Wouldn't it be a good option to have some kind of visual guidance (like a grey note like in Sibelius before you enter a note with the mouse) so it's easier to see which note will be entered instead of just the pencil ?
here's what notation must look like when it follows the rules for ornaments above and dynamics below the score.
In the current version its all above the system and makes it difficult to see to wich row it belongs when you have more than one row.
Can't get that to open. In any case, the notation I use, Notion, doesn't always do things the "right" way either. But I'm not expecting Reaper's notation to even approach sibelius or finale, just be a tool for composing and arranging, and be exportable to a dedicated notation program.
I can totally be down with the idea that reaper's notation should be usable, printable, and exportable. It does NOT have to be extensive, at least right now.
I'd love it to have chord symbols - but I'd also love to see a chord "Track" anyway... probably veering off topic
I will let the developers worry about placing limits on what can be done and what it should aspire to be; they're the only ones in the position to judge whether an apparently trivial feature request might involve two weeks of coding, or an apparently huge request means simply spending a few hours adapting and bolting on code from another purpose. We are not in that position; our job is to test and report, and propose features that we as professionals would find useful. Sorting those into priorities vs practicalities is the devs job.
There's clearly enormous interest in the new notation editor (looks like the busiest threads on the prerelease forum by a long shot, including lots of folks who haven't been heard from on the issue). If the devs had paid any attention to all the "you shouldn't" posts this wouldn't exist at all. I can predict with complete confidence that this is going to crack new markets for Reaper rather than simply pleasing existing users, and that's the "eyes on the prize" endgame. Everything we can do to help Reaper hit the bullseye for those markets strengthens the platform.
There's clearly enormous interest in the new notation editor (looks like the busiest threads on the prerelease forum by a long shot, including lots of folks who haven't been heard from on the issue). If the devs had paid any attention to all the "you shouldn't" posts this wouldn't exist at all. I can predict with complete confidence that this is going to crack new markets for Reaper rather than simply pleasing existing users, and that's the "eyes on the prize" endgame. Everything we can do to help Reaper hit the bullseye for those markets strengthens the platform.
At what expense? The mountain of FRs have only started to spring up as I predicted.
Like you said it's not for us to determine how much work is needed to implement any given feature, however this doesn't help at all with MIDI editing being still incomplete because there's no way to edit Note Aftertouch, I'd rather them finish up MIDI editing first which is obviously needed for composing for the rest before even going to add more to notation, looks like it's taking all of schwa's time since I didn't even see him post about anything else anymore.
Can't get that to open. In any case, the notation I use, Notion, doesn't always do things the "right" way either. But I'm not expecting Reaper's notation to even approach sibelius or finale, just be a tool for composing and arranging, and be exportable to a dedicated notation program.
Yes but as I said before, it has nothing to do with a fully packed editor like sibelius or finale, even a tool "just for composition" must follow rules, a wrong graphical presentation is useless for guys who read music. I can look on a orchestra score and tell you within seconds whats going on, a wrong written score is just wrong.
So it's ESSENTIAL where signs are placed, wich direction stems go and so on...
just pointing to things that are not right at the moment, though schwa is doing a GREAT job!
Yes but as I said before, it has nothing to do with a fully packed editor like sibelius or finale, even a tool "just for composition" must follow rules, a wrong graphical presentation is useless for guys who read music. I can look on a orchestra score and tell you within seconds whats going on, a wrong written score is just wrong.
So it's ESSENTIAL where signs are placed, wich direction stems go and so on...
just pointing to thing that are not right at the moment, though schwa is doing a GREAT job!
Yup. +1 : that which is displayed - whatever that may be - must be displayed correctly. And ditto on the great job!
Dynamics are above the staff presently because we also support lyrics, and it's simplest to have a fixed dynamics lane above and a fixed lyric lane below.
We can add more options for placement later after things stabilize a bit.
We can add more options for placement later after things stabilize a bit.
Sounds like a good plan to me
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Pcartwright, there was a FR/suggestion I mentioned earlier and I wonder if you could add it to the list? For eventual consideration:
Currently, the selection bar colouring is drawn from the midi note colour map's lower half. This presupposes that the particular colour map (which change from theme to theme) applies colour to selected midi notes in a traditional way. However, in my Default Commala theme mod, for example, midi notes turn black when selected, with a coloured outline. This is a feature of Lamda's themes as well, which is where I got it.
