah, I don't think I'll have as much fun mixing in Reaper as I do in Protools until this automation request, VCAs and envelope-enabling workflow improvements get done.

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Old 04-12-2012, 12:23 PM   #106
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Default transfer from tracker IID#2893

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Oh hell yeah +1000.
Please Reaper Dev's.... please build this!
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Originally Posted by Nick Morris
Would go nice with a decent control surface too.
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon
I find this quite complicated to understand, myself... Automation as it is now is pretty good in Reaper (that's not to say it couldn't be better), but this is obviously a high-class FR and not everyone would probably understand it fully, unless they're seasoned pros with thousands of hours of driving faders underway.

I'm not gonna vote for now. But I fear that this could make Reaper more complex than it should be. Just my 2 cents.
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These are actually pretty basic automation features. My analog console from the late nineties has this kind of automation set. Preview and a write to buffer is a great idea to include in Reaper.
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Bear in mind that a lot of Reaper users have never ever been near one of those. For them, this would be pretty much overkill.

Now I don't disagree with this request, I'm just expressing my concern. If it could somehow be made modular, or optional, so that we can keep on working with automation as we're working right now, that would be cool. But somehow I don't see that happening, as it seems that this needs quite an overhaul of Reaper's current automation facilities.
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well that's what a manual is for.. a professional DAW should not be made for people who are too lazy to read a handbook.

i dont see how this will make simple tasks more complicated though. pro tools has these features as well
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Originally Posted by TonE
What is the difference of this system to the available SWS snapshots?
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Originally Posted by Nick Morris
umm well, to start Snapshots are static. This is Dynamic Automation we are talking about.
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Please gents, use the discussion thread for talk.

thanks

(Too lazy to do all the darn transfer quoting now, coming back later)
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THANK YOU Airon!!! Thanks for encapsulating a comprehensive automation concept for Reaper. Excellent work!
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Originally Posted by danfuerth
100% on this as this is to say to the expensive consoles "FU"

That's the whole point of adding features to software so you can try to replace some of the hardware, so this is what the dev's should be looking at

Anyone that sees a Master on the group matrix but then the slave wont follow it, must be thinking WTF were they thinking?
phew ...
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:57 PM   #107
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Thanks Gofer.
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Old 07-05-2012, 04:52 AM   #108
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An interesting method of modifying automation and layering presets has been implemented in the Source Film Maker which is now in beta.

On the site you'll find some video tutorials. Starting with the tutorial 04.Manipulation and 05.Time Selection, the methods are demonstrated. Highly interesting stuff.


What we call the Automation Recording Layer in this request, the Source Film Maker calls the floating modification layer.

What's interesting is that this layer can have a fadein and fadeout area. This is something I hadn't considered for this request, because I didn't want to ask for too much up front. On the other hand, perhaps this is what will peak Cockos' interest in this request.

Also, it has a brilliant little procedural preset system that can add things like random wiggles in the envelopes.

Take a look at this shot from the 05.Time Selection video. Click on this image to get the full sized one (1080p 230kB).

The parameters selected in the left-most column can be manipulated either by hand or with the preset(upper half of second column) or direct controls(lower half of second column). Very cool.

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Old 07-05-2012, 07:22 AM   #109
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That's pretty slick actually.

Anyway... the automation requests you've made are pretty comprehensive, maybe too comprehensive, but great. Before all of that maybe it would be a good idea not to jump too far ahead, but to care for the smaller stuff first.

The very static nature of Reaper's envelopes is in direct contrast to the overall paradigm, imo.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:43 AM   #110
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Problem with leaping ahead in small steps is that people with little or no working knowledge of automation as it is used today, will inevitably make mistakes by relying on their own limited experience and knowledge of tools they are familiar with.

This is what happened with Reaper as Justin, Christophe and I presume Aaron(pipelineaudio) knew only Vegas, which to be nice was usable but had no workflows for automation recording surpassing that of a late 70s professional film mixing console.

It has to be a well-thought out system from the very beginning that offers ease of use to the beginning user and a depth of options that are both easy to learn and as fast as possible to use for the experienced user.

Anything inbetween is just admitting "we don't know any better and cannot be bothered to look beyond our own experience because it's too hard".

We simply cannot wait for Cockos to become seasoned veterans at making use of complex automation workflows, though I for one wouldn't mind if they got some training on both a Harrison MPCD4 console and an Icon D-Control. That would speed things up, giving them an understanding of what a mixer puts to use these days. It might even help them create a better system than the two we've proposed here.

But we'll never know until they create something. So it is. We've done our part, though I'm perfectly happy to to add whatever I can to whatever the developers need. It's all up to them.

