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Old 08-16-2019, 10:55 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post
Ok that is a good point about Y. For numbers, the current "standard" music system varies usage regarding numbers. These differences are also largely because of typesetting limitations too (fonts or scribes). In my newer theory textbook (published 2015)...
Maybe upload the book instead of rewriting it here?
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:57 AM   #82
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I disagree with it (well, except the part where numbers being correlated to intervals makes sense - it does).
I meant:
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See... because you spent time and effort to learn that "music language".
(me too, do not get me wrong... I had an A3 sketchbook filled up with chords and scales, handwritten by me using this ambiguous "music language").
It is awful. Took me 10+ years to realise it.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:03 AM   #83
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Ah. Well, I don't think it's awful even after taking the time to learn it (it didn't take an awfully long time to learn it, either).
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:08 AM   #84
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Diatonic notes
I'm not sure Diatonic is the best description for that. That was a particular scale, right. Diatonic means the "good named" notes are a subset of a particular scale. So it is best to name the scale at the start.

I think it would be best to think in terms of a typical jazz chart ("chord chart", which lists only chords above the single-line vocal melody, or maybe does not show melody at all, it only shows rhythmic slashes like "| / / |"). That chart is going to have a starting tonic. All the chords on the chart will follow that specification. If the key changes because of modulation...no problem, it's obvious, because the 0 chord suddenly becomes the 2 chord, then goes back to 0 chord again when original tonic is restored.


Is this any different from how a MIDI app would internally represent the music? There's no way that Band In A Box is using static strings "| E-7 A-7 | D-7 G7b9 | C6 A-7 | D-7 G7 |" for the internal representation of a score and then modifying the strings anytime the user wants to transcribe to a different key. The software is converting it to a relative numeric index, I would guess, maybe A=0, or maybe using MIDI note numbers with C=60 (applying the root note number as same data as the chord name).
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:11 AM   #85
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Ah. Well, I don't think it's awful even after taking the time to learn it (it didn't take an awfully long time to learn it, either).
That is subjective opinion based on what comparison? Have you tried an alternative, anything other than that, or you are afraid to spend the same amount of time learning about that? Guess, I can ask you the same question (ignore, if you haven't learnt the staff notation language)

which one is this note?
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:12 AM   #86
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All this shows that you really have no clue about music.
do you have a master of music degree? if not... bye.

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Old 08-16-2019, 11:13 AM   #87
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You cannot remove context from notation like that.

It's like saying what word is this: "__a__". Clef and key signatures exist for this reason, just like alphabet exists for language.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:18 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
You cannot remove context from notation like that.

It's like saying what word is this: "__a__". Clef and key signatures exist for this reason, just like alphabet exists for language.
Would've been good point as a counter-argument, but... I didn't ask about a "word", I asked about a letter! a note.
Music word would've been a phrase, a simple interval maybe... even then it would be ambiguous anyway.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:26 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post
indicating voicing(position) on the guitar neck is not in any of the music books I have. none. you can argue that these are "not well written standard notation" but no online music sites indicate neck position either, and guitar scoring apps themselves don't use the feature.

and when the position is used, it conflicts with the letters used in other parts of the notation.

"V VII"

is that a fret position or is it a chord. oh, it's a fret position. the chords are just above that but using the same roman numerals V. oh, but they're a slightly different font.

these are mistakes from an archaic system due to lack of technology in typesetting. That is letting limitations from a font collection hamper your musical expression.
I've typically seen this in classical notation here in the US. Rock/metal/pop/country/blues/etc. transcriptions typically have standard notation and tab, and I haven't seen position indicated on these types of transcriptions, either. Probably slacking since the tab is present, though Id argue that the notation should still indicate position.



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And my previous comment is absolutely true:

"this brings up the point that there are already two competing versions of music notation already, with drastically different understandings, and players find it difficult to transition between the two. (classical player will get confused by jazz chart and vice versa)."

if you don't believe that jazz and classical conflict in this way, re-visit a performance school where classical players can be seen struggling if someone challenges them with a jazz chart which has different symbols for the same types of chords. Only the rarer musicians are familiar with both systems and can move between them. Go download a jazz app like iRealPro with a jazz chart and give it to a classical pianist to play, with all of it's bizarre-looking symbols compared to classical notation.


It seems there are a lot of difficult angles in the current broken system which typical musicians themselves are simply not aware of.
I agree that a classical player will have difficulty working with a jazz chart, I just don't believe that this issue stems from the notation itself, but rather expectations.