The selection bars in notation editor are all black when using these themes, instead of taking the intended colours as designed for velocity, channel, and pitch (in this case, the outline colours).
This sharing of the colour definitions from the midi note colour map for the notation editor isn't ideal, because the piano roll and notation editor are separate in terms of UI and thus have different design requirements. What is ideal for one won't work for the other, and design compromises must be made that ultimately may not be optimum for either.
I'd like to suggest a new line(s) to the midi note colour map dedicated to the notation editor, or a a second, dedicated colour map altogether.
The notation editor represents a significant expansion of Reaper's abilities that merits a likewise expansion of the UI framework to support it in all respects, without overrelying on extant UI elements and definitions
Do we have a way to create ties across bars? I can see if we draw across a bar-line in the piano roll it creates a tie in the score view but how do we do it from the score view?
There's an action called 'Join notes' or something like that. It will create a tie assuming the notes are the same pitch.
Pcartwright, there was a FR/suggestion I mentioned earlier and I wonder if you could add it to the list? For eventual consideration:
Currently, the selection bar colouring is drawn from the midi note colour map's lower half. This presupposes that the particular colour map (which change from theme to theme) applies colour to selected midi notes in a traditional way. However, in my Default Commala theme mod, for example, midi notes turn black when selected, with a coloured outline. This is a feature of Lamda's themes as well, which is where I got it.
The selection bars in notation editor are all black when using these themes, instead of taking the intended colours as designed for velocity, channel, and pitch (in this case, the outline colours).
This sharing of the colour definitions from the midi note colour map for the notation editor isn't ideal, because the piano roll and notation editor are separate in terms of UI and thus have different design requirements. What is ideal for one won't work for the other, and design compromises must be made that ultimately may not be optimum for either.
I'd like to suggest a new line(s) to the midi note colour map dedicated to the notation editor, or a a second, dedicated colour map altogether.
The notation editor represents a significant expansion of Reaper's abilities that merits a likewise expansion of the UI framework to support it in all respects, without overrelying on extant UI elements and definitions
Don't know if maybe this is a possible planned feature - but could we get two
"options" so we could get the "hybrid" view? Showing the "duration" in bars but just hide the notes?
Thought I'd throw this in the FR from an earlier post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryg
...While I'm on the "visual organization" topic, sequential rehearsal letters (A, B, C etc) would be great too. Interaction between them and markers ("create rehearsal letters at markers", and/or "insert marker names at rehearsal letters" for things we might have already marked like "Verse 1") would be great too...
pcartwright, I'd previously collected up the FRs in the past notation thread but it was overtaken by the release, so here's some things people had to say in that previous thread. Some of them are redundant, some are already implemented; I'll leave their relevance to your own (much better organized) feature list to your judgement.
Quote:
REAPER NOTATION FEATURE REQUESTS
Collected and organized from different threads - all essential core features for any score editor.
BASIC STAFF DISPLAY:
Key signatures: correct display of enharmonics, e.g. note number 48 A# correctly displayed as A# when in the key of F#, but displayed as Bb when in the key of F. In minor keys, the “leading tone” is preferred (e.g. in the key of Am (no sharps or flats), G# will be preferred by default over Ab)
Correct keys for transposing instruments - allow two views: transposing score/non-transposing score
Visual quantize (to help keep the score easy to read - http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=131)
this is actually the same as: “interpretation mode” (aka “quantize view”): loosely played MIDI is “interpreted” by the score editor and displayed, i.e. notes that are a bit shorter or longer than a quarter note are displayed as a quarter note (instead of notated as say a triple dotted eighth followed by a 64th rest)
and: Played notes interpretation
and very close to: minimum rest duration setting... for having not too many rests popping up whilst editing, and for interpreting notes of imperfect length correctly. Ideally it needs to be variable too.
