Old 09-13-2019, 02:16 AM   #1
enroe
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Default repetitive structures

repetitive structures

Unless you compose Free Jazz, repetitive structures play
a prominent role if you compose music. Whether you
create "classic", "drum'n bass", "EDM", "Pop" or "Rock" -
repeating parts are most important. They define the character
of a track. And of course - one capital function of a DAW is
to facilitate thee "repetitive structures" of a song.

Now let's take a look at Reaper: How does Reaper support
repetitive structures?

repetitive midi parts

For midi you just do a "pooled copy" of the midi-item - and
that's it: All changes you do in one of these copies instantly
applies to all the other "pooled copies".

This works with automation items too: You can pool-copy
the automation item, and thus create many identical
instances of this single item.

But what about audio parts?

repetitive audio parts

Audio clips can be copied anywhere - and so you can
create as many instances of an audio-wave as you like.
So there shouldn't be a problem.

But normally ...

... in an average song you would edit an audio clip. Imagine
a guitar phrase or a vocal line which has to be optimized.
That means you cut the audio-wav into single syllables
and edit them: Some syllables must be stretched longer,
some must be shorter, some fades have to be changed etc.
etc.

After finishing many edits you want this audio-phrase to
become a repetitive part of the song. This means you
have to pool-copy the whole part of wav-fragments and
wav-fades. What to do?

The Reaper expert now raises his hand and shouts
"subprojects!" Ok, let's see ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subprojects

Yeaaaah, subprojects are a very elegant way of modularization
in Reaper. So our heavily edited wave-fragments can be
turned into a subproject. Therefor we have to do the following
steps:

1. Open the project settings
2. Set the recording folder
3. Select all audio-wav fragments
4. Action "create subproject from items"
5. Open the Audio Bay
6. Search for the new created subproject
7. Rename the subproject
8. Tab line on top: Load the just renamed subproject
9. Create and adapt regions for this subproject
10. Delete old unrenamed subproject parts (peak file a.o.)
11. Parentproject: Copy the subproject-wav to its various
positions.

Ok, after doing these steps (1) -- (11) you've done a perfect
job - and it looks quite good.

But .... let's think about it a little: How do other DAWs treat
this problem of "repetitive audio-wavs"? Or - apart from other
DAWs - can you imagine a faster way of dealing with repetitive
audios? Mmm ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Repetitive audio-wavs: Box!

The answer is easy: Just draw "a box" around the
audio-wavs and say "Box". We'll have only three fast steps:

1. Select all audio-wav fragments
2. Action: Box
3. Copy the Boxes "pooled" to all its places.

So there we are - a little faster - and not less elegant! The
only drop of bitterness is: Reaper still does not have such
a "Box".
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:30 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
[size=3]
Repetitive audio-wavs: Box!

The answer is easy: Just draw "a box" around the
audio-wavs and say "Box". We'll have only three fast steps:

1. Select all audio-wav fragments
2. Action: Box
3. Copy the Boxes "pooled" to all its places.

So there we are - a little faster - and not less elegant! The
only drop of bitterness is: Reaper still does not have such
a "Box".
This is what I about to explore with an script called mpl_Explode subproject. It is in early development stage, but it is a single action to extract everything from subproject back to main (aka "unpack the box"). And 1-10 steps could be done with a custom script (but not easy in some points).
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:29 AM   #3
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It might be nice to have a feature like that and it might not be that out of reach. There's a workaround that relies on a little forethought.

There's the source audio file that all the original multiple instances of items are copies of. When you render your edit (with new splits and fades and so forth), render the file so that it has the same start point as the source audio for the original. If the item in question is a ways into the source file, that would be clumsy. So then you glue the section first before you start the edit.

When you're done, if your render has the same start point as the original or glued file, you can select all the other instances of that original item and replace the source audio file with your render.

I bet something could analyze them files and do that without you having forethought to make those required setup moves.
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Old 09-15-2019, 06:18 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpl View Post
This is what I am about to explore with an script called mpl_Explode subproject. It is in early development stage, but it is a single action to extract everything from subproject back to main (aka "unpack the box")....
Ohh yeah, this is just another possibility of doing something, back from a
subproject into the parentproject. It doesn't really solve the "box-problem",
but it opens other facilities.
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Old 09-15-2019, 06:23 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
There's the source audio file that all the original multiple instances of items are copies of. When you render your edit (with new splits and fades and so forth), render the file so that it has the same start point as the source audio for the original. If the item in question is a ways into the source file, that would be clumsy. So then you glue the section first before you start the edit.

