keeping things from getting mushy?

[pixeltarian]

I know every tool and what it does. I know how to get rid of things I don't like on a track and add creative nice things that I do like. What I have trouble with is when I put it all together it sometimes sounds kind of a big mush of sounds. There's not usually enough definition and separation. Does anyone have any tips on getting things sounding more clear, but still have a lot of nice creative feel to it? (see my website in my sig for examples)

[RJHollins]

Hi Pix ...

There's been plenty of discussion regarding the issues you mention ...

Briefly ... and just a reminder.

Obviously the goal is to create a mix of sounds/instruments that deliver the proper attitude, and plays great on everyones sound system.

Achieving 'that' mix has been compared to everything from cooking to painting :|

Without have a notion as to how you are approaching a mix ... let jump to a 'typical' example. You solo up an instrument ... and you twist and tweak and efx until it sound fantastic ! ... then on to the next ... again, 'you' tweak, bent, and shaped into a killer sound.

This is fantastic ... who said this was hard ...

So now you have the ultimate in kick drum sounds ... none have ever been better.

As long as this is a 'Solo Kick Drum' composition .... your work is done here ... time to begin drafting your Grammy acceptance speech.

Ahhh ... but now you've found that another instrument track is on this same project ... no problem, because THAT instrument was also tweaked into greatness ... wait ... there are more instruments to bring in ... each one glorious ....

........... until they all try to play in the same 'sandbox' ... now the pushing and shoving have begun ... each instrument fighting each other.

chaos at best ... frustration/disappointment.

The Laws of Physics state that '... no two objects can occupy a given space at the same time'. [I'm paraphrasing].

We also have a concept called 'Vectors'.... two forces pushing against each other will diminish their movement, while 2 objects pushing in the same direction can double the movement'. [again, terrible paraphrase at best].

The mix 'sound-field' is not boundless. It is a contained, and hopefully a controlled canvas that everything must fit on. It also encompasses a much reduced dynamic range compared to the outside world.

Getting a great mix also relies on WHAT is being mix together. For the sake of sanity, lets assume that the perform, orchestration, and arranging are flawless in delivery the pure essence of a song. All these instruments/sound sources must now be prioritize, shaped, positioned, and balanced to fit the restrictions of the recorded medium.

No single instrument is NOT affected by the other sounds ... they each have impact/influence on each other.

Without boring everyone [more] ... it is vital to study/learn how these interaction work. To help 'simplify' the blending/balance/mixing process ... it can be very useful to focus working through a single, mono, monitor such as the Auratone. There is a reason they sit in every major studio around the globe for more years than I can recall.

At first, the thought of working on them is 'WHY ... I have these great big monitors that shake the room and are glorious'. Well, that may be true ... however, they can also deceive Big may be better ... but it's the small things that count ... alright ... sorry about that ... it seemed appropriate at the time :|

A typical work strategy [at least the way I've worked for decades] ... A rough balance may be quickly thrown up into the main house monitors just to get an initial sense. Soon ... we shift to the Auratone, where most likely 90% of the work will be done. [WITH a pre-meditated concept of what the mix will already sound like in the minds ear !!!].

Yes ... there are indeed times to fly a track up to the mains to 'check' the top or bottom ... but the essentials take place in a single, mono speaker.

Next, after a break, I'll move to a second reference monitor [such as NS10's].

The 'process' is NOT as ridged as it might seem at first read. The MAIN point is that an understanding of WHY you work on a particular monitor system.

This may be the 'first' in the concept. There is plenty more to study and learn when it comes to shaping individual tracks.

Hopefully others will share their insights.

Hope some of this was useful.

[Nip]

Originally Posted by pixeltarian

I know how to get rid of things I don't like on a track and add creative nice things that I do like.

If refrasing that to "I know how to get rid of things that are not needed." - maybe.

Or let something fade out - when other things are added.

Or save some for another song.

And carefully select that what you add have frequency content that don't overlap existing stuff too much - or use a HP filter on some you add, not to overlap.

I'm struggling with this all the time - letting an instrument that plays at start play all the way through. I really must let go.

Kill your darlings - kind of. Just let there be short highlites in the song. I know a lot of music that can be pretty much transport in between highlites - but the highlites makes all the difference and you are just waiting for them to arrive.

