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Old 06-20-2021, 04:56 AM   #1
ajaym
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Default Thoughts about Reaper and DAWless setups

Now I know that sounds like a contradiction, but here's the thing.
Over many years, I've realised that capturing the spark of the creative moment and faffing around on the computer are two mutually opposing things. Even with any amount of project template customising and whatnot, and much experimenting with external control surfaces of various sorts, and touch screen laptops etc, it's clear that when you just want to put some ideas down - at least, in my case - you really don't want to also be your own engineer at the same time.

Now I'm clearly not the only one feeling this way - the renaissance of hardware-only sequencers, drum machines etc. indicates that a lot of folks just want to interact directly with something that will respond like a musical instrument. Even though, ironically, almost all these devices have a computer inside, they're so tightly integrated with the software that for all intents and purposes they are a dedicated device.

I finally decided to pick up an Akai Force. This seems to be far and away the nearest thing to what I dreamed of, in terms of lots of high-quality pads, touch sensitive screen and encoders with scribble strips etc, and the stand-alone capabilities are substantial, particularly with the latest firmware. In terms of capturing sketches of ideas, it's turning out absolutely great. I'm thrilled, despite its limitations.

Additionally - and this is where I'm coming to the point - it can import and export to Ableton and act as a full-duplex control surface.

Now I really have reduced the 'friction' between me and capturing ideas on the fly - but.... my preferred DAW is Reaper. I have Ableton Lite but with no really well-defined way of interchanging projects across DAWs, I can see that a fair bit of importing WAVs etc. will be needed if I want to take sketches across.

That's understandable of course, and given the incredible complexities involved, we'll probably never see a truly functional vendor-neutral project format - but.... what worries me is that the growing move to at least partially DAWless environments favours two protagonists, NI with the software and hardware ecosystem and AKAI/Ableton on the other side.

This leaves DAWs like Reaper, FL Studio, Bitwig and others at a disadvantage, because that ecosystem is crystallising around a clip/scene paradigm that maps well to modern music, and with tight controller integration to the underlying DAW

It feels to me like Reaper needs to look at this and improve its integration capabilities. I get that currently it's a linear DAW and can't support the Ableton paradigm without workarounds like PlayTime - but I do feel it needs to consider integrating these capabilities natively and (gasp) have the ability to import (at least) .ALS files from Ableton.

Otherwise - yes, I get there are lots of applications like classical music recording etc. for which Reaper works well - but the next generation of artists are growing up with the EDM paradigm - which, ironically, can support long clips and takes quite naturally - and so the 'old generation' of DAWs based around the tape recorder linear recording and then splicing and rearranging - will just become slowly irrelevant.

I get this is a somewhat polemic point of view and I appreciate the immediate temptation to answer 'well if you like Ableton use Ableton'. But Ableton is a VERY expensive product (beyond the seriously crippled entry point version) and Reaper is very cost effective and most young people getting into music aren't rich. An Akai APC Mini is a cheap and quite effective control surface - but integrating that with Reaper would be pointless (other than my drum machine project) because the paradigms don't match. So - Justin - this is WinAmp all over again. WinAmp is irrelevant nowadays. I'd hate this to happen to reaper - but.... I can see the winds of change blowing and they are blowing in your face!
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Old 06-20-2021, 07:44 AM   #2
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I remember an interview with a performer from 1983 or so, who stated that 'the electric guitar's time has come and gone'.
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Old 06-20-2021, 10:10 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
. what's the point of asking something completely different to be what you want?
I hope that Music never get's to the point of "beats and loops only"


You can ask and request FR, remember tho, that it's Cockos decision as what Reaper can do!

"DAW's" have evolved a lot since it's early days, I don't see any DAW doing everything, if you want a Looping type program then use "FL", every DAW has it's strengths and weakness.

Use what works for you. Do not see Reaper going away any time soon. Me, I use three programs, with each providing the tools I need, I do not expect Reaper to provide them, nor do I want Reaper to provide them.

Robert
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Old 06-20-2021, 01:15 PM   #4
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I hope that Music never get's to the point of "beats and loops only"


You can ask and request FR, remember tho, that it's Cockos decision as what Reaper can do!