When you're done, if your render has the same start point as the original or glued file, you can select all the other instances of that original item and replace the source audio file with your render.
Yes, this is one workaround: You can substitute the source-wav in an item,
which is pooled.

But - as you foretold already - it is not ergonomic and intuitive.
So a native solution with a graphical representation as "box" would
be nice IMO.
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Old 10-23-2019, 12:25 PM   #6
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Dont know how I missed this thread, but you certainly have my attention.
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Old 12-18-2019, 12:31 PM   #7
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Now that we have version 6.0 - very happily -
maybe the idea of "repitive structures", also for
audio-items, can gain attention again ...
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Old 12-18-2019, 08:51 PM   #8
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Ever consider selecting all those bits of audio items and gluing them?

Once glued, I slip edit one edge of the new single item to the desired loop length, then copy it as needed.
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Old 12-20-2019, 05:35 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
Ever consider selecting all those bits of audio items and gluing them?

Once glued, I slip edit one edge of the new single item to the desired loop length, then copy it as needed.
Yes - thank you Philbo!

That is exactly what "serr" - see above - suggested. Also this
is one of the workarounds discussed here.

The point is: If you have multiple chorusses in a song (which is
just a "repetitive part") you have to do this action tediously
for every copied item source again.

My problem is: I often change little parts in the chorus - fade-
curves, volumes of item-fragments or anything. And every time
I do that I have to do the tedious painful multicopy
workaround-action. Of course, if you invest enough time you
can do that, but every other DAW spares these workarounds.
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Old 12-20-2019, 10:29 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Yes - thank you Philbo!

That is exactly what "serr" - see above - suggested. Also this
is one of the workarounds discussed here.

The point is: If you have multiple chorusses in a song (which is
just a "repetitive part") you have to do this action tediously
for every copied item source again.

My problem is: I often change little parts in the chorus - fade-
curves, volumes of item-fragments or anything. And every time
I do that I have to do the tedious painful multicopy
workaround-action. Of course, if you invest enough time you
can do that, but every other DAW spares these workarounds.
Ah, that's the price of edit-based music creation.

I try to edit as little as possible by recording multiple takes of the entire work. I can almost always get a satisfactory result by take selection, with minimal edits. For me, it's always much faster to record (or record again) than to edit. It also helps avoid 'creeping perfectionism' which ultimately seems to suck the spirit and soul out of the music.
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Old 02-06-2020, 06:02 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
Ah, that's the price of edit-based music creation.

I try to edit as little as possible by recording multiple takes of the entire work. I can almost always get a satisfactory result by take selection, with minimal edits. For me, it's always much faster to record (or record again) than to edit. It also helps avoid 'creeping perfectionism' which ultimately seems to suck the spirit and soul out of the music.
Your way of recording is very efficient and elegant - no doubt!

And yes, in the first stage I also do record the whole song, but
after a time I need to do edits. It is the "second stage of
recording". Here all recordings are selected and optimized. And
that is the point at which the "handling and editing of repetitive
structures" becomes more and more important.

Also consider all the musicians who come from Ableton and Bitwig
- and who are used to a repetitive pattern-based approach.
These musicians need these repetitive abilities even more
essentially!
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Old 07-24-2020, 04:13 AM   #12
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Oyeah, once again I stumble upon this problem:
Managing repetitive Songparts
. That is almost
impossible in Reaper. Unfortunately!
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Old 12-26-2020, 02:41 AM   #13
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An inconspicuous pushing up!
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Old 12-26-2020, 04:16 AM   #14
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Just in case, this particular thread brings up my perennial request for some sort of proper means of shuffling parts around in an arrangement without having to resort to selecting them within the tcp, copy, move to where you want it, paste it & then go back and repeat for every single piece on every single track, which may be an exaggeration. but.
Bars n Pipes Pro (prehistoric Amiga program) allows you to open a small rectangular window with a bunch of squares in it. Each square represents a bar for each individual piece of the project.
You can cut move copy paste etc., either individual bars for individual tracks, or select the whole row of tracks for as long as you like and then copy & paste, delete, move or what ever you want with a couple of clicks.

WHY CANT WE DO THIS IN REAPER?

I already did a FR for this years ago & it didnt gain any traction, but I am now seriously wondering about doing a new one. The concept is simple. dead easy to learn and SO effective in terms of speeding up arranging.
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Old 12-30-2020, 03:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
...
Bars n Pipes Pro (prehistoric Amiga program)
...
You can cut move copy paste etc., either individual bars for individual tracks, or select the whole row of tracks for as long as you like and then copy & paste, delete, move or what ever you want with a couple of clicks.