[Sexan]

I've listened to some of your songs.
The first problem is there is too much low end on everything on some songs.
Second problem is they are low mid heavy (some songs)
And third your reverbs cloud elements .

Low mid (specific 300-600hz area) & low end is the problem with muddy mixes
You got to be very careful with that area,cutting will make elements small and lifeless and boosting can get things muddy and boxy

Cut low end on every track (acoustic guitar doesn't need anything below 100hz and needs some fixing on resonating notes around 100hz-200hz)

Vocals cut everything below 100-150hz you can boost 150hz if you wanna more fuller rounder sound but be careful not to overdo it.And EQ into compression (you can do more high boosting an it will still sound smooth,but be careful with boosting 100-200hz or it will pump the compressor).High shelf boost from 3k for more intelligibility and some 12k for some air .And here is a little gem what makes things sound wider:
JS-Pseudostereo is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!
Put it on vox track and set the HASS - Comb 40-60 (don't go over 60 or it will start to modulate and fuck up the phase AND sound obvious)
It doesn't sound good on everything (distorted material) but on vocal its godly!

Filter the reverb ,cut everything below 150-250hz and cut some of the high end it will sound more natural),EQ the mids to sit better in the mix
Use some room reverbs to get the "space" for some instruments (Bricasti M7),using only algorithmic reverbs will sound get your mix sound "cheap" if not using right.
Btw try Freeverb 3 PROG reverb,its goddamn GOOD reverb!!!!!!!!!

And most important part,don't eq elements in solo.For example when you HP vocals around 150hz when soloed, it will sound thin,but in the mix it will sound just right.You won't hear that extra low end that in solo sounds fuller,but it will mess up your mix.
Listen some songs you like to see how much low-mid-treble elements have as a reference

[Cosmic]

Theres been absolute gold posted already in this thread which I for one appreciate greatly.Thanks guys.

The BIG thing I've come to learn is that arrangement is almost everything.
You just cant play like you would if you were jamming with the lads..every single note must have a purpose and it must always compliment what else is going on.And,in reality,this often means simplifying things..the space is equally important than whats actually played.Thats where your dynamics come from.Right down to the little bits in between guitar strums.Gotta ALL be defined...its vital.

[Jorgen]

Originally Posted by Cosmic

The BIG thing I've come to learn is that arrangement is almost everything.
You just cant play like you would if you were jamming with the lads..every single note must have a purpose and it must always compliment what else is going on.And,in reality,this often means simplifying things..the space is equally important than whats actually played.Thats where your dynamics come from.Right down to the little bits in between guitar strums.Gotta ALL be defined...its vital.

Yes yes yes.

[Sexan]

Originally Posted by Cosmic

The BIG thing I've come to learn is that arrangement is almost everything.
You just cant play like you would if you were jamming with the lads..every single note must have a purpose and it must always compliment what else is going on.And,in reality,this often means simplifying things..the space is equally important than whats actually played.Thats where your dynamics come from.Right down to the little bits in between guitar strums.Gotta ALL be defined...its vital.

Yes yes yes yes!

[Artbay]

all of the above, plus brutal eq cuts

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by Artbay

all of the above, plus brutal eq cuts

You have to be CAREFULLLLL with them bad boys though..or you've got nothing but a slice of wafer coming at ye

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Cosmic

You have to be CAREFULLLLL with them bad boys though..or you've got nothing but a slice of wafer coming at ye

Agreed, anytime I find myself cutting (or boosting) more than just a few db here and there I get really nervous as to how well I captured the source. I'm a one man band like you so I have the liberty to go back and work on the source.

I also agree on that us all-in-wonder guys have to totally submit to the song and be willing to toss any part composed no matter how much we like it. If I can mute it and the tune doesn't fall apart then it must go. Doing so while simplifying so that every part "needs" every other part causes the tune to mix itself. Its usually that simple silly part you avoided putting in while removing something you were proud of' but when you do and it works, its like giving birth, a song appears out of nowhere and mixing is easy after that point.

[Cosmic]

Yeah..it can be a royal pain in the nuts sometimes..you've got something HAMAZING that rocks your world and you mute it and everything sounds better.

You can eat up mad hours trying to get it to work first though.

[BenK-msx]

I used to love the challenge of big lush mixes with sounds everywhere, proves how good you are right? Less sounds is Too easy, but alas not true, or at least necessary.

As mentioned earlier arrangement is key imo so one can drop stuff out, bring something in, make room that way.

