How do I hear onle mid/side in "stereo"?

[Winfield]

How do I hear a tracks mid or side and still maintain 'panning' in item.
I've tried to set up two tracks with identical items and trying to figure out how to make one track only play the mid and the other track only the side-information.

I've been trying using isol8 (https://www.tb-software.com/TBProAudio/ISOL8.html) set to M/S.
The problem: The item has some hard panned passages, but the side-signal is equally loud in both speakers.

The goal is to be able to treat the mid/side on two different tracks - how is this possible?

Perhaps I'm missing some basic grasp on mid/side processing?

Any ideas?

[dug dog]

I had a quick look at that isol8 plug (your link didn't work, btw. 404 error). At a glance, it looks complicated. LOL. If you have it set up correctly, then I don't know what's up. However, if there's a chance that you don't have it set up correctly, it might be worth trying the free, and capable, MSED from Voxengo which is very simple to use.

https://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/

[juan_r]

There's more than one way to do it(TM), but here's what I'd do. I'd have two identical tracks, and insert a mid-side plugin on both. Then I'd mute side on one track and mid on the other.

I don't know isol8, but as dug dog said: the Voxengo excellent mid-side encoder/decoder should be all you need. What exactly are you trying to do?

[Fergler]

Yes, you may be misunderstanding.

Channel 1: Mid is 0.5 * L+R
Channel 2: Side is 0.5 * L-R

In both channels you are taking both stereo channels and summing them. So that's what you're hearing when you solo or mute them in Isol8. There is no stereo information contained in either channel, they are both mono.

You won't hear any stereo until both tracks are playing at once.

You may find this all easier to do on one track though, by simply wrapping all plugins intended to be used in mid/side with MS Encode and MS Decode. Then for each plugin between those, use the routing pins as described above to limit their function to either the mid or side channel. EQs, compressors.. lots of fun to be had.

Note: Go easy on side channel processing. When summed to mono, side channel disappears completely, and can also be highly varied on stereo speakers that are far away from the listener. Putting reverb on just the side channel for example sounds like a great idea and seems to work great in headphones, but flick on the Mono sum button on the master and you'll understand why it's not a great idea.

[Winfield]

Originally Posted by juan_r

What exactly are you trying to do?

Did this: A folder with two identical tracks, and insert a mid-side plugin on both. Then mute side on one track and mid on the other.
Result:Playing back from the folder track, passages of the song with hard panning is now in the center.
Trying to: Keep sources stereo information.

Should this be different with MSED (or any other pluing)?

Originally Posted by dug dog

... However, if there's a chance that you don't have it set up correctly, it might be worth trying the free, and capable, MSED from Voxengo which is very simple to use.

Thanks I fixed the link. I did try the MSED plug but with the same result. If you have some setup-tips to avoid the issue (with panning) I'm all ears - or eyes

Originally Posted by Fergler

Yes, you may be misunderstanding.

Channel 1: Mid is 0.5 * L+R
Channel 2: Side is 0.5 * L-R

In both channels you are taking both stereo channels and summing them. So that's what you're hearing when you solo or mute them in Isol8. There is no stereo information contained in either channel, they are both mono.

You won't hear any stereo until both tracks are playing at once.

Yeah that's what I suspected - but it rubs me the wrong way that the panning goes haywire. I'm most likely still in misunderstanding, but perhaps what I'm really wanting, is to hear the difference but in stereo (or is difference really just side?).

Thanks for all your inputs

[Stella645]

Isn't it just the case that what you are trying to do is a stereo process, not a M/S process. Set plug to stereo mode and se if it works as expected.

M/S mode is presumably specifically to work with Mid/Side recordings.

[ashcat_lt]

Yeah it just doesn’t work that way. I was pretty disappointed when I figured it out myself. Have you noticed yet that all of your hard panned tracks, which you’d expect to be only on the side, are actually in your mid signal also?

What you actually want is something like a mono “mid bus” and a stereo “sides bus” and to actually send individual elements to each. If all you’ve got is like a stereo mix file, you’re not going to get there.

Edit - maybe ReaSurround could help with panning and placing things across those busses. Just stay in the front channels and sub in a 5.1 setup and Dow mid the front three to stereo at the end.

[juan_r]

Originally Posted by Winfield

Did this: A folder with two identical tracks, and insert a mid-side plugin on both. Then mute side on one track and mid on the other.
Result:Playing back from the folder track, passages of the song with hard panning is now in the center.
Trying to: Keep sources stereo information.

Should this be different with MSED (or any other pluing)?

It's how it's expected to work.

You have a stereo track. 2 channels. Reaper plays left on L and right on R.

You encode to m-s. Still 2 channels. Reaper plays mid on L and right on R. (The imaging makes no sense, but it is just an experiment, right?)

You mute mid. Now you only have 1 channel: side. Reaper either plays side on R or plays side on both L and R You don't get the side divided into L-only and R-only, with no middle! Remember this track is now basically mono, so how can Reaper tell L information from R information?

