Old 06-28-2022, 11:09 AM   #241
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I am curious about this. What is the current workflow/options for this without fixed lanes?
My current workflow is to Group multiple items, each item containing several layers of takes. Then, Split and edit.

I've found this workflow works well maybe 80% of the time, but if I need to get more granular with some items within the group, like isolating individual tom hits, it gets complicated fast.

Other DAWs effectively solve this with track-level editing groups. If track-level edit grouping was introduced alongside the Fixed Lanes feature, it would greatly improve both the Item workflow and the Lanes workflow IMO.

Another thing that would be great with Lanes + Track Edit Groups is the ability to save versions of multiple tracks together, e.g. Drums Unedited (Lane 1), Drums Comped (Lane 2), Drums Comped + Timed (Lane 3).
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Old 07-01-2022, 12:39 PM   #242
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Just want to reboot some of the useful conversation that was happening here.
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Old 07-01-2022, 01:04 PM   #243
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Time Selection Auto Punch (in lanes).

In classic Reaper comping, to punch in a word/phrase you'd Select Time, and hit Record. The track would play, and when hitting the Time Selection it would temporarily mute and allow you to punch in your part. When you hit stop, splits were created, a new take was added, and that take was made active.

This was all great, other than the Splits.

This can be made so much better in Lanes with a few simple behaviours.

1. Make a Time Selection with a record-armed Fixed Lanes track
2. From the moment you hit record to the moment you hit stop, that entire take is recorded to a new lane. (excellent! No "hidden" takes behind splits)
3. During the recording pass, same behaviour - the active (play marker'd) take should be audible, and when it hits the Time Selection it mutes to give you space to punch in.
4. When you hit Stop, New Play Markers are created at the Time Selection, deleting any existing markers within those bounds.
5. Make that slice active!

Gives us the fast classic punch-in behaviour with all the beautiful benefits of lanes, and no splits.
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Old 07-01-2022, 01:17 PM   #244
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Other DAWs effectively solve this with track-level editing groups. If track-level edit grouping was introduced alongside the Fixed Lanes feature, it would greatly improve both the Item workflow and the Lanes workflow IMO.
I've been hoping for and asking for track-level editing groups for years. That along with anything that can reasonably approach the pro tools playlist editing workflow is all Reaper is missing for me. Been waiting and hoping since 2009!
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Old 07-01-2022, 01:21 PM   #245
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I've been hoping for and asking for track-level editing groups for years. That along with anything that can reasonably approach the pro tools playlist editing workflow is all Reaper is missing for me. Been waiting and hoping since 2009!
+1, this seems like such a significant improvement to the current feature set. Is there some conceptual design principle of "editing is an item-domain activity" which has prevented its implementation?
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Old 07-01-2022, 01:35 PM   #246
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+1, this seems like such a significant improvement to the current feature set. Is there some conceptual design principle of "editing is an item-domain activity" which has prevented its implementation?
This is a hotly debated topic, and just mentioning it usually means you have to jump through hoops to provide real world use cases where editing with item based groups falls apart, which has happened for years. Mentioning something is great or better in pro tools makes a lot of people mad. There must be some reason, the devs never address it, and this isn't a new request. See this popular and high priority FR from 2009:

https://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=843
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Old 07-01-2022, 01:43 PM   #247
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This is a hotly debated topic, and just mentioning it usually means you have to jump through hoops to provide real world use cases where editing with item based groups falls apart, which has happened for years. Mentioning something is great or better in pro tools makes a lot of people mad. There must be some reason, the devs never address it, and this isn't a new request. See this popular and high priority FR from 2009:

https://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=843
I understand why comparisons to other DAWs are not persuasive, at least not as a primary argument (and I certainly understand why those comparisons are annoying, even if REAPER doesn't exist in a vacuum).

But on the merits, this particular feature request would pack a lot of punch for what is probably not a ton of work, at least compared to something complicated like track lanes.
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Old 07-01-2022, 01:49 PM   #248
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I've never understood why pointing to other DAWs is frowned upon honestly. In what other situation would pointing to real-world examples with decades of case-studies be seen as a negative. Absolutely bizarre to me.
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Old 07-01-2022, 01:55 PM   #249
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"Use Logic's swipe-comping for 5 minutes. See how nice that feels?" is already more persuasive than paragraphs of text arguing pros/cons.

