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Old 02-15-2020, 01:17 PM   #1
thermos
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Default Volume Envelopes: finer resolution possible? 1/100th of a DB?

Yes, you read that right. Wondering if it's possible. Currently I'm only able to get .2, I'd love .1, and there is a client I'm working with that expects .01.

THANKS!
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:29 PM   #2
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seems ridiculous to me.... who can hear that amount of diff?
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:30 PM   #3
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seems ridiculous to me.... who can hear that amount of diff?
Doesn't matter. I have a client that expects it. And this level of detail is part of their brilliance, so its not worth arguing.
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:43 PM   #4
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maybe try and write a js fx or something that pretends to show this level of detail - obviously no-one can discern such a small difference so you just need a visual for psychological reasons
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:44 PM   #5
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maybe try a write a js fx or something that pretends to show this level of detail - obviously no-one can discern such a small difference so you just need a visual for psychological reasons
HAHA thats a good idea. To be honest I feel like they might be able to hear it. Kind of genius level. Thanks for the suggestion. If anyone else has any ideas....
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Old 02-15-2020, 02:19 PM   #6
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Don’t write a JSFX that PRETENDS to do this—it’s quite easy to write one that DOES allow such fine volume adjustments (and perhaps one already exists).
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Old 02-15-2020, 02:20 PM   #7
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i'm really curious as to why you think they have this ability and at what frequencies they claim to be able to do it?
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:00 PM   #8
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Silly request.
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:02 PM   #9
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Man I’m confused! Volume envelopes show two decimals of precision right there on the screen, and if you go to Set Value you can type in two decimals. It’s probably tough to hit exact values with the mouse, though of course that’s as much a matter of zoom level as anything else. What am I missing here?
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:09 PM   #10
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Man I’m confused! Set Value
Thats what I needed! Thank you so much
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:18 PM   #11
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Man I’m confused! Volume envelopes show two decimals of precision right there on the screen, and if you go to Set Value you can type in two decimals. It’s probably tough to hit exact values with the mouse, though of course that’s as much a matter of zoom level as anything else. What am I missing here?
OOH, how do you type in exact gain values for files/takes?
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Old 02-15-2020, 05:02 PM   #12
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apply a volume envelope to the item
type in a volume value in "set envelope point value"
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Old 02-15-2020, 05:07 PM   #13
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apply a volume envelope to the item
type in a volume value in "set envelope point value"
That I got. I just mean actual non-automation media item properties.
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Old 02-16-2020, 11:18 AM   #14
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Nope, I don't believe you can do it. volume/pan is like the only thing on that dialog that you don't seem to be able to type-in. You could add JS volume/pan smoother (or whatever) as take fx.
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Old 02-16-2020, 11:38 AM   #15
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Doesn't matter. I have a client that expects it. And this level of detail is part of their brilliance, so its not worth arguing.
Lose them.
Seriously! If they are more interested in playing make believe than creating music, this specific thing is only their first round. They aren't listening or interested and things are only going to get weirder. A successful recording isn't their goal or even on their radar.

Be professional. Try busting them with an A/B test and then pointing it out. Try to get at what they 'really want to hear' if you think they might be serious but delusional. If they're just stubborn and keep at it, tell them you can't work with "magic" or "fantasy" and you can't in good conscience take their money and pretend you do. Sorry about the disagreement if we want to call it that. There's no charge for today and I wish you guys the best of luck.


Don't bs them. When it comes out, shit will hit the fan.
Like the folks around here using the Protools or Logic themes to trick their customers. All hell breaks loose as soon as you get busted for that and you are 100% in the wrong now. None of the delusional crap from them is in the equation any more.
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:43 PM   #16
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Lose them.
Seriously! If they are more interested in playing make believe than creating music, this specific thing is only their first round.
Sometimes if you are a working studio clients like this can at least fund the REAL talent that walks in the door. A mate of mine used to pay for his studio with a bunch of german clients who would come over to where his studio was, rent it for a month and then widdle about meaninglessly, but they WERE having fun, as they kept coming back. Sometimes you just have to put that business hat on.
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Old 02-16-2020, 02:37 PM   #17
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Sometimes if you are a working studio clients like this can at least fund the REAL talent that walks in the door. A mate of mine used to pay for his studio with a bunch of german clients who would come over to where his studio was, rent it for a month and then widdle about meaninglessly, but they WERE having fun, as they kept coming back. Sometimes you just have to put that business hat on.
Yeah, I was a little quick with that comment!
If it's not a problem it's fine. Not so serious clients can still be cool.

