Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER Q&A, Tips, Tricks and Howto

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-03-2006, 04:01 PM   #1
Mtukufu
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 17
Default My first post - mic strategy to minimize pick clicks for guitar

Hi all,

I'm still in the tryout phase for Reaper. I've been using NTracks for years and read about Reaper in the NTrack forum of all places. NTracks will always have a fond place in my heart. Reaper has impressed me greatly however. It feels more intuitive, more stable and, despite Flavio's perseverence, more dynamic. I've encountered many, many fewer glitches with Reaper. Flavio I still love you! I'm sure I'll be using both systems since they're both very cost effective.

On to my question: I've made great progress in getting a good mic set up for my Martin acoustic guitar. I'm a rhythim guitarist. My issue however is the sound I keep getting of the pick clicking on the strings as I play. It irritates the bejesus out of me. I'm using an SM57 mic. I have an AT4040 mic too but I find I like that less than the SM 57 for my guitar. I imagine I'm doing something wrong for that to be the case. But that's not my question here...

I point the SM57 to where the neck of the guitar joins the body. I have a Behringer Eurorack (don't you just love that name? Like a gradeschool form of waterboarding) 1240. I find I have to turn the EQ up on the Behringer to get enough gain so I can place the SM57 9 to 12 inches from the guitar, which is what I have consistently seen to be the recommended distance. How do I get rid of that clicking? I use a plastic pick. I'm thinking I need to point the SM57 towards the join of the neck of the guitar and the body, angling slightly away from the sound hole (OK I won't comment more on that term. Let's just enjoy it), and where the pick meets the strings. Is that the ticket? Please, any suggestions welcome.

Thanks a lot :-)

Hugh
Mtukufu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2006, 11:56 PM   #2
Andywanders
Human being with feelings
 
Andywanders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,113
Default

Mic choice and placement are crucial to capturing a good acoustic guitar sound - and you do have a good acoustic there :-) But don't get too bogged down in what other's recommend, though that's usually a good place to start. It's always a good idea to experiment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtukufu View Post
...I find I have to turn the EQ up on the Behringer to get enough gain so I can place the SM57 9 to 12 inches from the guitar, which is what I have consistently seen to be the recommended distance. How do I get rid of that clicking? I use a plastic pick. I'm thinking I need to point the SM57 towards the join of the neck of the guitar and the body, angling slightly away from the sound hole (OK I won't comment more on that term. Let's just enjoy it), and where the pick meets the strings. Is that the ticket? Please, any suggestions welcome...
The fact that you're using EQ to increase gain is a cause for concern. That's not what EQ is designed for. If there's not enough gain from the SM57 it's probably because it's placed too far from the source. Bring it closer, but bear in mind that the 57 has a proximity effect so moving it closer will increase the bass and might even make the guitar sound boomy. So, try moving it closer to the neck to reduce the bass and pick up more string noise.

Also, if you're recording with a compressor, don't (for now). A compressor could emphasise the attack (depending on the settings) and that's where the pick noise is.

Another suggestion is to try a small condenser which is often preferable to a large diaphram mic as they usually produce a 'tighter' sound.

Acoustic guitar is definitely one of the most difficult instruments to record and there are probably as many different techniques as there are guitarists. The guitar, the player, the room, the mics and finally the sound you're going for are all variables that can never be the same for everyone. So I go back to my first comment - experiment.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
__________________
Some of My Songs

Andy M. VST
Andywanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2006, 02:35 AM   #3
Alistair S
Human being with feelings
 
Alistair S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,720
Default

I'm still experimenting to get a good acoustic sound too.

Like you, I have tried with a dynamic mic, but I had to get in very close to get an OK sound - and I wasn't satisfied.

I also have a large condenser, and I think that is better. Placement is critical, especially as I don't have a great room (so I don't want it too far away).

I recently bought a pair of small condensers. There was a problem with the mics (a long story, but have some new ones on order).

Even with the problem, however, it was obvious that the small condenser would be a good choice. Having a pair allowed greater room to experiment and get different sounds (some ideas here http://www.humbuckermusic.com/acguitrectec.html).

Everyone is looking for a specific sound, and everyone is different - as is every guitar, player, room etc. So experimentation is the key.