Providing some GIFs to demonstrate, even better.

Packaging this data up in the context of what already exists in Reaper - chef's kiss. This is what I think most users are doing when appealing to other DAWs.
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Old 07-01-2022, 01:59 PM   #250
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I've never understood why pointing to other DAWs is frowned upon honestly. In what other situation would pointing to real-world examples with decades of case-studies be seen as a negative. Absolutely bizarre to me.
It's bizarre, but I do get it... Reaper in a lot of ways is the anti PT, which is part of what I love about it. I also love editing in PT because it's intuitive and easy. I've tried the Reaper way, read the manual, watched the vids, it isn't for me. I want to do it the easy way. Most aspects of Reaper are superior, though track based edit groups and playlists (or something like them) are missing for my preferred workflow.

with take lane discussions, it is often implied that these will be used to record identical parts. If I do 5 takes of an improvised solo, they will all be different, so I hope the notion that all takes may be different is accommodated.
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Old 07-01-2022, 02:03 PM   #251
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I've never understood why pointing to other DAWs is frowned upon honestly. In what other situation would pointing to real-world examples with decades of case-studies be seen as a negative. Absolutely bizarre to me.
I tend to think that a feature request should be phrased as a "what needs should this satisfy?" strategic proposition and not as "do it like they did it" tactical directives. In many cases, there are underlying architectural or technical or conceptual or just "feel" reasons why Avid's solution is totally insufficient for REAPER.

At least, that appears to be the forum-facing attitude of management, based on what I've read here. Maybe if more users tried to describe what they are trying to do, and can't, rather than proposing ready-made solutions they've known from other software, solutions for those problems could be found. But that's just hand-waving, obviously I don't know how REAPER's sausage factory really works.
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Old 07-01-2022, 02:13 PM   #252
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I tend to think that a feature request should be phrased as a "what needs should this satisfy?" strategic proposition and not as "do it like they did it" tactical directives. In many cases, there are underlying architectural or technical or conceptual or just "feel" reasons why Avid's solution is totally insufficient for REAPER.
I'll post this again... https://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=843

I think every single possible angle has been approached regarding track based edit groups and playlists, from "PT does it better", to "here's how and why it will help", and it just doesn't matter. A sizable chunk of the Reaper community has been asking for this in various ways for years, for a yet-unexplained reason from anyone with authority, it hasn't happened.
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Old 07-01-2022, 02:40 PM   #253
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Thanks, I got it the first time. I was responding to Ferropop's (probably rhetorical) question and not to the history of this feature request, which I also support. That post is not bad, although it does have "PT-style" right at the top and, as such, will probably be / was probably ignored. Out of spite, professional diva/auteur stuff, or just because no one feels like doing it with more fun projects on the docket, or because Kenny doesn't think it's important, or who knows?

Quote:
I think every single possible angle has been approached regarding track based edit groups and playlists, from "PT does it better", to "here's how and why it will help", and it just doesn't matter. A sizable chunk of the Reaper community has been asking for this in various ways for years, for a yet-unexplained reason from anyone with authority, it hasn't happened.
It's clearly not stopping people from using the software, although it may slow people down or force them to the competition for certain stuff. If it were anyone's priority, I guess it would be done already. There are some scripts that sorta-kinda help with this, but I have concerns about relying on 3rd party, potentially unmaintained/breakable external code for managing core editing functionality. Better than nothing, I suppose.
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Old 07-01-2022, 02:51 PM   #254
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Thanks, I got it the first time.
Yeah sorry I get too excited when this topic comes up.

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It's clearly not stopping people from using the software, although it may slow people down or force them to the competition for certain stuff. If it were anyone's priority, I guess it would be done already. There are some scripts that sorta-kinda help with this, but I have concerns about relying on 3rd party, potentially unmaintained/breakable external code for managing core editing functionality.
Yeah the one that looks promising is this one:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=263660
But you need to have a prerelease just for all of it to work, and I'm just hoping that whatever it relies on in the prerelease gets integrated.