Cockos must speak or just be spoken about.
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:11 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Problem with leaping ahead in small steps is that people with little or no working knowledge of automation as it is used today, will inevitably make mistakes by relying on their own limited experience and knowledge of tools they are familiar with.

This is what happened with Reaper as Justin, Christophe and I presume Aaron(pipelineaudio) knew only Vegas, which to be nice was usable but had no workflows for automation recording surpassing that of a late 70s professional film mixing console.

It has to be a well-thought out system from the very beginning that offers ease of use to the beginning user and a depth of options that are both easy to learn and as fast as possible to use for the experienced user.

Anything inbetween is just admitting "we don't know any better and cannot be bothered to look beyond our own experience because it's too hard".


Cockos must speak or just be spoken about.
This is what I have been assuming for a little while. My assumption of this runs into many aspects outside of the automation features as well.
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:12 PM   #112
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Hmm... Got here by looking for Write-to-all-enabled...

I will often bypass automation, tweak until happy, then select the desired section (intro, chorus, verse), parameters (vol, fx, pan, etc), desired tracks, then click write to all enabled....

The important thing is that auto is disabled and i am writing the current state of everything to the enabled time-selection/tracks/param-groups....

I can then re-enable auto in read mode to check the transition...

May need glide-times and some related parameters to make transitions smooth...

I just went and tested out SWS Snapshots / and reaper write-to-time-selection... Sounds like it could work but I couldn't get it fill the need... ANyway, any pointers are welcome!

Cheers,
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Old 09-04-2012, 04:41 AM   #113
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There's no glide.

There's no automation suspend, unless you want to do one parameter at a time, which is available in the envelope window as checkboxes. Since it's not practical, it cannot be used in productive environments.

Unless you manuall do the checkbox clicking, what you can write to is everything.

Keep all your tracks in READ mode and put the ones you want to write a specific value over a specific amount of time, defined by the time selection, in to WRITE mode. That way your values won't get lost, because Latch mode starts reading off the existing automation and does so on every loop start.

Note, that if you're looping to find your values, check the preferences for the change of mode at the loop end. You have to set it to stay on WRITE.

Once you have the values you want to write, fire off one of these three actions :
  • Automation: Write current values to time selection
  • Automation: Write current values from cursor to end of project
  • Automation: Write current values from cursor to start of project

That's it. That's all Reaper has and this miniscule feature set is why this request for a modern automation recording system exists. Vote for it and please state the reason for doing so here. It proably helps to also say what kind of projects you'd use it on.
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Old 10-21-2012, 06:47 PM   #114
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A friendly bump for the discussion thread of this awesome request.

JBurtner, if you're curious about whether or not suspending stuff is possible with this request, the simple answer is yes.

This is the option portion of the control panel:



As you can see you can control the reading, writing and arming of plugin parameters, plus enabling stuff, though that might need a slight redesign, since it would function on a selected track basis, unlike the others which should be global for normal mouse clicks, and selected-track with a modifier.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:57 PM   #115
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Slotting in an update of the main panel mockup to include building block illustrations, plus some small updates to how the option panels display a lit "ALL" status.

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Old 11-13-2012, 02:26 AM   #116
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Mixing a 5 Minute short in Reaper (Part 1)

A few months ago Cristin from Machinima Romania and me began collaborating to produce the soundtrack for the next installment of the Little Freemans series. He'd produce scenes front to back and I'd edit and mix the sound for it.

The result is here:


For the first scene the session ran 30 tracks. In the end the session ran 92 tracks. 4 for dialog(only two characters), 8 tracks for foley(walking sounds, cloth passes and misc movement sounds), 5 for music, 28 for effects, 30 for backgrounds. Two dialog/foley effect sends and three for the effects.

Click on the image to get the full-size session view (600kB)

Setup

I had setup one track template for all the tracks I was going to use. That template had fully activated and automated parameters for all plugin parameters. The two plugins were an 8-band Reaeq (HP,Lowshelf,4 peak bands,Highshelf,LP) and one ReaComp.

The dialog tracks required a static EQ up front, for which I used EQuick, because of its more flexible interface(zoom and variable size) for dealing with the room resonances in Cristin's dialog recordings. ReaEQ in general is fine too, though a little more laberous for some jobs. You cannot select more than one band at a time for manipulation in the GUI, and the bands cannot be automated to switch on or off. Virtually every other EQ in use lets you automate bands bypass switches. Not a biggy.


The effect sends were mostly delay and reverb effects. The Aether plugin I used needed to have each and every effect parameter activated by hand in the envelope window. No swipe activation or "activate that plugin" methods anywhere. This is a one-click operation in Protools if done by hand. The other method is to have all plugins have every parameter activated. Or the request features a button panel to control this sort of thing. There are plenty of other methods to make this easier.