The small condensers, do look to be the best option to me. You could then even add in the large condenser or the dynamic for extra colour if you wanted.

My budget is fairly small. Looking around and listening to samples, the Oktava 012s looked the best option for me, and most people like them. I couldn't find any in the UK, however, but there is a source in Germany. I think they are easier to get in the USA. The MXL 603 is a very similar mic, and that is what I have gone for.

Different people will have other recommendations, I'm sure.
Alistair S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2006, 04:09 AM   #4
politcat
Human being with feelings
 
politcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: stuck in transition
Posts: 1,870
Default

would you mind posting a link to a snippet of your guitar playing. listeners might actually like it. i know it's about what you want, but what you find annoying may only be something you have to get used to in recording. it's obviously always there when you play anyway, you just notice it more when you record it.

i like pick attack on acoustic. and if your playing is really tight with the drums it can be used to tie the whole track together.

mics: shure sm81, great on nylon string gtr too. i use studio projects c1 with my steel string. i get the best sound with the c1 near the 8th fret. ha! a good mic is worth the extra expense! stretch as much as you can. it's the main thing between your instrument and the 1 and 0s.

depending on the freq and bandwidth, turning up eq will increase pick attack. i think thicker picks bring out upper harmonics more too. try different picks thickness-wise. i love super thin for strumming steel strings.

Last edited by politcat; 12-04-2006 at 04:23 AM.
politcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2006, 06:51 AM   #5
Mtukufu
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 17
Default Great replies

Thanks for the very helpful input. Indeed I was using a compressor. I'll quit doing that. And I'll feel free to move the mic around more. I'll try to put up a link of the sound I'm getting as well. Gotta figure out how to do that... And thanks for the link too to the website. I'll certainly be checking it out.

Hugh
Mtukufu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2006, 11:05 AM   #6
PapaRomeo
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 23
Default

Mac's response in this thread has some really good tips:

http://audiominds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2198

I'd second the suggestion to pick up a couple of condensor mikes. I record acoustics with a large-diaphragm condensor a couple of feet in front of the soundhole, and a small-diaphragm mike pointed at the 12th fret.

One other thing: The pick noise is part of a strummed acoustic sound -- but if it's not what you want, you could use a parametric EQ to dial in the offending high-end frequency and cut it out. Or you could try another approach altogether: have you tried strumming with your thumb or "flamenco style" with the backs of your fingernails? Another option would be to use a lighter-weight/thinner pick. All will change the sound, but if you don't like what you're getting, you have to change something!

Good luck!
PR
PapaRomeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2006, 12:04 PM   #7
yep
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,019
Default

This thread is all over the map already, but here goes...

The first problem may be trying to use "mic strategy" to "minimize pick clicks on acoustic guitar."

Is the mic causing the pick to click? Did the pick not click before you used the mic? The thing is, the mic hears the sounds the instrument makes. If you make a clicking sound, that's what the mic records. You can use positioning to play up/play down certain aspects of the sound somewhat, but this "clicking" may be something you're stuck with unless you change your technique or your strings or your whatever.

So the first thing is to back way up and make sure that the instrument is actually CREATING the sound(s) you want to capture. If you play the guitar and you like the way it sounds when you play it, try putting an omnidirectional mic over your shoulder right by your ear, so the mic hears what you hear. It should be remarkably similar.

If that isn't the sound you were hoping for then you're up against one of the problems with being performer, engineer, and assistant all in one. The right way to start is to have someone play the guitar while you, the engineer, walk around and listen to how it sounds from different locations, or have an assistant move a mic around while you listen to the monitors back in the control room.

One of the tricky things about acoustic guitar is that the performer is sitting inside the instrument's nearfield, where the sound can change drastically from one inch to the next. What you as the guitarist hears is often dramatically different from what the front-row audience hears a few feet away. You could try using an "audience mic" located several feet in front of you where someone else would be sitting if someone else were sitting there... this will capture the sound of the guitar as it was meant to be heard (at least theoretically-- these days instruments are not necessarily made for the benefit of audience members in an unamplified performance).

The thing is, you can only do so much, and only certain things with mic selection and placement. You can't make a cow sound like a chicken. it might be that you're using your mic wrong, but it might also be that you are simply not playing with the right combination of instrument and technique.

