v6.12+dev0621 - June 21 2020

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

the user can override the main pref on a per track basis.

Per take perhaps.

[mccrabney]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Then use the main pref toggle as I suggested. Easy enough. And for other tracks like cymbals/tam-tam etc. where you would never want them to retrigger, the user can override the main pref on a per track basis. Everybody's happy.

hmmmm... see, my thinking is that i'd rather not have to consider the toggle status each time i split something (thousands and thousands of times) ... i'd rather just have a usecase appropriate mouse modifier or action.

the toggle for "move envelope points with items" has left a bad taste in my mouth for using toggle actions instead of mouse or key modifiers to do extremely common tasks.

[ovnis]

When editing pretty much all sustained instruments, you would want it to retrigger.

Not necessarily. For exemple in this case (with regions), after moving the region, we don't want retrigger.

Originally Posted by mccrabney

hmmmm... see, my thinking is that i'd rather not have to consider the toggle status each time i split something (thousands and thousands of times) ... i'd rather just have a usecase appropriate mouse modifier or action.

the toggle for "move envelope points with items" has left a bad taste in my mouth for using toggle actions instead of mouse or key modifiers to do extremely common tasks.

Same thing for me.

[_Stevie_]

My issue with that "don't retrigger" feature is that the visual state does by no means represent what we hear. As a result this is hell of confusing.
How would a new user understand that a split item is not being played back?

[ovnis]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

My issue with that "don't retrigger" feature is that the visual state does by no means represent what we hear. As a result this is hell of confusing.
How would a new user understand that a split item is not being played back?

And with this ?

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

hmmmm... see, my thinking is that i'd rather not have to consider the toggle status each time i split something (thousands and thousands of times) ... i'd rather just have a usecase appropriate mouse modifier or action

In your previous post you JUST said you foresee wanting both retrigger/detrigger behaviors on the same track. If that's the case, you would absolutely have to consider the toggle status every time.

If you DON'T want to consider the toggle status every time, then you would want to use just ONE setting.

So which one is it??

And just to be clear, my proposed solution would cover both scenarios.

[_Stevie_]

Originally Posted by ovnis

Not necessarily. For exemple in this case (with regions), after moving the region, we don't want retrigger.



Same thing for me.

You really want to keep that remnant note in the second item after you moved the region? How would you ever know which notes are relevant and which are not only by looking at it? Imagine you have to send that MIDI arrangement to an orchestrator, how would he deal with that?

[ovnis]

Or maybe better ?

A transparant/ghost note for the detrigger note ?

[deeb]

Originally Posted by ovnis

And with this ?

Or an * on the note text , comment (simpler maybe)

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by vitalker

Per take perhaps.

If it's per take, you are going to have to set it per take - every single time. If you have a project with literally thousands of midi items, this would be a nightmare. I'm all for an action to override default/track behavior, but at least give us a track/default behavior so we don't have to set it for every single item. That would be a nightmare.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by ovnis

Or maybe better ?

A transparant/ghost note for the detrigger note ?

Since technically the note is muted, I agree it should be shown as muted/actually muted. Otherwise a user will be looking at it wondering WTF it's not playing.

Also, keep in mind, when exporting the midi part/file, you would also not want to export notes that are not retriggering, so they should most definitely be muted.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

If it's per take, you are going to have to set it per take - every single time.

Check how is implemented timebase. There is a project default, then there is a track default and item timebase. Is it clear now?

[Meo-Ada Mespotine]

I love to see that the action-list gets some love as well.

Is there a chance for the addition of shortcuts and actioncommand-ids for the filter as well or is it currently about the design itself?

I appreciate that the selected actions are used for new custom-actions right away. If I could add multiple pre-selected actions to PromptForAction, this would allow me to write some helper-actions, that pre-select actions, so I just need to create a new custom-action using my pre-selection.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by vitalker

Check how is implemented timebase. There is a project default, then there is a track default and item timebase. Is it clear now?

Dude, this is EXACTLY what I proposed. Main pref and per track override. Does this ring a bell?

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...1&postcount=36

[ovnis]

You really want to keep that remnant note in the second item after you moved the region?

I work a lot with regions. Items of the region stay inside one region and are not extented to an another region. It's more clean and logical. But sometimes, I want a sustained note from a region to an anoter. With this new system (detrigger note), I can keep the rule of one item only inside a region and have the possibility to have one note inside two regions or more.