Option for continuous view (staves continue to move from left to right with no system break)
multiple staves/systems for editing and viewing
multiple midi channels in same item in the same staff (“voices” feature from Logic/Sibelius etc)
selection tool to draw a frame around an area which will then be insertable as graphic in an office-software like in logic audio 5.5win (copy & paste graphic export)
Printing (of course :-))
in piano notation (two stave), allow RH and LH to be on separate “voices” so the voices can freely cross the staves
note heads - for the moment, regular, X, slash with stem, slash without stem. Will post in more detail as time goes by.
decent complement of bar lines: regular; double; final; right repeat; left repeat; invisible
multiple endings for repeated sections (1st, 2nd, etc, but also user definable)
Tuplets (e.g defining if triplet 1/8 or 1/16 note)
MORE ADVANCED STAFF DISPLAY
Text in score assignable as midi event (text “arco” assignable to, say, a C0 for use as a keyswitch). Save-able *per instruments* (different instruments might require entirely different notes as a keyswitch to e.g. “arco”- say C0 for violin but C5 for double bass - it will make no sense to make these global). Maybe a save-able “instrument profile” that can be assigned to a track - bonus points for providing us with a way to export banks of these templates and share them with others (e.g. a Kontakt VSL Strings Template).
Formatting options to arrange bars (e.g. Sibelius - “keep bars together” i.e. they don’t break at line returns, and “line break” so you can impose them on bars
“cue notes” - ability to paste in a bit of notation from another track that will display in small “cue-size” for musicians to, say, follow along during rests.
Rehearsal letters (including “insert rehearsal letters at all double bars”. Dynamically recalculating would be great (insert A, B and C - now delete B, and rehearsal letter C should change to B).
page view with selectable page size
fields for inserting instrument names, Texts, hints, (images would be cool also :-))... this could be really spartan, like a notepad... nothing has to look shiny, but it would be cool to use the notation as a dirty sketchbook area...
settings for graphical representation (borders, sizes, spaces...)
When editing needing off-grid notes for midi, on grid for score (this may be the same as “played note interpretation”)
"MIDI does not contain the data such as note length (quaver, crotchet, etc) and placement in the bar in terms of musical notation. So when imported into a notation editor such as Musescore, the editor has to interpret this and place notes on the stave, and some of them do this incorrectly. However, this notation information will have already been established in the notation view of Reaper by means of 'visual quantisation'. So at this point, is it possible to take the note information not from MIDI, but from the notation editor "visual quantisation", and export this in XML format?”
more concise: MusicXML export is done from the alread-tidied notation view, NOT the raw MIDI. This may be self-evident.
It's the pitch cursor, UI element previously known as 'active position'. It's the pitch where a note will be inserted via the 'insert note' MIDI editor action
Dynamics are above the staff presently because we also support lyrics, and it's simplest to have a fixed dynamics lane above and a fixed lyric lane below.
We can add more options for placement later after things stabilize a bit.
... even a tool "just for composition" must follow rules, a wrong graphical presentation is useless for guys who read music. I can look on a orchestra score and tell you within seconds whats going on, a wrong written score is just wrong.
So it's ESSENTIAL where signs are placed, wich direction stems go and so on...
just pointing to things that are not right at the moment...!
Agreed on this and it's great that preferences will be added. However, it is important that the default out-of-the-box settings are as "correct" as possible. If not entirely.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamish
Hey yeah! and then, why don't we hide those squiggly lines and hashtag thingys and just show some piano keys!?!
Sorry, couldn't resist
Unfortunately for you, there are quite a few of us that would LOVE to see the option not to show note symbols but otherwise keep the stave.
And it does seem like we are soooo close to being able to do this.
Regarding your (hopefully sarcastic) reference to showing piano keys, THAT is the only part of this that would not make sense. I don`t play a piano that starts on the floor and extends up towards the ceiling
Should have added that I am very happy to see any option that allows notes to be stretched or shrunk as per piano roll editing but still on a stave, which we have here and now! Thanks Schwa.
I don`t play a piano that starts on the floor and extends up towards the ceiling
Maybe this is what you're looking for?
Seriously, if we could have piano roll and notation editors open at once, with feedback on edits updated at least 3x per second then I don't really see the need.
Dynamics are above the staff presently because we also support lyrics, and it's simplest to have a fixed dynamics lane above and a fixed lyric lane below.
We can add more options for placement later after things stabilize a bit.