WHY CANT WE DO THIS IN REAPER?
So yes - but I would be humbly satisfied if we only took one small
step: If we simply had a box for summarizing audio snippets ...
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Old 01-27-2021, 09:09 AM   #16
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I'd like to chime in and say that yes reaper totally needs more tools for managing repetitive musical structures. Copy and paste is so 1995.
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Old 01-30-2021, 07:51 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teeramusic View Post
I'd like to chime in and say that yes reaper totally needs more tools for managing repetitive musical structures. Copy and paste is so 1995.
Yes, definitely!

For midi items you can still make do with providing each
individual midi item with "pooled copy". But we're lost
when editing Audo: No chance - unless you take the
tedious, arduous route via subprojects.
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Old 02-23-2021, 06:26 AM   #18
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I very much wish that this would be worked on. I'ts an every day struggle.
Since I know that cubase did it right I always play with the idea of... but no, reaper is my great love.
But I want this box !
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Old 03-15-2021, 03:34 PM   #19
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Default pooled midi excerpts ???

If I make a midi drum pattern and paste it out randomly.
Can I update that midi drum pattern and it will update the copies of that??
Several different patterns all in the same midi lane ???

I mean this is crucial to drum programming. and I am doing it manually, it's driving me freaking nuts.

How to pool midi excerpts ?

Thank you!

5ynth.
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Old 06-18-2021, 03:42 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5ynth3t1k View Post
If I make a midi drum pattern and paste it out randomly. Can I update that midi drum pattern and it will update the copies of that? Several different patterns all in the same midi lane?
Yes, you can do this if you "pool" the midi-item.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5ynth3t1k View Post
How to pool midi excerpts ?
Select the item, then go to the item-properties (F2): There is
a checkbox called "Pool". Check this box. Each copy of the item
is then automatically a "pooled" copy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5ynth3t1k View Post
I mean this is crucial to drum programming. and I am doing it manually, it's driving me freaking nuts.
Yes exactly. This is not only important for drum programming.
Because guitar riffs or organ phrases should also be repeated
in the chorus. It's even more important for vocals!

-- Midi --

As long as we are in the MIDI area, Reaper can do that well.
As already said above: You can work wonderfully with pooled
items.

-- Audio --

But as soon as we look at audio constructs, Reaper cannot
do this. The only way to repetitively arrange audio areas is
through subprojects. Subprojects, however, are comparatively
laborious and inflexible in terms of handling. And that's
exactly why we need something like "Pooled Boxes" or
"meta-items"
.

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Old 06-19-2021, 08:19 AM   #21
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Default the reaper way is grouping

your forgetting about grouping , you group the items your going to use
then you turn off grouping to edit indivdual copies

regions is really powerful for arrangements of the basic sturctures
(bass drums keys )
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Old 06-21-2021, 02:54 PM   #22
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I have posted on this separately but my solution was to purchase an akai force which has proven to be a brilliant way of capturing patterns and sketches and then exporting stuff to reaper for polishing. I get this is not a cheap solution but the hardware is top quality and probably the best investment ive ever made in the studio
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Old 06-24-2021, 09:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
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Your forgetting about grouping, you group the items your going to use, then you turn off grouping to edit indivdual copies
Yes, thanks for bringing in "Groups"!

With "Groups" we can combine parts - i.e. items, audio clips
and automation items - into one entity. We can then all copy
together - very nice!

However, if you have 3 or 4 or more such group entities in the
Arrange window, then it becomes very confusing. You can of
course manage the item groups in the Project Bay, but there is
no graphical representation in the Arrange window.

But let's think further:

Imagine you have various item groups (bass lines, guitar riffs,
vocal parts etc) that you have copied to the various places in
your song. So far so good!

If you have to make a change in one of these groups, e.g. want
to make a crossfade much longer, what do you do? In practice
this happens often, even all the time. But what do you do?

Well, you have to select the original group and then copy it again
to all previously copied places - in exactly the right places.
Pooh, that is tedious and takes time. And exactly this thread
is all about these "mouse copy actions".

A complex and advanced arranged song - whether EDM, rock,
pop or classical - contains many such repetitive parts - and
every change to these parts leads to a mouse-copying orgy. At
least in Reaper.

Reaper has so-called "subprojects" with which "repetitive parts"
can be integrated well - and a song can also be modularized.
But unfortunately these subprojects are not a really good
solution. A good solution would be "Pooled Boxes"
or "Meta- Items"
.