How would you ever know which notes are relevant and which are not only by looking at it? Imagine you have to send that MIDI arrangement to an orchestrator, how would he deal with that?

With transparant note for the detrigger note?

[ovnis]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Since technically the note is muted, I agree it should be shown as muted/actually muted.

Otherwise a user will be looking at it wondering WTF it's not playing.

On my reaper theme, muted notes are grey. It's not the same thing than transparant notes. So we can make the difference between muted notes (grey) and not detrigger notes (transparant).

On the arragement window, muted not are not displayed on the MIDI items.

Il prefer the transparant note rather the lock icon. Visual more simple/clean and inside the arrangement window, when we see an MIDI item we can see all the detriggered notes (transparant) and triggered notes (not transparant).

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by ovnis

With transparant note for the detrigger note?

Can we just agree here that "de-triggered" notes are muted? It's very important we adhere to the midi spec here. A midi note is either unmuted or muted. If it is unmuted it plays, if it is muted it doesn't. We can't just start making shit up, especially since midi has to be exported from Reaper too. So, de-triggered = muted.

This would also make it really easy to "re-trigger" if for some reason you made a mistake or wanted to change later. We don't need a whole new system here. Let's just follow the spec.

[_Stevie_]

Then I wonder, if all this couldn't be achieved in an easier way with a custom tailored split script, like:

- Split item and notes, delete adjacent notes with the same pitch in the right item

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Dude, this is EXACTLY what I proposed. Main pref and per track override. Does this ring a bell?

So why you said no to per take basis? It is a part of your FR then.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

Then I wonder, if all this couldn't be achieved in an easier way with a custom tailored split script, like:

- Split item and notes, delete adjacent notes with the same pitch in the right item

Makes sense.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by vitalker

So why you said no to per take basis? It is a part of your FR then.

Per TRACK, not per Take was my FR.

[joshxtra]

Gotta chime in real quick:

The nudge tool should work together with area selection.
There could be a checkbox in the nudge window to "nudge area selection"
If it's checked, a present AS will be nudged by the tool/the corresponding actions.

Originally Posted by vitalker

Check how is implemented timebase. There is a project default, then there is a track default and item timebase. Is it clear now?

I'm all for the timebase-like solution, which you and Klangfarben both seem to propose.
Actually, I think the right place would be the "Advanced"-Tab of the Project Settings.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Per TRACK, not per Take was my FR.

I said check how it is implemented with timebase. You agreed and now you ask me again.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by vitalker

I said check how it is implemented with timebase. You agreed and now you ask me again.

Goodness. You said take when I'm assuming you meant track. Those are two VERY different things.

Let's just agree that we agree lol. We both think there should be a main setting in prefs/project settings and then a per track override like with timebase.

At this point, I'm kind of with Stevie. Just make a custom script and call it a day.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Goodness. You said take when I'm assuming you meant track. Those are two VERY different things.

Let's just agree that we agree lol. We both think there should be a main setting in prefs/project settings and then a per track override like with timebase.

At this point, I'm kind of with Stevie. Just make a custom action and call it a day.

Ok, I just mean the same way as it is implemented with timebase. I guess a native action for this kind of splitting is a better way than some script.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by vitalker

Ok, I just mean the same way as it is implemented with timebase. I guess a native action for this kind of splitting is a better way than some script.

Well keep in mind, we already have to use custom scripts to split while respecting locked items. So a custom script that splits item/notes and deletes adjacent notes with the same pitch in the newly created rightmost items wouldn't really be any different in that regard.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Well keep in mind, we already have to use custom scripts to split while respecting locked items. So a custom script that splits item/notes and deletes adjacent notes with the same pitch in the newly created rightmost items wouldn't really be any different in that regard.

But everyone would prefer a native solution. Do you agree? Same with locked items.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by vitalker

But everyone would prefer a native solution. Do you agree? Same with locked items.

Yeah, but we are talking about pretty fundamental changes for what amounts to a corner case for most users. So we have kind of a dilemma.

1) The current feature is very valuable for some users. They obviously don't want it to go away. BUT it also simply can't work that way for other users which means to keep the feature we need a choice - and an implementation such as we discussed.