"DAW's" have evolved a lot since it's early days, I don't see any DAW doing everything, if you want a Looping type program then use "FL", every DAW has it's strengths and weakness.

Use what works for you. Do not see Reaper going away any time soon. Me, I use three programs, with each providing the tools I need, I do not expect Reaper to provide them, nor do I want Reaper to provide them.

Robert
Sorry Robert, I deleted that post. Decided my input wasn't adding enough that was worthwhile to the conversation. I may as well say it again, since your quote.

Essentially I think the OP is better off saving for a few months and buying Ableton if the templates and workarounds aren't working well enough for his beats and loops mindset right now.
Ableton doesn't have to be only that. It's a matter of priorities.
A fruitless exercise attempting to push Reaper's developers hard in that direction, better to go with developers with a passion for supporting that.
Honestly I imagine Justin would rather jack it in completely than prioritise that!
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Old 06-20-2021, 05:15 PM   #5
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"...but the next generation of artists are growing up with the EDM paradigm"

That strikes me as way overstated. The rise of computer based music is an interesting phenomenon driven partly by technology (the hardware and software for production, then later the Internet, mp3s etc for distribution) and partly social/cultural movements. No doubt loop based composition along with technologies such as sampling have played a part and found a more or less permanent role in many forms of contemporary music (although arguably the dominant form of "sampling" is now in sample libraries which are ironically usually employed with "traditional" musicianship including keyboard skills). And again I wonder if the "renaissance of hardware-only sequencers, drum machines etc." reflects some guys now in their late 30's acquiring all the hardware that they wished they could have afforded "back in the day"!
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Old 06-21-2021, 05:59 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ajaym View Post
Justin - this is WinAmp all over again. WinAmp is irrelevant nowadays. I'd hate this to happen to reaper - but.... I can see the winds of change blowing and they are blowing in your face!

@Softsynth,

No need to be sorry! FWIW, you did not need to delete your Post!

@ajaym,

WinAMP is dead because of AOL, which Justin sold the right's too.

As martifingers said that the "EDM paradigm" is overstated, I feel he's right.

Yes more people are using the "EDM paradigm" and also there are many who do not like to create music that way.


I've never needed a loop from a sampled library to create music or inspire me. I'm sure that there are many others in the world today that feel the same way.

I also see many users here that state that because Reaper does not have "X" feature it stops there Creativity. No DAW in existence will give me any creativity, though there are many that will allow me to capture the moment!

An experience in life and a Guitar, provides me with what I need to create music.


Robert
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Old 06-21-2021, 02:47 PM   #7
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Interesting responses and thanks. On the subject of sampled loops I totally agree. I hate them. But the scene/clip paradigm seems to me, even if the clips are totally your own work, to map much more naturally not just to EDM but to almost any musical style. Even classical music has a theme, first subject, second subject, exposition etc and so there are patterns and repeats that the linear tape paradigm just doesn't handle cleanly. Just playing with the looper on the Force is a reminder that creativity is a non-linear process. I love Reaper very much but I wish it embraced alternative paradigms rather than just being a sophisticated evolution of my old Revox a77. Yes, it'll capture a live performance wonderfully. But - did you know - groups are a thing of the past. The solo singer songwriter now dominates the charts. And when you are no longer linearly developing ideas, then you need tools that map to your creativity.
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Old 06-21-2021, 05:07 PM   #8
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I can't be the only one that plays rock/hard rock and...actually plays the whole song - can I? MOST every part, I will actually play, not copy/paste.

Ok, on occasion I will copy section(s), but overall I find that something is lost in having exactly the same dynamics with each repetition if it's not something that just gets buried in the mix. Just me, stuck in the old days maybe. When I need to repeat a section...it's not difficult at all, tho it may take maybe 2 minutes to do over the whole song, as opposed to hitting 1 key. I actually like the hands-on of that part, too. There are 100 ways to make a tune...
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Old 06-22-2021, 11:47 AM   #9
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In defense of the original poster, I barely understand what he's on about. Except the line "Over many years, I've realised that capturing the spark of the creative moment and faffing around on the computer are two mutually opposing things." While true, the furtherly polar opposite of music creation is music business. It's exceedingly rare to find good players who are also good at marketing. It's also rare to find good players who can afford the marketing. Hence all the bad music.