I suppose I was thinking of the type that looks for excuses and the elusive 'studio magic' button of the week. These types can come at you from left field sometimes with wild unreasonable requests. (Not malicious, just clueless.) Combine that with trying to guide them down a budgeted path and it can be trouble sometimes. That's all.
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:08 PM   #18
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Nope, I don't believe you can do it. volume/pan is like the only thing on that dialog that you don't seem to be able to type-in. You could add JS volume/pan smoother (or whatever) as take fx.
Thank you!
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
Lose them.
Seriously! If they are more interested in playing make believe than creating music, this specific thing is only their first round. They aren't listening or interested and things are only going to get weirder. A successful recording isn't their goal or even on their radar.

Be professional. Try busting them with an A/B test and then pointing it out. Try to get at what they 'really want to hear' if you think they might be serious but delusional. If they're just stubborn and keep at it, tell them you can't work with "magic" or "fantasy" and you can't in good conscience take their money and pretend you do. Sorry about the disagreement if we want to call it that. There's no charge for today and I wish you guys the best of luck.


Don't bs them. When it comes out, shit will hit the fan.
Like the folks around here using the Protools or Logic themes to trick their customers. All hell breaks loose as soon as you get busted for that and you are 100% in the wrong now. None of the delusional crap from them is in the equation any more.
This person is top of their field, and world renowned. This level of detail, though sometimes misguided is what can make the difference between someone good and someone great. Those are NOT the times to be a teacher.

Anyway, doesn't matter. I got my answer, yay.
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Old 02-16-2020, 07:55 PM   #20
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I wish I had some clue what in the world you are trying to accomplish here. What exactly is the client asking you to do? What is the context for him/her thinking they require such a trivial adjustment? I used to be an acoustic engineer, and the most expensive sound level meters you can buy (type 1) are only accurate to +/- 1dB, so this can’t really be about anything discernible to a human ear.
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Old 02-16-2020, 09:35 PM   #21
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II've run into "golden ear" clients on the live side, and yes, a HALF dB change in monitor level balance has been asked for, given, and identified. In theory, you can't "hear" a half-dB change, particularly in the LOVELY acoustic situations like theatres with fly lofts! In practice, however, it's more about the "feel" than it is what is heard. In the end, it's the client's request, and scientifically provable or not, is at least something in the realm of reality that we CAN do. "Make it more brown" is the type of request that makes me take to the Grey Goose at the end of the night.
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Old 02-16-2020, 10:37 PM   #22
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Sound guy - read my post. You cannot hear or “feel” those kinds of partial dB changes. It is literally more meaningless than asking to “make it more brown”...
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Old 02-16-2020, 10:54 PM   #23
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As a singer for hire, I've had insane requests that didn't make any sense whatsoever. And quite a few that basically made the song WAY worse. (I was actually asked to sing off tune by 50 cents.. precicely 50 cents)

So as long as the customer pays, I just say yes. It's not my song. I'm not putting my name on it. Who cares if he can hear it or not. Just do it.



You can left click on the automation, or the automation point, and you'll get a menu. In that menu, you have "set point value". That value can be set at the second decimal. You can even create a shortcut for it if you want.

Who cares if even the gods can hear it or not. What's important is that the customer is happy with it.

Now, if I'm getting credit for the song, and the customer is asking for some crazy bat shit.. I might argue.

I wouldn't argue for .01 DB though, even if I get credit. I'd just say "yes sir", do it, and move on.


One thing for sure though, make sure you get paid by the hour, not by the song, if he's asking you to mess with that kind of details
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Old 02-17-2020, 02:34 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
Lose them.
Seriously! If they are more interested in playing make believe than creating music, this specific thing is only their first round. They aren't listening or interested and things are only going to get weirder. A successful recording isn't their goal or even on their radar.

Be professional. Try busting them with an A/B test and then pointing it out. Try to get at what they 'really want to hear' if you think they might be serious but delusional. If they're just stubborn and keep at it, tell them you can't work with "magic" or "fantasy" and you can't in good conscience take their money and pretend you do. Sorry about the disagreement if we want to call it that. There's no charge for today and I wish you guys the best of luck.
You really made my inner hippie tremble with disgust. Expecting artists to be rational is completely ridiculous, it's like employing only manicured plumbers.
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Old 02-17-2020, 02:40 AM   #25
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Reaper internally has this resolution between automation points (it's 32-bit floating point). It just doesn't show all the decimals, which is good, because it'd be crazy and unworkable otherwise.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 02-17-2020 at 02:47 AM.
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