Unfortunately instrumental composers are trained to put them below and that's where our session players will be trained to look for them. If they're above the stave once this gets turned into a page full of notes they will stand a good chance of being misinterpreted by those players as belonging to the line above them.
I totally get the practical rationale at the moment, and there's certainly no immediate hurry - just like to make sure they're in customary locations by the time we're dealing with printout of parts.
Schwa, it would be best to follow established notation rules BY DEFAULT. Lyrics can go in another lane below dynamics lane, which should be below the stave...
The new insert notes of a specific pitch actions are great! Thank you
Now I have some more action requests - sorry
Actions: Move cursor to previous note Move cursor to next note
-I worked out this is actually possible using a few of the existing actions combined. It's a little glitchy with tied notes and phrases though.
Set duration of selected note to 1, 1/2, 1/4 etc.
Set length of next to be inserted or selected notes to dotted
Set length of next to be inserted or selected notes to triplet
-It would be good if these could toggle with the straight version. So dotted/straight, triplet/straight.
- Is there a way we can make actions toggle ourselves?
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Last edited by reddiesel41264; 02-16-2016 at 08:48 AM.
Lyrics can go in another lane below dynamics lane, which should be below the stave...
Just for completeness, that would be non-standard. When notating lyrics, it's typical to move the dynamics above the staff.
After things stabilize a bit, we can add an option to display dynamics above or below the staff, or automatically choose a lane based on the existence of lyrics.
After things stabilize a bit, we can add an option to display dynamics above or below the staff, or automatically choose a lane based on the existence of lyrics.
I feel like the automatic solution is a good one, because instrumental music with dynamics above the staff is nonexistent or at least extremely rare (I've certainly never come across sheet music like that).
I'm sure the option to deviate from that wouldn't hurt because there's always someone who needs it for some reason, but that will be a pretty rare case.
Can we please have one option
(within prefs-Midi-Editor or elsewhere)
for
Max Zoom Out Level -for first time open MIDI Items
for all MIDI Editors?
(for different monitors-therefore option and max zoom out level would be, I think enough)
I can´t believe, that such an high Zoom Out Level would really make sense.
-Only to view/show all events at first time opening.
And this really little piano MIDI item example(1 track,1ch)
is only 5 min long.. viewing at 1920*1080
Zoom Out at first time opening item- page view:
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Yep, I also think that automatic is the way to go, perhaps no real need to have it as an option?
After a little more testing i think another concept of inserting musical signs is the only way to go. Here's why:
- try to draw a note below or above the staff, it's impossible to insert a note above b'' or below B. Current workaround is to draw a note and drag it down or up to the note you want. And then the dynamics and lyrics line wich is fixed collides with the notes, really a mess.
Lyrics make sense below the staff if it's between treble and bass clef. but lyrics look great above the staff for treble clef only. Options are the best.
Yep, I also think that automatic is the way to go, perhaps no real need to have it as an option?
Yeah I certainly can't imagine ever using that option. It does seem a bit like the general tendency for notation programs is to have an option for almost every layout decision, though. But that doesn't mean REAPER should necessarily follow that model.
Yeah I certainly can't imagine ever using that option. It does seem a bit like the general tendency for notation programs is to have an option for almost every layout decision, though. But that doesn't mean REAPER should necessarily follow that model.
For you. What's wrong with options for other people? "Options" now gets rid of lots of fiddly feature requests later on. Lots of people who won't read any of this and will look for random things later.
For you. What's wrong with options for other people? "Options" now gets rid of lots of fiddly feature requests later on. Lots of people who won't read any of this and will look for random things later.
Only a couple posts above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by paaltio
I'm sure the option to deviate from that wouldn't hurt because there's always someone who needs it for some reason
I believe the issue there is, with no key signature enabled, there are 12 separate pitch hit areas within 3.5 staff lines. Even with a key signature enabled, there are 8 separate pitch hit areas within 3.5 staff lines. So there will be some overlap with note selection rectangles. Put another way, C and Db have the same selection rectangle, and half of it overlaps with the rectangle for D and Eb.
Maybe the hit areas could be still improved.
The most user friendly hit area would be vertically in the middle of color bar.
Here is an example of the problem in Reaper, this time with C Major scale enabled.
In PT the hit areas are intuitively in the middle of notes
FR Guidance on new notes
Linear Mode