2) We can't break midi. We can't have "de-triggered" notes or transparent notes or anything like that. Notes either play or they don't. If the notes don't play, they have to be either muted or deleted. Doing anything else breaks midi and causes Reaper to not adhere to the midi spec. That just can't happen.

3) Split is already problematic since it doesn't respect locked items, which Area Selection has brought to the forefront. So, do we make it consistent across the board? Or do we do it piece-meal which is confusing? Do we have AS respect locked items but nothing else in the program? Do we allow split to not retrigger AND respect locked items? The amount of combinations there gets pretty complicated.

Deeb brought up a very good point in one of the earlier threads. Which is can the devs do all of this AND continue working on AS which is the main goal of this cycle? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making this consistent across the board and I've made the argument several times, especially regarding locked items.

So that becomes the question. If the devs can't implement retrigger on/off with a solution similar to timebase, then it can't work for everyone, only some people. That's just not a feasible solution. And if that can't be done, it is actually a pretty easy script for someone to write which would solve the issue for everyone who does want the feature. Without breaking anything for everyone else. IMHO that might end up being the best solution at this point.

[_Stevie_]

I'm completely with Klangfarben here.

The issue is: this corner case has so many different faces that it can't be covered natively. This is something the user has to take care of with different scripts for different use cases.

Like this: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=225751

[heda]

I'm confused with the MIDI split changes. Please make it all optional.

[Reno.thestraws]

+1

And I also prefer to keep locked item behavior for split. I want to keep splitting locked item, it's super useful

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws

And I also prefer to keep locked item behavior for split. I want to keep splitting locked item, it's super useful

And very much not for others...

[EvilDragon]

Cubase only seems to have a global option for this.

https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro_ar...litting_t.html

Did anyone ever object against this in Cubase?

[Reno.thestraws]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

And very much not for others...

Depends on what you do with reaper

Reaper users are

Musicians
Producers
Mixers
Mastering engineers
Podcaster
Post prod guys
Sound designers
Bands
Video games guys
ADT
PROG Metal heads
EDM
Rappers
Journalists


So much different workflow and goals...

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws

Reaper users are

Musicians
Producers
Mixers
Mastering engineers
Podcaster
Post prod guys
Sound designers
Bands
Video games guys
ADT
PROG Metal heads
EDM
Rappers
Journalists

Gosh and here I thought it was just Prog Metal Heads!!

[_Stevie_]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Cubase only seems to have a global option for this.

https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro_ar...litting_t.html

Did anyone ever object against this in Cubase?

Yes, I know exactly how it works in Cubase. Been using that feature for years.
It behaves like the text explains:

If you split a MIDI part so that the split position intersects one or several MIDI notes and Split MIDI Events is activated in the Preferences dialog (Editing-MIDI page), the intersected notes are split and new notes are created at the beginning of the second part. If it is deactivated, the notes remain in the first part, but stick out after the end of the part.

You could call it "non-destructive item split".

[ovnis]

We can't have "de-triggered" notes or transparent notes or anything like that.

Why we can't ?

Notes either play or they don't. If the notes don't play, they have to be either muted or deleted.

Yes and ?

Doing anything else breaks midi and causes Reaper to not adhere to the midi spec. That just can't happen.

No. We can use a transparant note when the start of the MIDI note is inside a previous MIDI item. It will not break the MIDI message. The MIDI export will be the same.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by ovnis

Why we can't ?

There are only two states for a midi note. Either muted or not muted - a velocity of 0 or a velocity > 0. A midi note can't "be" anything else.

So if a note does not play but is shown, then by definition it has to be muted as the velocity would be 0. You can't just say hey transparent = velocity 0 and muted = velocity 0 but they are two totally different things. They aren't. A midi note has a velocity of 0 in which case it does not play and is "muted" or it has a velocity > 0 and plays. There's nothing else in the spec but that.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

Yes, I know exactly how it works in Cubase. Been using that feature for years.

Yeah. My point was - why complicate things with global preference then per track or per take overrides? Just have one option globally, action to toggle it, have a visual cue that it's enabled on the item, Bob's your uncle.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

There are only two states for a midi note. Either muted or not muted - a velocity of 0 or a velocity > 0. A midi note can't "be" anything else.

Until MIDI 2.0 is everywhere at least.