You're right, it isn't stopping me, but even on today's edit, I wish I had track based edit groups. If there was a proper way to ask, I will ask in that way. And if there isn't, or there is a reason why we can't have track based edit groups, for the love of god just tell us why. Soooo many engineers I've shown reaper to were so pumped UNTIL I told them about this issue.
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Old 07-01-2022, 03:20 PM   #255
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I've never understood why pointing to other DAWs is frowned upon honestly. In what other situation would pointing to real-world examples with decades of case-studies be seen as a negative. Absolutely bizarre to me.
Maybe it’s because there’s been so many users over the years coming from other DAWs demanding that REAPER must do things the way they’re used to and not in its own unique, open ended and flexible way. This is a general observation on my part and not a comment on your suggestions.

Maybe there’s no point if it just emulates work flows from all the other run-of-the-mill DAWs. Cockos seems to have no interest in grabbing market shares from the rest of the pack. It sits in its own lane and does its own funky thing in almost every regard from actual design to business model.
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Old 07-01-2022, 04:18 PM   #256
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Maybe it’s because there’s been so many users over the years coming from other DAWs demanding that REAPER must do things the way they’re used to and not in its own unique, open ended and flexible way. This is a general observation on my part and not a comment on your suggestions.

Maybe there’s no point if it just emulates work flows from all the other run-of-the-mill DAWs.
I fell in love with Reaper because it's flexible. I wish that flexibility allowed me to edit groups based on tracks and not on items. What's flexible about not allowing track based edit groups? That's the whole thing, is not allowing these features to me makes it less flexible. You don't have to remove the take lanes or anything. I'm not asking for less options, I'm asking for more.
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Old 07-01-2022, 04:28 PM   #257
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Cockos seems to have no interest in grabbing market shares from the rest of the pack. It sits in its own lane and does its own funky thing in almost every regard from actual design to business model.
Probably the reason we're all here honestly.

This said, there's severe downsides to having such an open "build your own workflow" situation. Another DAW can just "make a new track type", build in all the necessary features, safeties against disaster, provide the various necessary workflows, and bullet-proof it. Done. This isn't an option in Reaper. Backwards compatibility and "typeless tracks" are (celebrated) pillars of the DAW - but also the pink elephant constantly rearing its trunk at every single workflow/design decision.

Imagine the 65,535 corner cases that have to be considered with track-based grouping for example. Or Playlists and versioning. Or "top track" implementations. What happens when mixing item-based takes and fixed-track play markers, and all the associated actions? How does this all play with ARA? Which trillion scripts (that people fully rely on to pay their bills) will break because of a single decision? etc...

It's mind-numbing. My point though is that I think most people are aware of this, and are never implying that "the devs should simply copy xyz" because that's an insane oversimplification.

BUT there's incredible value in pointing at a circular wheel and saying "hey look! I know we haven't tried the hexagon...and we have lots of hexagons sitting around so I get it... but that circle wheel really has the town down the road moving bricks!"
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Old 07-01-2022, 04:34 PM   #258
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Also bringing back my "Track Painting" FR from earlier... if we can't have a "preassigned workflow, typed-tracks, bulletproof'd" comping situation - please devs give us the tools to make our own.
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Old 07-01-2022, 11:53 PM   #259
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BUT there's incredible value in pointing at a circular wheel and saying "hey look! I know we haven't tried the hexagon...and we have lots of hexagons sitting around so I get it... but that circle wheel really has the town down the road moving bricks!"
Good one.

This is probably the wrong thread to be discussing these things so I’ll shut up now.
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Old 07-02-2022, 06:27 AM   #260
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^^ yeah . Please stick with the relevant stuff on topic.
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Old 07-14-2022, 12:10 PM   #261
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Devs... THANK YOU for considering the track item grouping feature! This is starting to look very cool! Excited to try these out soon in the dev build.

v6.63+dev0705 - July 5 2022
+ Grouping: create and edit track media/razor edit groups in grouping matrix or track group settings dialog
+ Grouping: don't open "grouping for selected tracks" dialog if no tracks are selected
+ Grouping: enable "selecting one item selects group" by default for new projects
+ Grouping: media item edits on group-leader tracks will affect media items on all group-follower tracks, as if the media items were grouped
+ Grouping: razor edits on group-leader tracks will be mirrored on all group-follower tracks
+ Grouping: right-click in grouping matrix opens group settings dialog for already-selected tracks, rather than auto-selecting tracks
+ Grouping: support track media/razor edit groups, including leader/follower groups
+ Grouping: when setting/unsetting free item positioning, also modify grouped tracks