Parting thoughts:

Buy a whole lot of different picks and experiment with them. The pick matters when it comes to the sound of the guitar, and it is not always an intuitive difference. Often a heavier pick can deliver a rounder, mellower, less clackety tone. Felt picks are something else entirely.

Think about your strings.

Move your mic to un-obvious places and see what it does to the sound. Better yet, get a friend to help. It's hard to be a one-man record company AND to be finicky about the sonic results.

Think about your compressor and ways that it might be helpful.

Cheers.
yep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2006, 01:25 PM   #8
Diogenes
Human being with feelings
 
Diogenes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A place that allows me to protect myself...
Posts: 8,245
Default

Look also at your picking technique. I used to struggle with that pick sound myself. I use to hold the pick in a manner that let it "slap" a lot. Thicker picks helped but I hated using them. Compromise? I use a meduim gauge pick and play with the side of the pick instead of the point. Less pick "slap" this way.

Look at your pick technique. It certainly won't hurt. (Maybe?)

D
Diogenes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2006, 02:27 PM   #9
teej813
Human being with feelings
 
teej813's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,716
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yep View Post
If you play the guitar and you like the way it sounds when you play it, try putting an omnidirectional mic over your shoulder right by your ear, so the mic hears what you hear. It should be remarkably similar...

If that isn't the sound you were hoping for then you're up against one of the problems with being performer, engineer, and assistant all in one. The right way to start is to have someone play the guitar while you, the engineer, walk around and listen to how it sounds from different locations, or have an assistant move a mic around while you listen to the monitors back in the control room...
You're getting good advice here, Hugh. I'll add this...

Remember that listening to the guitar soloed will be quite different than listening when it's played with all other instruments (assuming there are more instruments in your song). In other words, that pick noise may be less noticable in a completed mix, and it may add presence to the accoustic that you'd miss if it was gone.

If i'm way off base here and you really need to eliminate that clicking, get someone to help with mic positioning. Also, don't be afraid to try a combo of the LD condensor sitting out front a few feet and the 57 in tight (may require some track adjustment for phase later on).

By the way, welcome to Reaper from another N user.


teej
__________________
It may be the devil, or it may be the Lord, but you're gonna hafta serve somebody.
__________________

Last edited by teej813; 12-31-2006 at 12:48 PM.
teej813 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2006, 08:02 PM   #10
Mtukufu
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 17
Default

Thanks :-)

And I really do appreciate the thoughtful replies. Very generous. When my budget allows I'll upgrade mics. Until then I'm playing with the SM57 closer to the guitar and the AT over my shoulder. Interesting. Also, the Behringer manual is a bit opaque to me (I'm not so much a tech guy) so I'm still not one hundred percent sure I've got it set up ideally. But the sound is improving.

Hugh
Mtukufu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2006, 08:34 PM   #11
todd24
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 914
Default

All really good sugestions. The pick type, size and where you strum (in relationship to the bridge) all have huge impact on tone and click. I agree alos with the notion that the click may b just what you need when placing the guitar into a mix. It can easily take up the space a high hat sits.

I have found the sm57 to do a good job with a ton of compression, when pulled away, and off axis to the source. It kinda starts to sound like a condenser. Do this in the best sounding part of your room though as you will be recording everything around you.
todd24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2006, 09:18 PM   #12
Andywanders
Human being with feelings
 
Andywanders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,113
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by todd24 View Post
I have found the sm57 to do a good job with a ton of compression, when pulled away, and off axis to the source. It kinda starts to sound like a condenser. Do this in the best sounding part of your room though as you will be recording everything around you.
__________________
Some of My Songs

Andy M. VST
Andywanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2006, 09:23 PM   #13
todd24
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andywanders View Post
Try it, its surprising.
todd24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2006, 02:41 PM   #14
Mtukufu
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 17
Default Links to samples

Politcat suggested I post a link to my playing. I've now figured out how to do that. Here are two examples. The pieces are under construction as it were. Drummer and bass player in AZ, keyboard player/vocalist in Cape Cod. Me in Brooklyn. We're sending wav. files back and forth. These two songs are without keyboards, vocals, etc. Don't Go There has the SM57 about 12 inches away from the guitar recorded with compression on. The AT4040 mic is farther out than that. Family Saint has just the SM57 three or four inches away from the 12th fret of the guitar. As you'll hear I'm mixed several tracks together for each song and panned with compression to get a sound I like. My issue with the picking sound was with Don't Go There in particular. The drums, etc. for both songs are deep in the background, just scratch tracks, as are the guitar tracks at this point I suppose. I'm also working with just headphones at the moment. So maybe this all sucks through speakers or monitors.