To use a weird analogy,If you can't fit into your clothes - new clothes, different colours or styles or fabrics don't really fix the problem, it's losing the extra pounds... so in sound terms less stuff going off at once.


This is one of those everyone has an opinion threads so will be tricky to boil it down, but so far like what I read.

[Artbay]

Originally Posted by Cosmic

You have to be CAREFULLLLL with them bad boys though..or you've got nothing but a slice of wafer coming at ye

yeah, "brutal" may be an overstatement...

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Agreed, anytime I find myself cutting (or boosting) more than just a few db here and there I get really nervous as to how well I captured the source.

i bet it depends on the style too - subtle acoustics shouldn't be cut as harsh as metal, industrial, etc.

[reapercurious]

most of the time, its the song composition and arrangement at the root of most mixing problems. also, if the song is good it usually doesnt matter if its a bad mix. what makes a good song, i don't know.

dynamics and expression in your performance velocity, mic control or technique/placement for vocals,

fader automation in the sequencer to cause the song to build and recede in intensity as called for.

some parts should play together, others should syncopate

mix with headroom (turn everything down)

when things get too mushy, maybe its time to go back and look for the bones of the structure. maybe then find where phat turned obese.

[EpicSounds]

Maybe have someone else mix?

I could mix one of your tracks and show you what I did.

[Panic]

Originally Posted by Cosmic

You have to be CAREFULLLLL with them bad boys though..or you've got nothing but a slice of wafer coming at ye

[Panic]

agree with the arrangement advice. I suck at mixing anyway, so I usually find that less is more and it's always an interesting challenge trying to get the feel I want with the least amount of sonic complication.

[Cosmic]

Telling you..get a good arrangement and record the parts as close to the way they're gonna sound in the mix.Song will mix itself pretty much.

[Jorgen]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

... simplifying so that every part "needs" every other part causes the tune to mix itself.

Yes, well put, it makes sense. Now if I could only live as I learn...

[Jorgen]

Originally Posted by reapercurious

dynamics and expression in your performance velocity, mic control or technique/placement for vocals

Absolutely. You make music?

[Jorgen]

Jeffrey, have you considered working with a producer? A good, slick one... Your music is strong and simple, I can easily hear it with some more hi-fi... invite the mainstream audience more, if you don't mind me saying so.

Btw, ambientinstrumental is really cool.

[msore]

Sometimes I try to improve the messes I make by
considering open empty space (silence) as an instrument
and giving it a piece of the aural pie
or as Cosmic put is, a part in the arrangement.

[Bristol Posse]

Arrangement: already covered but, try and use the instruments in a way that they don't step on one another. so for a very simplified example if you have a guitar and a bass playing together, try and use chord voicing on the guitar that do not use any low notes or at least play them further up the neck so that the guitar and bass are not playing the same thing in the same register.

Recording: try and set up the sounds you actually want to hear in the mix at the time you record. If you know you don't want a lot of low end in the guitar then set up your amp that way. then set up your mic so that the proximity effect will not then come in and beef up the low end all over again

Mixing: have a clear idea of what is the most important thing. If the bass is actually carrying the song forward in the middle eight, it needs to be highlighted. if you have other instruments going on, make sure they are not outshining the bass. you shouldn't need tons of EQ and processing to get a fairly stable mix of the recorded sounds.

Reverb: I personally hate stereo reverbs, they eat up all the space in the mix. remember that you can EQ reverb so that it is not adding tons of Low end to the song or that it is not taking the clarity away from the actual thing it is reverberating from. Personally, I like to find a nice mono reverb and tuck it away in a spot in the stereo spread and EQ it fairly thin just to give a hint of reverb

Just because you recorded something, doesn't mean you have to use it. pick what makes the song shine.

there's lots more but start thinking about the final vision from the very start, rather than just tossing everything in and trying to figure it out later without a clear plan of what you actually want to achieve

[pixeltarian]

Originally Posted by Jorgen

Jeffrey, have you considered working with a producer? A good, slick one... Your music is strong and simple, I can easily hear it with some more hi-fi... invite the mainstream audience more, if you don't mind me saying so.

Btw, ambientinstrumental is really cool.

Thanks. I've considered it but finding a 'good slick one' is easier said than done.

[pixeltarian]

reading through this thread...