Copying plugins to another track does not copy the automation or its plugin activation status. Only track duplication will do that. This would have been another time saver.

Moving plugins by ALT+dragging an insert in the mixer preserves the automation and the parameter status settings. So it's possible, just not provided for yet in the click+drag copying function.

Note, the "Cut fx" function in the FX Chain window does not include the automation and parameter status information.


There are some consequences because of these inadequacies.
  1. Using the "Insert Multiple tracks" function for post production is impractical if any automated plugins are necessary, because you can't specify which template to use when creating the tracks. Using an existing track as a template would help too.

    This would have been great, since we often deal with a large amount of tracks that need to be numbered sequentially.

  2. Being flexible with a plugin chain when putting together tracks for specific uses is discouraged.

    It takes such a long time to activate each parameter by hand that it becomes impractical to improvise during a mix. The user is dependant on track templates. Copying plugins requires hand-actvating every parameter on each plugin. When it's not practical, it's not usable.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:29 AM   #117
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Mixing a 5 Minute short in Reaper (Part 2)

The Mix

First, a clean pass of default values on all tracks was written. For this, the WRITE mode was used, and the "Write to time selection" was triggered. All tracks were then put in to READ mode.

Reaper was in fact quite slow at transitioning all tracks between modes. If only a few tracks were having their modes changed it was much quicker. For all tracks it took 5-6 seconds in the end, which is quite remarkably slow. This won't be necessary with the requested functions.


Most of the time the sequence of events went like this :

Put the tracks I was editing on in to WRITE mode, set general levels and make any predictable adjustments to the effect sends. Then place and edit the material on the tracks.

Change levels and plugin parameters, and make damn sure you never, EVER roll over anything but the material you want to automate. As Reaper has no read-suspend, preview mode or temporary automation layer to write to, you have to use the WRITE mode. It's the only mode that doesn't read any automation when the loop comes around. Highly destructive but it's the only way. Sometimes I'd write a quick pass before dropping in material and work in READ mode, just to be safer, and then mix the material in a second WRITE pass.


VCAs would have helped a lot in some cases, because I can pre(-post-fader)-send trim a lot of tracks with just one fader. There is no substitute for that. It would have made mixing the shootout sequence where I had 20 tracks of gun sounds of alternating perspectives playing much easier to control.

As you might remember, WRITE mode ploughs through all armed parameters, so grouping the tracks and WRITE'ing to them was not an option because it would have destroyed a lot of volume rides, panning automation and EQs. All I wanted to do is control each set of perspective groups. I could have create a VCA for each and trimmed them with this remote offset control in a few seconds.

Instead I had to laberously grab all faders of a perspective and repeat the volume rides over and over again in Latch mode, until I got it right. What could have taken two passes, took almost 30 minutes of work overall, as I made upward of 40 passes, several per perspective, just to redo the volume rides I'd already done at a different volume level.



Sends

Adjusting the sends in particular was a major pain, because for one the GUI in the mixer got highly unresponsive as the number of tracks grew. The GUI drawing was set to always be lazy but setting that to a different method didn't help.

As I usually set the levels during playback (live listening), after letting go of each send meant at least a second of GUI freeze and any other send being unresponsive. A quick click+drag on each send was impossible. You had to wait a while until the send controls became responsive again.

As the sends can only be directly controlled from the Mixer this is the only method I had. Calling up an extra window each send was not really an option. What I did do was call up the I/O window on the send effect. That's a good feature. You really should improve responsiveness in the Mixer though. Letting people place FX Parameter knobs on the TCP for send levels would help too.


Grouping of sends, temporary if necessary could have saved a fucking shit-ton of time as well. Here are some methods that would have seemed intuitive to me in Reaper :
  1. (TEMPORARY) Right-click+dragging to Marquee-select sends for temporary grouping in the Mixer.

    This would be made easier of the user could graphically organize sends(and inserts) so things you want lined up, do line up. Just stacking them only seems efficient, until ask what it's actually efficient for.

  2. (TEMPORARY) Select tracks, then CTRL+SHIFT drag to manipulate sends with the same destination on selected tracks.

  3. Have a way to create groups that link only sends and make them easily bypassed and activated for the occasions when you need them. The same goes for inserts btw. You'd be surprised how often that is used on Harrison consoles.

What I missed and the request provides
  • Writing of touched parameters / parameters of a touched plugin / only plugins / only volume / only sends across a time selection.

    I always have to deactivate things I don't wish to write to by hand on each and every track.

    Preview mode or the requested automation recording layer quite simply provides that, just like every Harrison console, Protools or Nuendo does.