v6.63+dev0707 - July 7 2022
+ Media item fixed lanes: actions to move media items up/down by lane respect item and track grouping
+ Media item fixed lanes: changing lane solo affects other selected or item-edit-grouped tracks

v6.63+dev0708 - July 8 2022
+ Grouping: fix grouped items deselecting on second click [p=2576299]
+ Track grouping: "selecting one item selects group" selects only enclosed media items on follower tracks
+ Track grouping: add ReaScript/API support for ITEM_EDIT_LEAD and ITEM_EDIT_FOLLOW
+ Track grouping: add actions to enable/disable individual track groups

v6.63+dev0710 - July 10 2022
+ Grouping: increase size of media item group border
+ Grouping: mouse modifier to toggle item selection respects grouping when selecting or deselecting [t=259823]
+ Track grouping: items behave as grouped if at least half of the item on the follower track overlaps the item on the leader track
# Grouping: refresh item grouping indicators after moving media items [p=2576301]
# Track grouping: media/razor edit grouping respects action to enable/disable all track grouping
# Track grouping: update grouping dialog when enabling/disabling groups
# Track grouping: use the same follower overlap criteria for selecting, editing, and actions

v6.64+dev0714 - July 14 2022
* Includes feature branch: track media/razor edit grouping
+ Grouping: enable "selecting item selects group" for all projects
+ Grouping: mouse-copy affects grouped items regardless of item selection (item grouping or track media edit grouping)
+ Track grouping: add preference (in Media Item Defaults) for media/razor edit grouping overlap requirement
+ Track grouping: mouse edits affect grouped items regardless of selection; actions affect selected items only (same behavior as item grouping)
# Track grouping: display grouping indicators in TCP rather than arrange view
# Track grouping: display items as grouped even when selected
# Track grouping: group items if at least half of either the leader or follower item overlaps the other
# Track grouping: improve handling of actions when no items are selected [p=2576958]
# Track grouping: simplify implementation to be more like item grouping
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Old 07-26-2022, 07:06 PM   #262
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Any thoughts or plans on more capabilities to reorganize existing fixed lanes in a track? Specifically being able to:
a) re-order them
b) give them more descriptive labels (names) than just a sequential number

Working with the fixed lanes so far, they are great but it becomes difficult to put together, compare, and organize different comp lanes when you're at the mercy of when the lane was created.
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Old 07-27-2022, 11:47 AM   #263
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^^^ would love both : reordering and naming and I just thought (dreaming high): ability to have independent fx chains per layer?
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Old 08-27-2022, 03:50 PM   #264
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Finally tried out the latest Track Lanes functionality. This, along with the latest Track Group functionality is absolutely rocking my freaking world!! Thank you, devs!!!
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Old 08-29-2022, 06:52 PM   #265
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One behaviour that I expected, but doesn't currently happen, is that ideally with the newish "highlight edit cursor" enabled, the user should be able to discretely select which of the lanes you're going to paste a item into. That'd be pretty slick and seems the most logical thing to happen.

Is this something that would be possible? Currently when you paste an item into an empty Fixed Media Item Lane that has an item within the same time, the paste generally seems to overlap it into the existing item's lane, even when there's an empty one available. So the items often overlap, which kind of defeats the point IMO!

If selecting a discrete lane isn't possible, perhaps the paste should automatically go to an empty lane if it's been created?

PS posted this at the end of a couple of release discussions but seems to have got lost so hope the re-post is ok.

Many thanks

Ben
Anyone else wanting to paste directly into a specific lane and unable to do so? Am I missing something?

Thanks

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Old 08-30-2022, 10:21 AM   #266
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Anyone else wanting to paste directly into a specific lane and unable to do so? Am I missing something?

Thanks

Ben
Yeah, I'm want too. It's strange weakness... We have lanes for comping and unable paste to a specific lane. Sometimes copy/paste is faster than dragging, much faster!
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Old 09-01-2022, 05:49 PM   #267
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Where are track lanes at these days? I check the pre release features sometimes and see very little about it. Hoping that it makes it to an official release sooner than later
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Old 09-02-2022, 04:06 AM   #268
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Anyone else wanting to paste directly into a specific lane and unable to do so? Am I missing something?