The only thing I don't quite understand (yet) is how a lot of folks lean in the direction of taking things out.

I am trying to LPF every track from here on out and HPF the ones that are good candidates.

I appreciate all the pointers. I can say that I have, in the past, attempted an ok amount of things I'm reading here, but then I feel like the song has less feel. It sounds kind of lifeless and dull. I'm sure I'm just failing on execution. I hope to track something new soon. Maybe I'll do a little diary thread and see if we can't end up with a better mix than my previous body of work.

I would be really interested to hear specific examples in my work that fit the issues you guys are identifying. I know it's a lot to ask, but it would be SUPER helpful to see a specific example like "in X track you should just take out Y" or some more details on what you mean by arrangement besides instrumentation/quantity of simultaneous parts.

[Cosmic]

Hey man..I just listened to Our Most Precious Things..and I must say..it is AWESOME.You are brilliant.No question of that.

Now,mix considerations aside...if I was you..I would totally simplify the backing when the singing starts.Theres too much going on and it totally distracts .You need to let the rhythm guitar take control and be way more sparing with the accompinying noodling.Either that or arrange the noodling into a definite solid definable melodic/harmonic structure.In such a way as to leave room for the important stuff.Your excellent voice and lyrics.Its too confusing for my ears as it stands.The music should be propping up the voice..not competing for attention.

In regards the mix..IMHO you need to get more radical with the panning.Again,to make room for the vocals,which are outstanding.Your voice should come NUMERO UNO!Thats what the listener wants..well its what I want,and I'm a listener.

Also...the EQ I think isnt that far off the mark...theres still low can come off though and a bit more treble added.Mostly I think you could get a bit more heavy handed with the compressors..and use the fader to control the dynamic.Its a bit wishy washy,drifting in and out.Get it solid.

At 0.18..pull the fancy stuff out..and then reintroduce it gradually.Theres loads of room to bring it back.

This is just my intial thoughts on this one track.But,I'll say this..your voice is brilliant and the lyrics are inspired as is the melody.Highly original and very agreeable.I look forward to hearing this sound develop.

You Rock.

Edit..jeepers..that tune is fuckimg amazing..I need to hear the rest of it

[pixeltarian]

Originally Posted by Cosmic

Hey man..I just listened to Our Most Precious Things..and I must say..it is AWESOME.You are brilliant.No question of that.

Now,mix considerations aside...if I was you..I would totally simplify the backing when the singing starts.Theres too much going on and it totally distracts .You need to let the rhythm guitar take control and be way more sparing with the accompinying noodling.Either that or arrange the noodling into a definite solid definable melodic/harmonic structure.In such a way as to leave room for the important stuff.Your excellent voice and lyrics.Its too confusing for my ears as it stands.The music should be propping up the voice..not competing for attention.

In regards the mix..IMHO you need to get more radical with the panning.Again,to make room for the vocals,which are outstanding.Your voice should come NUMERO UNO!Thats what the listener wants..well its what I want,and I'm a listener.

Also...the EQ I think isnt that far off the mark...theres still low can come off though and a bit more treble added.Mostly I think you could get a bit more heavy handed with the compressors..and use the fader to control the dynamic.Its a bit wishy washy,drifting in and out.Get it solid.

At 0.18..pull the fancy stuff out..and then reintroduce it gradually.Theres loads of room to bring it back.

This is just my intial thoughts on this one track.But,I'll say this..your voice is brilliant and the lyrics are inspired as is the melody.Highly original and very agreeable.I look forward to hearing this sound develop.

You Rock.

Edit..jeepers..that tune is fuckimg amazing..I need to hear the rest of it

hahahaha!!!! This is so good. no critique has been as perfect ever! Here's why:

I should've mentioned it but I forgot that people might look at that page instead of the "listen listen" page. That particular track is actually just the input from a loop I made on my boss RC-20 with vocals added afterwords in reaper. So it it is a mono signal and has no ability to take parts in and out. You can bet your buttons that when I track those parts out for real that I'll be doing some panning and I think I'll take the noodling out most of the time when the vocals are happening. I will definitely read what you wrote again when I track it out. I 100% agree with all of it. the only thing I fear is that it won't sound as good when I track it. That happens to me sometimes and I can't seem to capture a vibe that something had when I first made it on the looper. same parts, same tempo... but missing something. hopefully this time will be different and I'll get it down good.