I record way more bad players with money than I do good players with money because good players rarely have money. Back in the day every band had a shitty player who owned the PA and truck. Yes there are many exceptions.

But I digress. Now to devolve this thread to it's inevitable dismount, as Gibson pointed out:
"I can't be the only one that plays rock/hard rock and...actually plays the whole song - can I? MOST every part, I will actually play, not copy/paste."

The thing I chase is commonly called Mojo. I personally believe Mojo is in the struggle that musicians go through to create music through a hard won instrument. Years of practice and talent rather than marketing skills and a mojo-less computer emitting loops very loudly upon the depression of a play button. I realize most buttons were created to be depressed, but surely a play button at an EDM dance club is more depressed than most. If mojo is actually a thing then surely my record button is the happiest of them all.

EDM has a place surely but it's what Bactine antiseptic spray would sound like if it had a voice.

Tragically I turned 60 yesterday and it would be appreciated if you would all get off my lawn. Thank you.
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Old 06-22-2021, 12:02 PM   #10
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Tragically I turned 60 yesterday and it would be appreciated if you would all get off my lawn. Thank you.
Caught me by complete surprise, and you appear to owe me a keyboard. LOL!

Happy Birthday!
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Old 06-22-2021, 01:53 PM   #11
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Caught me by complete surprise, and you appear to owe me a keyboard. LOL!

Happy Birthday!
Thanks dude!
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Old 06-22-2021, 10:19 PM   #12
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I can't be the only one that plays rock/hard rock and...actually plays the whole song - can I? MOST every part, I will actually play, not copy/paste.

Ok, on occasion I will copy section(s), but overall I find that something is lost in having exactly the same dynamics with each repetition if it's not something that just gets buried in the mix. Just me, stuck in the old days maybe. When I need to repeat a section...it's not difficult at all, tho it may take maybe 2 minutes to do over the whole song, as opposed to hitting 1 key. I actually like the hands-on of that part, too. There are 100 ways to make a tune...
Nah mate. There are a few of 'us' still around.

Also, I have a '24 track limit' and I don't 'fix' timing and tuning.
I'm from the old 'four track cassette' days where you did everything by ear and not eye, and having no choice but to redo it when you f*** up really sharpened your playing up.
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Old 06-22-2021, 10:51 PM   #13
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I don't think it has to turn into "old vs new" type of thing in these threads! I think there's plenty of room here for different types of music makers and different approaches. Some love the "live feel" when recording stuff, in some genres it would feel out of place. I think music can be all and everything between. It's just that you like what you like and others may prefer something else!

And sure, the young are more likely to start with a computer rather than guitar to make music nowadays (easier access). And with most "electronic" or "computer-based" music genres are based on repetition. And I think Reaper could provide easy access tools for every genre.

But...seeing as there are only two developers, I seriously doubt we'll get something close to Playtime integrated into Reaper officially anytime soon! Which is too bad but it is what it is!

Just my 2 cents!

PW

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Old 06-22-2021, 11:28 PM   #14
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Nah mate. There are a few of 'us' still around.

Also, I have a '24 track limit' and I don't 'fix' timing and tuning.
I'm from the old 'four track cassette' days where you did everything by ear and not eye, and having no choice but to redo it when you f*** up really sharpened your playing up.

I'm with you mate. I record my bands live, then redo the vocals and add a lead solo,
No time shifting or autotune. Natural. If you can't play in time, then take lessons.
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Old 06-23-2021, 01:13 PM   #15
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To be clear, I'm an 'old school' player and used to be in a pub band. A clip in the Force/Ableton paradigm can be pretty much as long as you like, so I'm not advocating some kind of 'paint by numbers' assembly of small pieces of music (though, yes, of course a lot of EDM stuff is built that way). A clip can therefore be the entire runthrough of the whole song.