A classical player is trained to interpret the music written in standard notation, with his entire part written out for him from beginning to end. In contrast, a jazz player is trained to play the head, improvise for an hour, then play the head again. In this context, the only part written for the jazz player is the main melody (the head) and the basic chord progression. This framework is all that is needed for improvising. A classical player, however, rarely, if ever, improvises, and when they do so, it is only for a few bars here or there, not an extended improv in the sense of a jazz performance.

Due to those differences in training and background, it is not reasonable to expect a classical player to work from a jazz chart and produce an interesting performance; they simply have nothing in their background to prepare them for that.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:27 AM   #90
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Would've been good point as a counter-argument, but... I didn't ask about a "word", I asked about a letter! a note.
Music word would've been a phrase, a simple interval maybe... even then it would be ambiguous anyway.
In the language this discussion is conducted in, the sound that letter actually makes still depends on what's around it
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:29 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Lunar Ladder View Post
In the language this discussion is conducted in, the sound that letter actually makes still depends on what's around it
What sound? We are talking about writing system here, not sounds.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:30 AM   #92
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Care to explain why?
Key Gb, melody D flat, E double flat, D flat is easier to read for me than D flat, D natural, D flat.
Key F#, melody C sharp, C double sharp, E sharp is easier to read for me than C sharp, D natural, E sharp.

These things flow nicely for me, keeps me in the key base, less confusing, and is standard practice anyway so I'm used to it.
Apart from that, those little double tadpoles and X marks look nice to me!
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:30 AM   #93
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I'd hate to lose my double flats and double sharps..I'm being serious.
What you desire is a way to represent (or quickly read) an altered scale. That has nothing to do with the symbol double-sharp itself. In whatever system which exists, you need the ability to recognize that a note has been modified from the expected, or the way to recognize a particular set of notes (a scale) by seeing the altered note.

That is very different from insisting that you absolutely must have a symbol called double-sharp, or that it has to look a certain way ("x").

The symbol itself which is awkward to write and a historical relic. The original purpose of using a "b shaped character" and a "cross-hash shaped character" is still in question, including the use of two flat symbols ("bb") to indicate a double-flat while a double-sharp uses only one symbol ("x"). Two flat symbols are hard to squeeze into the same space where one symbol normally goes. And both symbols are difficult to write cleanly as superscript.

There are all kinds of things wrong with the current music system if taking a step back from looking at it like holy ground.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:31 AM   #94
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I'm not sure Diatonic is the best description for that. That was a particular scale, right. Diatonic means the "good named" notes are a subset of a particular scale. So it is best to name the scale at the start.

I think it would be best to think in terms of a typical jazz chart ("chord chart", which lists only chords above the single-line vocal melody, or maybe does not show melody at all, it only shows rhythmic slashes like "| / / |"). That chart is going to have a starting tonic. All the chords on the chart will follow that specification. If the key changes because of modulation...no problem, it's obvious, because the 0 chord suddenly becomes the 2 chord, then goes back to 0 chord again when original tonic is restored.


Is this any different from how a MIDI app would internally represent the music? There's no way that Band In A Box is using static strings "| E-7 A-7 | D-7 G7b9 | C6 A-7 | D-7 G7 |" for the internal representation of a score and then modifying the strings anytime the user wants to transcribe to a different key. The software is converting it to a relative numeric index, I would guess, maybe A=0, or maybe using MIDI note numbers with C=60 (applying the root note number as same data as the chord name).
Maybe I'm missing what you intend to say. The Major scale (a diatonic scale) was used as the simplest example of showing notes in a base-12 notation. Maybe you are saying to explicitly state a mode as a key, rather than saying that a piece of music is in 'C Major' or 'A minor' for example. And if a mode is stated as a key, are you saying that the root of the mode would be note '0'? I hope not.

Whether some chord symbol system is used or not, we still need to be able to direct;y notate pitches of chords within the line(s) of music. I might be missing what you are saying here, too. As has been discussed by others above, there is a place for chord charts and a place for precisely defining a chord voicing. But both are needed.