    Everything you touch (with options to then make the entire plugin touched which Nuendo calls touch-assist) is no longer read from automation tracks but from the temporary automation recording layer. That layer can be a single value or a complete pass. And when you're done and are happy, you can write the result to the tracks, or to the time selection, or purge it.

    No existing automation can be overwriteen by mistake, which is very easy with the simplistic WRITE mode that Reaper provides.

    Want that reverb send a little lower and cut a little more 4k across that effect without disrupting the volume or any other automation ?

    Touch, listen, select, commit. It could be that easy, instead of opening the envelope window, disarming everything but the things you want to change, then reactivating them when you're done.

    One method let's users be creative quickly and without fuss, the other method imposes spreadsheet management duties on the user most of the time.

  • Fast Access to the envelope of one parameter across multiple tracks.

    Not possible. Every lane has to be hand-called on every track, except for Volume and Pan. Since you guys have not yet gotten around to reforming the envelope display methods on the track itself, the user has to display envelopes in lanes most of the time, because anything else is unpractical. Calling up lanes blows up the visual track layout, whereas being able to display an envelope on the track, on all tracks with a modifier, would help fill that gap. Maybe even expand the "modifier+select parameter from list" method to exposing new lanes across more tracks.

  • Selection and editing of envelopes across multiple lanes and tracks.

    Weird. Having to a select each lane before being able to maniuplate them is a consequence of the marquee-only selection. Btw, if you change the "Track" context to select item+time-sel, this fumbles up the envelope lane area-selection style method. Already written about this in the Area Selection discussion thread.

    Copy and pasting a piece of an envelope that contains no envelope points is not possible either. This actually makes clearing sections of an envelope fairly easy. Copy/pasting a constant value.
Conclusion

Mixing sound for video/film requires speedy and efficient automation handling features.

Reaper has some of the features you need, at the barebones level, and it works if you tread carefully and have a lot of time. In this case it wasn't a commercial project and I did have the time. Usually I don't.

Reaper can record, edit and to a certain degree mix efficiently with a fuck-ton of customization options to boot. It will not be used for mixing films of any length by almost everybody in its current state. Its automation recording features are too primitive and laberous.

And I want that to change, because Reaper is still the most promising player, being accessible and customizable like no other.

Please make it so as quickly as you can manage to.

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Old 11-13-2012, 05:13 AM   #118
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It would be useful with any more complex request or idea, explaining

0. starting-state = initial state = start
1. made assumptions list for starting-state from above
2. ending-state = goal

Always using general terms. See also my above suggestion using the distinction among "point-to-target" vs. "timespace-to-target". So we can QUICKLY know the goal, if you want to "plot" a point to target or a "set of points = timespace" to target. And always WHERE is target in relation to point or timespace?

The made assumptions list is important for checking if there are any "mistakes" already in the made assumptions? If yes, nobody needs to continue with those ideas, as first those FALSE made assumptions should be corrected.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:29 AM   #119
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Anyone mixing just about anything using automation will be able to relate to the problems discussed above.

What I certainly don't want to have happen, is the developers reinventing a wheel and falling behind even further.

If that had been my intention I would have just told them about the list of things such as, Writing of touched parameters / parameters of a touched plugin / only plugins / only volume / only sends across a time selection , fast Access to the envelope of one parameter across multiple tracks, selection and editing of envelopes across multiple lanes and tracks, [i](temporary and bypassable)linking of sends, EQs(of the same configuration) and any other identical insert.

But these people are not professional mixers, and I don't want them half-assing their way to a solution over the course of several years.

This kind of stuff cannot be defined by amateurs, when it's intended to be used by craftpeople, not just hobbyists, short of any good ideas someone has.

Like I said some time ago, I'll make free tutorial videos if this professional stuff gets built, so everyone can have an easier start at using it.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:19 AM   #120
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Quote:
As Reaper has no read-suspend, preview mode or temporary automation layer to write to, you have to use the WRITE mode. It's the only mode that doesn't read any automation when the loop comes around. Highly destructive but it's the only way.
To understand this part we have to read your tales or what? Then checking your tales for any potential "mistakes"? Who knows what you mean with those words and what kind of assumptions you made each time? Who checked those assumptions for correctness? What were your start states? What the goals each time? Precisely, with the assumptions. I even think, a normal forum like this one is not really good for discussing such complex topics, only a wiki, with a word-by-word, sentence-by-sentence analysis, might allow atomic corrections. How much work was done for finding AVAILABLE WORKAROUNDS? Zero? Why zero?

I want for any idea and term
0. starting-state
1. made assumptions list
2. goal

as short as possible, no tale writing. I mean tales are ok, but NOT without writing what the starting-state is, what the made assumptions are, what the goal is?
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