You want to hear in stereo with the mid suppressed, that is, only the side info, but spread in stereo. To do this, you have to re-decode to L and R, that is, insert two instances of the m-s plugin on each track, first encoding then decoding again. Leave the second instances (decoding) alone and tweak the first instances (encoding). Now muting mid or side works as you want.

Hope this helps!

[Winfield]

Originally Posted by Stella645

Isn't it just the case that what you are trying to do is a stereo process, not a M/S process. Set plug to stereo mode and se if it works as expected.

M/S mode is presumably specifically to work with Mid/Side recordings.

I tried both stereo and mono mode (in ISOL8) - both messed with the panning of the recording.

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

Yeah it just doesn’t work that way. I was pretty disappointed when I figured it out myself. Have you noticed yet that all of your hard panned tracks, which you’d expect to be only on the side, are actually in your mid signal also?

What you actually want is something like a mono “mid bus” and a stereo “sides bus” and to actually send individual elements to each. If all you’ve got is like a stereo mix file, you’re not going to get there.

Edit - maybe ReaSurround could help with panning and placing things across those busses. Just stay in the front channels and sub in a 5.1 setup and Dow mid the front three to stereo at the end.

Yeah a mono 'mid bus' and a stereo 'side bus' - that's it. If only I knew how. Thanks for the tip.

Originally Posted by juan_r

...
You want to hear in stereo with the mid suppressed, that is, only the side info, but spread in stereo. To do this, you have to re-decode to L and R, that is, insert two instances of the m-s plugin on each track, first encoding then decoding again. Leave the second instances (decoding) alone and tweak the first instances (encoding). Now muting mid or side works as you want.
Hope this helps!

If this works then I'm all for it - but I'm not understanding your instructions. What's 'tweaking' in regards to the m-s plugin (and is there a specific plugin I should be using)?

Thanks

[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by juan_r

You mute mid. Now you only have 1 channel: side. Reaper either plays side on RYou want to hear in stereo with the mid suppressed, that is, only the side info, but spread in stereo. To do this, you have to re-decode to L and R, that is, insert two instances of the m-s plugin on each track, first encoding then decoding again. Leave the second instances (decoding) alone and tweak the first instances (encoding). Now muting mid or side works as you want!

Well but no. You end up with the “side” track on both channels - literally exactly the same thing on both channels except one side is upside down. All by itself, there’s still not any L/R separation of individual sources, just that weird feeling of your brain being sucked out through your earholes.

[juan_r]

Originally Posted by Winfield

If this works then I'm all for it - but I'm not understanding your instructions. What's 'tweaking' in regards to the m-s plugin (and is there a specific plugin I should be using)?
Thanks

Tweaking as in change level, eq, compress, or whatever you'd like to experiment. You can do this separately for mid and side. Any such 'tweaks' should come before re-decoding to L/R.

side: encoder -> tweaks -> decoder [*listen]
  +                            +
 mid: encoder -> tweaks -> decoder [listen]
  =                            =
mono (mid only)           stereo mix (L/R)

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

Well but no. You end up with the “side” track on both channels - literally exactly the same thing on both channels except one side is upside down. All by itself, there’s still not any L/R separation of individual sources, just that weird feeling of your brain being sucked out through your earholes.

I guess that's what the OP wanted. The way he was doing it, he'd be left with a strictly mono rendition of either mid or side. I mean, without the polarity inverted on the R channel of the rendered side.

@Winfield To be even more clear, if you monitor in mono (collapse) at the point marked '[*listen]', you get nulled out silence, because L = -R at that stage. You don't get silence on the mid track, because that is already 'normal mono' (L = R).

[ashcat_lt]

Is this meant to be a parallel thing or just like for the whole mix? Either way it’s just about making a couple tracks, naming them “mid” and “side”, and then routing the other tracks to them appropriately. What “appropriately” means depends on what you’re actually trying to do.

[DVDdoug]

Yeah a mono 'mid bus' and a stereo 'side bus' - that's it. If only I knew how. Thanks for the tip.

No... That would be 3-channels. With this kind of manipulation/math you can only get two channels* (or one channel).


You can have 2 channels of regular L & R.
Or you can have L-alone or R-alone and then re-pan it anywhere left-to-right.

Or, you can have 2-channels of M & S.
Or, you can have M-alone or S-alone and then re-pan it anywhere left-to-right.


If you try to "mix and match" you can end-up with a mess or you can end-up back where you started, perhaps with some effects applied separately to M or S before "restoring" the stereo.


* This is assuming you're making a stereo file. You can make a surround file with L-R (side) in the rear channels, etc.

[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by DVDdoug

No... That would be 3-channels.

Yes! You throw out all the M/S bullshit that isn’t actually ever going to get what the OP wants and just actually assign tracks to a mid or side bus as desired. No encode, no decode, just pan or don’t. M/S can’t work the way they want.

[Fergler]

Someone did make a plugin that can isolate or solo a given range of degrees in a stereo image for de-mixing. Can't find it now. Was a pretty clean interface.

Here's a similar idea but put into 5.1 or something:
https://www.ntnu.edu/documents/10012...bmission_9.pdf

[Not_Here]

I just was playing around with Waves plug - Center. You might like to give it a spin.
Not exactly a track for each though.