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Old 06-24-2021, 09:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat Machine View Post
regions is really powerful for arrangements of the basic sturctures
(bass drums keys )
Yes, yes: Laying out a song - 3 steps
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Old 06-24-2021, 10:07 PM   #25
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I have posted on this separately, but my solution was to purchase an akai force which has proven to be a brilliant way of capturing patterns and sketches and then exporting stuff to reaper for polishing. I get this is not a cheap solution, but the hardware is top quality and probably the best investment ive ever made in the studio
Haja, "Akai Force" is basically a DAW on its own hardware with a
tiny touch screen. The intuitive, immediate recording without
starting up a PC is of course interesting.
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Old 10-06-2021, 01:52 AM   #26
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Regarding "repetitions":

Since the very beginning music always has consisted of
repetitions. Any arbitrary string of notes is actually not
perceived as music. Only when certain sections are repeated
does a melody become recognizable; this is the process in
which music is created. Johann Sebastian Bach allowed the art
of composing, and thus also of repetitions in different
variations, to rise to its peak.

With today's modern DAWs this "repetition" is optimally
supported, and so composing songs is really easy today.
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Old 11-12-2021, 04:15 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Bars n Pipes Pro (prehistoric Amiga program) allows you to open a small rectangular window with a bunch of squares in it. Each square represents ...
Oh, how nice it was back then ...

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Old 12-27-2021, 02:44 AM   #28
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... But I want this box !
Yeah, yeah!

Time to think again about "repetitive structures" ...
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Old 12-27-2021, 10:12 AM   #29
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Just a note that I'm currently developing the solution for this feature. enroe doubts that it can be done with ReaScript, but that's just due to lack of knowledge imo.

I have already surmounted all the most difficult hurdles and am now just doing the heavy lifting in the code to complete it. It's a very large project (2000 lines) but I'm hoping it will be done early 2022. Keep an eye out on the script forum for my announcement.
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Old 01-07-2022, 02:52 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by MonkeyBars View Post

enroe doubts that it can be done with ReaScript, but that's just due to lack of knowledge imo.
Hayeah - maybe there is something to it.

First of all: I admire your commitment and the work that you are
investing here. That is really great and worthy of any appreciation.

The subject of "repetitive structures" however - and that is the
point here - is very fundamental. It's not "just any feature" that you
would like to have. No! It is the fundamental feature that
distinguishes DAWs from simple tape machines.

Therefore it is more natural that every DAW I know (Apple Logic,
Cubase, Ableton, Bitwig, ...), EVERY(!) does support repetitive
structures pretty well.

Except for Reaper. There are "subprojects" - but as already
discussed a thousand times - these are more of a laborious
quasi-solution.

And that's exactly why a solution to this problem in Reaper should
actually be a native solution: Because it's fundamental, because
referential audio parts actually appear all the time - in every song
and every project.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Nevertheless: I am of course looking forward to your project,
MonkeyBars. And I wish you the greatest success with it. So I like
to be positively surprised - even if I still have doubts that it will
work.

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Old 01-07-2022, 04:30 AM   #31
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I have just re-read this whole thread & the main difficulty to me seems to be that we all have DIFFERENT ideas as to how we could improve reaper`s repetitive structure options.

Because of our extremely varied different experience with other sequencers/DAWs, there is still no cohesion.

In other words, we still haven`t come up with a coherent, rational, LOGICAL and of course dead-easy-to-program feature request. ( an ironic to us all)
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Old 01-07-2022, 07:57 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Hayeah - maybe there is something to it.

First of all: I admire your commitment and the work that you are
investing here. That is really great and worthy of any appreciation. ...

Nevertheless: I am of course looking forward to your project,
MonkeyBars. And I wish you the greatest success with it. So I like
to be positively surprised - even if I still have doubts that it will
work.

Thanks enroe

I'm really looking forward to seeing the look on your face when the long awaited feature arrives in your Reaper install 😌
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Old 01-11-2022, 02:45 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post

I have just re-read this whole thread & the main difficulty
to me seems to be that we all have DIFFERENT ideas as to how
we could improve reaper`s repetitive structure options.

Because of our extremely varied different experience with
other sequencers/DAWs, there is still no cohesion.