What I was getting at in my last post is whether pitches of chords within notated music should be relative to the key or relative to the root of the chord as in traditional music theory. Because if we use the traditional way with a 12-tone system, that certainly mucks things up. In other words, we can't say that a Major triad is 1-3-5 in a 12-tone system (relative to relative). But if we say 1-4-7, are we talking about in relation to the chord root or the music key root?
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:38 AM   #95
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What sound? We are talking about writing system here, not sounds.
My reply was a half-joking one , pointing out a funny aspect in your comment, but yep, in the same way letters form words and words can be read out loud as a grouping of particular phonemes, notes can be played or sung - and a writing system for music, used for writing down particular notes and intervals and harmonies etc. etc. is always in some way associated with how that script actually sounds when played.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:44 AM   #96
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do you have a master of music degree? if not... bye.
What a stupid thing to say!
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:54 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Lunar Ladder View Post
My reply was a half-joking one , pointing out a funny aspect in your comment...
I do not know to what 'funny aspect' you're referring it.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:57 AM   #98
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Key Gb, melody D flat, E double flat, D flat is easier to read for me than D flat, D natural, D flat.
Key F#, melody C sharp, C double sharp, E sharp is easier to read for me than C sharp, D natural, E sharp.

These things flow nicely for me, keeps me in the key base, less confusing, and is standard practice anyway so I'm used to it.
Apart from that, those little double tadpoles and X marks look nice to me!
Playing the instigator here: Would a 12-tone relative notation system not relieve you of all that sharp/flat/natural muck-a-ruck?
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:03 PM   #99
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Playing the instigator here: Would a 12-tone relative notation system not relieve you of all that sharp/flat/natural muck-a-ruck?
Not in a tonal system. They help you in knowing which key you are in..

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Old 08-16-2019, 12:05 PM   #100
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whether pitches of chords within notated music should be relative to the key or relative to the root of the chord as in traditional music theory. Because if we use the traditional way with a 12-tone system, that certainly mucks things up. In other words, we can't say that a Major triad is 1-3-5 in a 12-tone system (relative to relative). But if we say 1-4-7, are we talking about in relation to the chord root or the music key root?
It should be relative to the starting key. I avoid the word key and use the word tonic instead which is also misleading. Both the words 'key' and 'tonic' are overloaded and ambiguous. The perceived key might change thru temporary modulation but the notation should remain relative to the starting key. If the 'key signature' changes, that is not a temporary modulation, it is a new song section, and then the "starting key" resets so that the new relative key is indicated. At least that is my thought right now. But this may be skipping steps because this approach is a "top-down" description: taking a chart, and developing ideas which allow the chart to work.

What I originally suggested was that an ideal system would use the harmonic ratios of the tuning system as part of the notation. This would use a "bottom-up" method to design the theory to match physics, the physical world, the harmonics of notes. Here is ultimately what I am getting at: Bach wrote much of his music before any of the theory existed. Music theory, trying to reverse-engineer everything he wrote, the idea of substitute chords, temporary dominants, counterpoint, was described after his death. So how did Bach write so much material, all of which is considered "great" or even "genius"? He used the physical world, the harmonic relationships of notes- the purest form of understanding music- mathematical series. Why are there very few (or none) Bachs around writing the same quantity and quality of music? Perhaps it is because the system which is drilled into creative minds actually limits their creativity and blocks the understanding of the physical world- the real world of music, that of vibration- which is why there are still arguments in the classical world today about which tuning system is better, etc (an argument which few people even understand today, meanwhile, Bach was present at the turning point, the crystallization of the musical system now in place). No, I am not suggesting anyone change tuning systems, what we have today is what we have, although with MIDI instruments, I don't see why tuning couldn't be changed on the fly, or in synchronization with music, so that true tuning could be realized. No one even understands or writes music with "chord colors" today, which was actually an artistic intent, back in classical days, meaning that "key of C" would feel very different than "key of D". I'm suggesting the notation can be more revealing or at least less confusing. Anyway, in the harmonic world (another drastically overloaded term, "harmonic"), the importance of the ratios should not be dismissed.
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:14 PM   #101
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I do not know to what 'funny aspect' you're referring it.
Literally the one I wrote (pun intended, hah), but yeah senses of humor differ, so it might not seem that funny to someone else.

In any case, interesting viewpoints in this thread. The comparisons to programming languages and the presented history of their evolution are a bit off, academically speaking. Quite the rabbit hole and off topic to pursue that one too much, though.

What I'd like to see is the same thing brainwreck has urged: the more [actual in-use and practical, not just higher level meta pondering] examples there are, of the expressive and analytical qualities of some alternative system, the more convincingly it can be argued to be "better" than what is there already. As in, can it really express what it sets out to do?