Point is, that this paradigm - record a take to a clip on a track - assemble the clips you like into a fresh 'scene' - play it - is turning out to be surprisingly natural in terms of how music itself is defined - verse, chorus, bridge, middle 8 etc. There is structure in music that the linear tape recorder paradigm simply doesn't expose naturally. [ yes, markers. I know]. Hence - if Reaper had a view that more closely worked with this paradigm I think it could be very valuable. Once you have everything the way you want, switch to linear view to handle the post-production mixing process, which IS a linear process. But composition and performance, maybe not so much, I mean, we routinely 'comp' in vocal takes and stuff, after all. Most classical recordings were not made with a single performance; particularly solo piano, where the performer's mistakes were spliced out with another take.
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Old 06-24-2021, 12:46 AM   #16
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Can someone use the word "paradigm" again, please? I mean, it's not as if I'm sick of seeing it or anything.
Here ya go:
https://images.app.goo.gl/WPCFECU2f5nuw1c89
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Old 06-24-2021, 01:55 AM   #17
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Good stuff in this convo - where is the 'like' button? There's nothing wrong with alternate or co-existing paradigms, noooo. My comment(s) are only regarding the continued usefulness of DAWs like Reaper...I think they'll be around a while yet, even as entirely new forms of music evolve. The winds of change may blow in our faces, but I mean - classical is still appreciated a few hundred years later and all. The electric guitar isn't 100 yet.

Don't discount the returning phases of love for past tech, either. (refer to the Jack White type, now the 2nd generation to 'discover' the blues and old recording methods)

New tech beyond what we're discussing here will surely come along, too. I think of it as just adding new tools to the toolbox. Right tool for the job and all that.
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Old 06-24-2021, 06:02 AM   #18
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..

New tech beyond what we're discussing here will surely come along, too. I think of it as just adding new tools to the toolbox. Right tool for the job and all that.
Indeed. Insisting the beats & loops (call it EDM type) method should replace the current way as the dominant way to make music is naive and depressing. Nothing wrong with it as an alternative though. As another tool In the box.
Indeed a more fluid looping system that doesn't strictly require an external hardware box for live looping would be a welcome addition to traditional stop start multi track methods.
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Old 06-24-2021, 06:13 AM   #19
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I'm old enough to have been immersed into music from the 20's to the 70's (via my parents), but still young enough to have an ear that somehow can pick out "computer" music instantly... and it all sounds like Donkey Kong to me.
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Old 06-24-2021, 06:25 AM   #20
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I think there's plenty of room here for different types of music makers and different approaches. Some love the "live feel" when recording stuff, in some genres it would feel out of place.
I agree it's more genre based which is fine. I come more from the old rocker world and at the same time I occasionally rip out something more EDM'ish cuz I simply like synths (I have plenty of examples of both). With the former, I may start with copy/paste just because it's faster to arrange and figure out what I want the tune to be, then I'll record/perform it again formally, other times I just play/perform it all from the get go.

If more electronic, there's a high chance the entire composition beginning to end I will do with a mouse and a controller, because that's the better method for that sound/genre. So I don't really see a better worse here, it's more about application on a case-by-case basis. I never really chose a genre as if it were my favorite ball team, I just gravitate to what I like (or can do best) at a given time, tomorrow it might be bluegrass/EDM who knows.

That said, for the more classic guitar/bass/drums approach, I been using a Tascam 24 for prepro stuff exactly because it gives me a break from a #$^&# @$%%# computer.
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Old 06-24-2021, 07:49 AM   #21
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Along the same lines I knew a couple where both husband and wife were phd's. I referred to them as a pair o' docs.
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Old 06-24-2021, 09:22 AM   #22
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Electronic music doesn't have to mean EDM. Though it probably does for the most part if any commercial success is the aim/dream.

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Along the same lines I knew a couple where both husband and wife were phd's. I referred to them as a pair o' docs.
Very good.

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Now that's witty. Very good, made me laugh, wasn't expecting that.
I was thinking the same thing when I watch the Win 11 reveal just now.

Never mind all that!, woohoo!!!
I'm super pumped about the slight changes to Windows in Windows 11, unbelievable, YEAH, slightly different in a truly incredible way. Super pumped, yeah!