In other words, we still haven`t come up with a coherent,
rational, LOGICAL and of course dead-easy-to-program
feature request. ( an ironic to us all)
Hayeah, Ivansc, thank you for that thought! And yes, there are a
large number of users who have brought their thoughts here
with very different terms. I am thinking of:

"Referenced objects generally" by Joystick.
"Item Patterns" by Ivannn Bennnettt -with 3"n"+3"t".
"Meta-Items" by andyp24.
"Edit copied regions together" by poetnprophet.
"Audio Containers" by Trancit .
"Item Folders" by Buy One .
"Blocks " by BirdBird .
"Ghost Copies" by stk .
"Non desctructively glue ..." by matthewjumpsoffbuildings .
"Cubase parts" by vanhaze .
"An item composed of samples" by sorath72 .
"Media Container" by reveriedive .
.... and many others.

So I agree: You could think that these are all soooo DIFFERENT
ideas that they are confusing and muddleheaded. If you look at all
these threads, it looks torn and splintered!

But they are not!

Because the basic idea is always very very simply the same:

1. Select a number of audio items and create a new item from
them. You can call that somehow. The suggestions so far have
been:

----------------------------------------
name (author)
----------------------------------------
1. meta-items (andyp24)
2. live-subprojects (mschnell)
3. item-boxes
4. item-container
5. supergroups (andyp24)
6. smart groups
7. item-patterns (Ivannn Bennnettt)
8. audio-boxes (my favourite name)
9. rea parts (Win Conway)
10. draggable blocks (IadAslan)
11. media items (Justin+John)
12. container items (Justin+John)
13. media container (reveriedive)
----------------------------------------

So now we have a new item. The second step is:

2. Create one or very many references of this item in
other places.

----------- Conclusion -----------

It's always just these two steps. In other words, the idea
is actually very simple (even if its implementation is probably
complicated)
.

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Last edited by enroe; 01-11-2022 at 02:45 AM. Reason: small typos
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Old 01-12-2022, 05:23 PM   #34
SmoothOperator
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I'd like to chime in as an arm chair song writer. While music are certainly structured, I personally don't reuse much in the way of samples. Its almost like a rule I have never repeat the same sample. Record it again, notate the midi again but differently, but seldom duplicate. Except maybe for like a bass drum track or snare track. I literally play all the tracks out maybe in take forms. Anyway, jumping to regions would be nice, but I don't really see all that much need for literal duplication.
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Old 01-14-2022, 07:43 AM   #35
enroe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
I'd like to chime in as an arm chair song writer.
You're welcome!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
While music are certainly structured, I personally don't reuse much in the way of samples. Its almost like a rule I have never repeat the same sample. Record it again, notate the midi again but differently, but seldom duplicate. Except maybe for like a bass drum track or snare track. I literally play all the tracks out maybe in take forms. Anyway, jumping to regions would be nice, but I don't really see all that much need for literal duplication.
Ah, sure, I get your point. Nobody should be forced to work with
repetitions. And in many song situations it is certainly beneficial to work
without exact repetitions.

Just as it might not be good to use EQ on this or that track, repetition
patterns are often inappropriate. But we still need an EQ in other
situations. And so it is with the repetitions:

In a dynamic and often darned song work, you sometimes work for a long
time on exactly one drum groove line or on one bass line. And it should
appear again in the same way in other places where there is also a bridge
or a chorus.

And as you wrote: You don't always need a repeat pattern like this - but
depending on the way you work and the depth you need it sometimes very
urgently!

In some genres, repetitive patterns are even quite essential. DAWs like
Ableton are even geared towards it.

And the particular advantage of DAWs over previous tape machines is that
you can copy snippets here and there and you can work with repetitions.
Any DAW I've worked with - except Reaper - can handle any type of
repetition pretty neatly.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

One more remark ...

... on recordings and song compositions in the area of rock, pop or
electronics:

Of course, you won't want to repeat any part here, be it chorus or
bridge, exactly note for note. Variations are just the beauty.

But some important parts of bridge or chorus - e.g. the bassline, or
the 4th backing guitar, should be exactly the same. The variation comes
in enough from other instruments - guitars, vocals, etc. But some parts
have to be exactly the same IMO!

Especially in the composing phase it often happens that you say: Hey,
this chord needs to be changed! Or: Here the bass should rather play
"Bb"! In that case I only want to adjust the underlying item ONCE.
And not for all repetitions that occur either.

So - when I ponder about it - then I think: Repeat patterns are a
crucial feature for every DAW. Really.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

On the other hand - I have to admit - I've gotten so used to the fact that Reaper
can't do iterations that it would almost bother me if Reaper suddenly - eventually -
could do it.
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