I hope putting these links in this thread is appropriate. I trust it is since I'm responding to a request. If not, sorry!!!

Don't Go There http://media.putfile.com/DontGoThereAcGuitAdd

Family Saint http://media.putfile.com/FSaintGutAdd

Thanks :-)

Hugh
Mtukufu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 07:32 AM   #15
Mtukufu
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 17
Default

Sorry about the sniff at the beginning of Family Saint lol. Should have edited it out.
Mtukufu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 08:05 AM   #16
Alistair S
Human being with feelings
 
Alistair S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,720
Default

I can hear what you mean, but I quite like it to be honest. I had to tune myself into the pick sound, and then it stood out - but up until then I had it down as a (pleasant) percussive effect and hadn't noticed it.

If you don't want it, and are listening for it, I could see how it would get to you though.

Good luck with the micing experiments! I suspect you may have the same sound with anything very close. Softer (or harder) pick maybe? Fingernails?
Alistair S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 08:15 AM   #17
politcat
Human being with feelings
 
politcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: stuck in transition
Posts: 1,870
Default

got it! awesome.

Last edited by politcat; 12-10-2006 at 08:23 AM.
politcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2006, 01:49 PM   #18
politcat
Human being with feelings
 
politcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: stuck in transition
Posts: 1,870
Default

i was listening to smashing pumpkins "disarm" unplugged version. lots of pick sound, very cool. check it out.
politcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2006, 03:18 PM   #19
eMaRe
Human being with feelings
 
eMaRe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 216
Default

When you do go mic shopping, this might help. JBM and I did some exhaustive testing with acoustic recording combining dynamics and condensers and using different placement. The result? It all depends what you want. Using a 57 gave it a punchy sound that cut through in a rock mix, the condensers of course sound more beuatiful and delicate due to their frequency and transient responses. The C1 won with a full complex tone. I'd also reccomend the Rode NT-1A.

One more mic position to add to the already great suggestions...One condenser a couple of feet in front of the sound hole, and one pointed down from above. That mic adds more of the sound you hear when you play. Panned out they are very nice.

Uless you are trying to color the sound before recording, which I don't think you want, go for neautral setting on the mixer. I believe the Euroracks have center detents at the neutral eq and gain settings. With condensers and phantom power, they will be loud enough to use these settings with no problem.

Hope some of this helps!
eMaRe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2006, 04:07 PM   #20
Alistair S
Human being with feelings
 
Alistair S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,720
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eMaRe View Post
I'd also reccomend the Rode NT-1A.

One more mic position to add to the already great suggestions...One condenser a couple of feet in front of the sound hole, and one pointed down from above. That mic adds more of the sound you hear when you play. Panned out they are very nice.
Agree on the Rode! It has the added advantage of being very quiet

One setup I am playing with and looks promising is to have a pair of small condensers set up in a vertical x-y (one pointing up and one down) around 12-18 inches from the fretboard (adjust position to taste) and a LD condenser low down around the bottom of the sound board.

I like the sound when you set up with one over the shoulder pointing down. As you say, it gives more the sound you are used to hearing. I'm a clumsy oaf though, so have to be careful as it is close to me.
Alistair S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2006, 05:24 PM   #21
Mtukufu
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 17
Default

I've learned more from this thread than I have in the however many years prior to making the post (more than I'd care to name). A big big thanks to the very generous and experienced people who have offered their views. Just amazing. You gotta love the Internet, and musicians.

Thanks again :-)

Hugh
Mtukufu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2006, 05:08 AM   #22
MikeLacey
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 789
Default

A few posts ago someone said that the pick sound wasn't intrusive and in fact added to the sound - I'd agree with that. It's a matter of taste (obviously) but the guitar sound on "Saint" makes me smile - nice.

Oh - my first post. Hello All - I'm very new to Reaper and just getting started.

Mike
MikeLacey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.