For programming languages, there is no one single solution, and there's a multitude of co-existing languages, preferred in different contexts. In music, if there's one convention used for some type of music and another one for some other type of music, it's still surprisingly uniform in comparison.
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:30 PM   #102
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What I'd like to see is
you have two posted directly in this thread already. Tbon, and the Pashkuli.
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:38 PM   #103
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In any case, interesting viewpoints in this thread. The comparisons to programming languages and the presented history of their evolution are a bit off, academically speaking.
In music, if there's one convention used for some type of music and another one for some other type of music, it's still surprisingly uniform in comparison.
Ok, makes sense.
My work was based on critical thinking regarding how the (modern) "music language" came to be, based on historical resources (note names, intervals, temperament systems, clefs, etc.).
Same applies to the piano (from harpsichord, harp... lyre, in ancient times).

Both subjects I found to be quite interesting and the overall conclusion that resulted to my thoughts was, that they were developed by not so skillful people (not so creative, I must say). That might have been caused by many reasons like church indoctrination, state of the art (they had only wood, metal and leather, at their disposal... stones excluded obviously).
Because there are better solutions and... there were better solutions back in those days or shortly thereafter!
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:40 PM   #104
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I am not suggesting anyone change tuning systems, what we have today is what we have, although with MIDI instruments, I don't see why tuning couldn't be changed on the fly, or in synchronization with music, so that true tuning could be realized.
I know of a few people playing guitars they've had built with 19-TET or 22-TET tuning systems to attempt to get as close to just intonation as they can while still being able to play 12-TET material (particularly with the 19 TET guitars), and when I hear it, it sounds off. Not bad, but not what I'm accustomed to. I may adjust to it with more exposure, but this could be why it is not more common today - no one has enough exposure to it for it to sound correct.


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That is subjective opinion based on what comparison? Have you tried an alternative, anything other than that, or you are afraid to spend the same amount of time learning about that? Guess, I can ask you the same question (ignore, if you haven't learnt the staff notation language)

which one is this note?
It's a quarter note.

In order to name a pitch, we need more information, as it could be a C (bass clef), a B (alto clef), an A (treble clef), or one of several other notes depending upon which clef is indicated.
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:41 PM   #105
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I can't do full orchestral arrangements or tell other musicians what key to play in, but for my purposes, getting familiar with the sound of intervals was all I ever needed to get what's in my head into audio form.

Something as well established as what we currently use simply isn't going anywhere, so why bother? I came up with a system once where I just colored all the octaves on my keyboard differently and then would just write the letter and color on paper lined up with beats. That worked for a keyboardist joining my band, but probably pretty limited for some types of music. Of course this was pretty reliant on the music being pre-recorded, so it was more of a general map than precise instructions.

I prefer musicians that play by ear anyhow and know how to take advantage of happy mistakes rather than the schooled intellectual types who freak out if anyone drifts out of key.
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:44 PM   #106
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I know of a few people playing guitars they've had built with 19-TET or 22-TET tuning systems to attempt to get as close to just intonation .
Off topic, but I don't really like just intonation even in a single key tuned to it - I get that I may not be used to it but it's too smooth and the lively, chorusy motion that comes without provides the same thing we want when we very slightly de-tune two oscillators on a synth, which is very often a desirable sound compared to the more plain extra smooth sine wavy version.
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:55 PM   #107
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Would've been good point as a counter-argument, but... I didn't ask about a "word", I asked about a letter! a note.
Music word would've been a phrase, a simple interval maybe... even then it would be ambiguous anyway.
No, musical phrase is a whole sentence, not a word.
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:58 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by drtedtan
It's a quarter note.

In order to name a pitch, we need more information, as it could be a C (bass clef), a B (alto clef), an A (treble clef), or one of several other notes depending upon which clef is indicated.
Duration was not needed but thanks, it is correct.
I am glad that for the rest you also can see the problem with standard notation. And that is just the first issue with it...
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:59 PM   #109
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It's not an issue at all. Context is everything in notation. Just like in some actual real-world languages (i.e. Japanese). Suddenly clefs are a problem? No, not really. Do you know when to use "a" vs "an" in English? That's right, context. This is the same exact thing. Not a problem at all. Context is important, everywhere.
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:09 PM   #110
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Playing the instigator here: Would a 12-tone relative notation system not relieve you of all that sharp/flat/natural muck-a-ruck?
I don't know, as I haven't felt inspired yet to come to grips with it, and as I can't contribute in that way I'll probably move on. Good question though.
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:11 PM   #111
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No, musical phrase is a whole sentence, not a word.
Be it. (that was a sentence of two syllables = two intervals).
So, do you agree that you can't name a single note on the staff, without taking an overall look of the bar, the note is in and the whole staff (or at least its initial annotations)?