The histrionic language in the Windows 11 reveal was hilariously OTT. I think I might have missed the release date, or even whether they were planning to charge for this new operating system/series of subtle (and mainly cosmetic) updates.
I will look forward to putting the start button back on the left where it belongs (if they allow that immediately - otherwise wait for an update to allow that after all the inevitable complaints).

It all looks slightly nicer to be fair - there you go Microsoft you can have that one for the honest sales pitch!
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Old 06-24-2021, 10:41 AM   #23
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I only call it EDM because I have zero idea of proper electronic music names, nor do I care about genre names generally for anything because I always found them limiting. I have maybe 10 electronic tunes I've recorded over the last 10 years, I don't have the slightest idea of what genre they would be LOL, I just know they generally don't have guitars or vocals and are mostly synths.
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Old 06-24-2021, 02:04 PM   #24
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I only call it EDM because I have zero idea of proper electronic music names, nor do I care about genre names generally for anything because I always found them limiting. I have maybe 10 electronic tunes I've recorded over the last 10 years, I don't have the slightest idea of what genre they would be LOL, I just know they generally don't have guitars or vocals and are mostly synths.
I know, lots of electronic music that you cannot possibly dance to gets labelled EDM.
Indeed labels are limiting.
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Old 06-24-2021, 08:53 PM   #25
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Now I know that sounds like a contradiction,
but here's the thing:

Over many years, I've realised that capturing the spark of the creative moment and faffing around on the computer are two mutually opposing things. Even with any amount of project template customising and whatnot, and much experimenting with external control surfaces of various sorts, and touch screen laptops etc, it's clear that when you just want to put some ideas down - at least, in my case - you really don't want to also be your own engineer at the same time.
That's absolutely true!

But ...

... it is not a question of "which DAW you use".
It's more related to switching work and mind modes:

When "performing" you are the creative instrumentalist
or vocalist who walks above the clouds and tells stories.
When "recording with the DAW", on the other hand, you are
the meticulous, pea-counting software person who pays
close attention to control and recording technology.

And if you want to be both in one person, then you have
- for better or for worse - to practice this mental switching.
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Old 06-24-2021, 09:02 PM   #26
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Point is, that this paradigm - record a take to a clip on a track - assemble the clips you like into a fresh 'scene' - play it - is turning out to be surprisingly natural in terms of how music itself is defined - verse, chorus, bridge, middle 8 etc.

There is structure in music that the linear tape recorder paradigm simply doesn't expose naturally. Hence - if Reaper had a view that more closely worked with this paradigm I think it could be very valuable.

Once you have everything the way you want, switch to linear view to handle the post-production mixing process, which IS a linear process.

But composition and performance, maybe not so much, I mean, we routinely 'comp' in vocal takes and stuff, after all. Most classical recordings were not made with a single performance; particularly solo piano, where the performer's mistakes were spliced out with another take.
Yes, I absolutely agree with you!

Music always has to do with "repetitive structures" - whether classical,
rock or EDM. And yes, Reaper struggles with "repetitive structures".
This is exactly the reason why I started this initiative: repetitive
structures in Reaper


In short: You can work with repetitive parts in Reaper if you
use subprojects. However, the handling of sub-projects is a bit
tedious and difficult.
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Old 06-25-2021, 04:00 AM   #27
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Indeed labels are limiting.
Not enough headroom, too much compressing into a box
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Old 06-25-2021, 05:38 AM   #28
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Not enough headroom, too much compressing into a box
Um, sounds like your "compressor" needs lubricating said the actress to the bishop.
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Old 06-25-2021, 06:27 AM   #29
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I'm unsure of the controversy of the OP. Or the 'DAW vs. nonDAW' thing. If you want to record a piece in sections that will be looped, what is stopping you?

Record Intro, Verse, Bridge, Chorus. Make each into a region. Copy and arrange those regions. Done.