Thanks

Ben
+1 000 000 000
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Old 09-03-2022, 02:30 PM   #269
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Where are track lanes at these days? I check the pre release features sometimes and see very little about it. Hoping that it makes it to an official release sooner than later
+1!

fixed lanes and media/razor edit grouping are still there in the dev builds, so fingers crossed. I'm not clear what's happened to the swipe comping ability that was being tested as part of the fixed lanes feature but a lot of work and user testing has gone into all this, so hopefully it will all come eventually.
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Old 09-04-2022, 06:39 PM   #270
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Finally tried out the latest Track Lanes functionality. This, along with the latest Track Group functionality is absolutely rocking my freaking world!! Thank you, devs!!!
Where can I try this out?

I downloaded a pre-release (v6.67rc2 - September 4 2022) but I don't see anything different.

Thanks.
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Old 09-04-2022, 07:04 PM   #271
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Where can I try this out?

I downloaded a pre-release (v6.67rc2 - September 4 2022) but I don't see anything different.

Thanks.
That is the RC (release candidate) for next release version which doesn't have that feature, you want the +dev file ( e.g., reaper666+dev0902 ), which are all currently in the old folder, https://www.landoleet.org/old/.
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Old 09-04-2022, 07:18 PM   #272
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Solo markers were almost in a usable state, but still didn't feel quite right. Excited to see where a bit of pullback and deep thinking by the devs will inspire them to go with all of that.
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Old 09-05-2022, 02:17 AM   #273
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Solo markers were almost in a usable state, but still didn't feel quite right. Excited to see where a bit of pullback and deep thinking by the devs will inspire them to go with all of that.
Solo markers was nice but didn't let us edit items along with comping.
I would love to have a combination of both, the latest version with regions was nice but i would prefer if we could drag the mouse on them ala solo markers and swipe comp.
Then we could have both functions: swipe comp and edit the items.
The only problem with play regions was that they took a lot of space from lanes.
Looking forward to the upcoming implementation too.
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Old 09-05-2022, 04:33 PM   #274
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That is the RC (release candidate) for next release version which doesn't have that feature, you want the +dev file ( e.g., reaper666+dev0902 ), which are all currently in the old folder, https://www.landoleet.org/old/.
Thank you!
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Old 09-07-2022, 01:17 PM   #275
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Finally installed a pre-release build so I could poke around with the new track lanes feature. So far I've successfully recorded 3 lanes, and can toggle between them by pressing the 1, 2, and 3 buttons that have now appeared. I've added take markers. What's the next step to make a comp of the 3 lanes? It still is only playing whatever lane is highlighted. What's the final step that I'm missing here? Thanks for any help you all can offer.
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Old 09-07-2022, 02:20 PM   #276
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Finally installed a pre-release build so I could poke around with the new track lanes feature. So far I've successfully recorded 3 lanes, and can toggle between them by pressing the 1, 2, and 3 buttons that have now appeared. I've added take markers. What's the next step to make a comp of the 3 lanes? It still is only playing whatever lane is highlighted. What's the final step that I'm missing here? Thanks for any help you all can offer.
r-click lane number thing for options like play all lanes
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Old 09-07-2022, 03:18 PM   #277
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Sorry, I should have been more clear. I can switch between the lanes, but I don't know how one makes a comp track of the best bits of the 3 lanes on its own separate lane.
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Old 09-08-2022, 09:56 AM   #278
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Sorry, I should have been more clear. I can switch between the lanes, but I don't know how one makes a comp track of the best bits of the 3 lanes on its own separate lane.
I think you need earlier pre-version like 0613 (they disabled play markers for now). I forget what the last version is that had play markers, but in 0613 I right click the add-bar of a fixed lane track and get a menu like this,..
Insert lane play marker
Copy output of lane play markers to new lane at top of track
Delete all lane play markers
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Old 09-08-2022, 11:27 AM   #279
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last one with play markers was 0705 pre

I really really want them again but I put all my projects back to not using them in ordre to keep testing new versions. I hope they return.
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Old 09-08-2022, 11:44 AM   #280
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Sorry, I should have been more clear. I can switch between the lanes, but I don't know how one makes a comp track of the best bits of the 3 lanes on its own separate lane.
Right, I'd just split and move desirable items down to a new lane (via action seems easiest), that then only plays.
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