---

The jazz enthusiast Goldreap seem to have left the discussion or didn't see my other question, regarding the G7 chord and why it is called a Dominant chord?
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:13 PM   #112
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Ah. Well, I don't think it's awful even after taking the time to learn it (it didn't take an awfully long time to learn it, either).
what is "it" ? what can you play, what can you write, which parts of the huge body of "music theory" was learned such that it didn't take awfully long to learn?
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Old 08-16-2019, 02:51 PM   #113
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something concrete to discuss.
typical simple jazz chart (cropped excerpt!). typical music system typesetting problems, hard to read in spots due to number of characters needed to write out the chords (especially "sus"), subscripts are small, flat symbol hard to read, inversion notation is completely wonky. not at all a clean system. if written out by hand, it gets worse quickly: is that a F- or is it an F with a misplaced "-" mark afterwards; is it a triangle or is it a flat; "sus" can't be written in the space basically at all. yet, to repeat, this is a very basic jazz chart.





and as for my previous comment about there being "two systems, one for jazz and one for classical" it should be obvious that these are not classical notation chords, a classical pianist would say "huh?" if presented with a more complex jazz chart and likely not be able to sight read it, in comparison to being able to sight read classical which they are familiar with. jazz notation is different than classical notation in the current music system with just enough exceptions to make it annoying and hard to move from one to another, and 'everybody' knows it, it is obvious.
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Old 08-16-2019, 02:58 PM   #114
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The symbol itself which is awkward to write and a historical relic
what about all the symbols you just used to create that sentence?
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Old 08-16-2019, 03:02 PM   #115
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what about all the symbols you just used to create that sentence?
whatabout this topic makes you feel threatened?
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Old 08-16-2019, 03:03 PM   #116
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a classical pianist would say "huh?"
what makes you say that? all the classical pianists I know don't seem to have trouble reading such notation
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Old 08-16-2019, 03:14 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post
typical simple jazz chart (cropped excerpt!). typical music system typesetting problems, hard to read in spots due to number of characters needed to write out the chords (especially "sus"), subscripts are small, flat symbol hard to read, inversion notation is completely wonky. not at all a clean system. if written out by hand, it gets worse quickly: is that a F- or is it an F with a misplaced "-" mark afterwards; is it a triangle or is it a flat; "sus" can't be written in the space basically at all. yet, to repeat, this is a very basic jazz chart.
First of all, I would say there really isn't an inversion notation, rather than "inversion notation is completely wonky", guess it might seem wonky if you were expecting one

You are suggesting that if one is sloppy with penmanship the results are harder to read -- sure -- solution, have patience and take your art seriously




Quote:
Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post
and as for my previous comment about there being "two systems, one for jazz and one for classical" it should be obvious that these are not classical notation chords, a classical pianist would say "huh?" if presented with a more complex jazz chart and likely not be able to sight read it, in comparison to being able to sight read classical which they are familiar with. jazz notation is different than classical notation in the current music system with just enough exceptions to make it annoying and hard to move from one to another, and 'everybody' knows it, it is obvious.
Anyone with appropriate ears/chops/talent/training etc., moves easily between the two systems.

The reason there are 2 systems is clear -- classical notation attempts to state EXACTLY what is expected -- in jazz it's more a guideline -- it's more based on practicality -- the baritone male ain't doin' the gig tonight, there's a chick soprano comin' in. This means all the voicings you used last night are out the window, the melody is going to be an octave or more higher tonight -- adjust accordingly -- in classical if the baritone don't show, there is no show -- not a diss -- just a difference.

BTW, nice chart, I think I'd have no problem playing decent bass first time through on that one
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Old 08-16-2019, 03:47 PM   #118
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whatabout this topic makes you feel threatened?
the fact that you just combined two words into one... oh damn, that reminds me of whataburger, are you a fan?

just teasing you a bit to lighten the mood, I actually am interested in the topic. have you ever used C-sound or trackers? any opinion on those?
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Old 08-16-2019, 03:52 PM   #119
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also came across this... I have seen abbreviations like this before and have found them useful

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Old 08-16-2019, 03:59 PM   #120
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Music style is not the subject of this discussion.
Jazz, flamenco, mongolian gurgle... whatever.

What this thread is all about is (and it is written in its title):
music notation, music theory
(and nomenclature)

Jazz is nothing but a niche music style, as it is the case with death metal or micro-tonal music.

I believe I pointed out enough facts about the discrepancies in the so called modern (western?) music notation, nomenclature, hence - the theory as well following those elements.

So my theory is, backed up with proofs (see above), that this "system" is inconsistent to say the least.
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