If you want a real creative buzzkill, try doing it with a grease pencil, razor blade and 2" tape. Yet some extremely creative music was created this way - Tubular Bells, Kraftwerk, Jan Hammer, a large number of repeating sounds on Dark Side Of The Moon (notably, when they looped a 12 foot piece of tape around a mic stand for a long echo), etc.

It's no different than using the old Sony Acid 'DAW', except perhaps for their specialized loop tags (BPM, etc.). You put together the pieces, then hit play. What's the problem? What, exactly, would you wish for to make it better?
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Old 06-25-2021, 09:11 AM   #30
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OP using AKAI FORCE HARDWARE for sophisticated looping control:





https://www.nablatools.com/index.php/installation/
Live looping using Reaper NABLA SOFTWARE:

https://www.nablatools.com/index.php/demos/


Super 8 Looper with Kenny:


And how Justin Frankel uses it
:
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Old 06-25-2021, 01:12 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by ajaym View Post
Interesting responses and thanks. On the subject of sampled loops I totally agree. I hate them. But the scene/clip paradigm seems to me, even if the clips are totally your own work, to map much more naturally not just to EDM but to almost any musical style. Even classical music has a theme, first subject, second subject, exposition etc and so there are patterns and repeats that the linear tape paradigm just doesn't handle cleanly. Just playing with the looper on the Force is a reminder that creativity is a non-linear process. I love Reaper very much but I wish it embraced alternative paradigms rather than just being a sophisticated evolution of my old Revox a77. Yes, it'll capture a live performance wonderfully. But - did you know - groups are a thing of the past. The solo singer songwriter now dominates the charts. And when you are no longer linearly developing ideas, then you need tools that map to your creativity.
Just use hackey patterns.
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Old 06-25-2021, 01:45 PM   #32
TonE
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Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Yes, I absolutely agree with you!

Music always has to do with "repetitive structures" - whether classical,
rock or EDM. And yes, Reaper struggles with "repetitive structures".
This is exactly the reason why I started this initiative: repetitive
structures in Reaper


In short: You can work with repetitive parts in Reaper if you
use subprojects. However, the handling of sub-projects is a bit
tedious and difficult.
Or we need Super8Midi, Super8 for midi, not audio.
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Old 06-25-2021, 01:58 PM   #33
TonE
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Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
And how Justin Frankel uses it[/B]:
I like in Justin's video:
- [x] great explanation of feedback setup
- [x] great use of toggle midi mapping option for bypass toggling fx (btw. I suggested the addition of toggle parameter long time ago, was my only wish, and Reaper devs added it, thanks Reaper devs again!, and I was using it exactly in this form, mainly for bypass toggling, no matter if it is the real Bypass parameter of any fx, or some internal ones, like of boreg's real-time transpose, where I was using this, in four different instances per track, +12, +24, -12, -24 semi-tone transpositions). Bypass option of midi mapping when used together momentary midi buttons (on your hardware) is a must for me. Lots of fun. Hold button, hearing something different, release, sound is changing back. Now doing this for a few more buttons, there you go, lots of fun space. Effects in, effects out, transpose up, transpose down, as long or as short as you wish. Momentary sample break manipulations.
- [x] great use of pin switching using reaeq

I guess if Justin would do similar such videos from time to time we would learn much more efficient uses. Like I never used this feedback technique. Great. Reminded me of Simon Posford old video, check the end of that video:
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Old 06-25-2021, 02:18 PM   #34
TonE
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I like this session of Justin, minute 17 is great. Start listening from 15:45. Cool Justin. I like the mix of both vocals, deeper, then higher.

Justin, not sure how you made the midi annotations, but very useful as well. With such a system anyone could demonstrate their midi hardware interfaces/functionality with real examples, not only as dry manual descriptions. For the watchers it also gets very easy to follow what is doing when, what. Best musical manual one could say.

Last edited by TonE; 06-26-2021 at 01:32 AM.
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Old 06-25-2021, 08:50 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by TonE View Post
I like this session of Justin, minute 17 is great. Start listening from 15:45. Cool Justin. I like the mix of both vocals, deeper, then higher.

Justin, not sure how you made the midi annotations, but very useful as well.
Woah, that is cool. Would like to know as well. Super8 is fantastic.
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