v5.95pre16 - August 31 2018

[Edgemeal]

v5.95pre16 - August 31 2018
+ Copy: improve automation copy/paste behavior with multiple items [p=2026564]
+ Copy: include automation between selected items when gap is fully within time selection
+ Item drag: move include automation between items when gap is fully within time selection


Full changelog - Latest pre-releases

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by Edgemeal

v5.95pre16 - August 31 2018
+ Copy: improve automation copy/paste behavior with multiple items [p=2026564]

"Copy selected area of items" seems to work fine, but "Cut" still gives problems at the edges:

(Showing the result of "Cut selected area of items", pasted to the right)



At present, "Copy selected area", "Cut selected area", "Duplicate selected area" and "Ctrl+drag" (with "Ignoring time selection" NOT selected) all work differently with regard to time selection, item boundaries and AIs. For example, a comparison between Ctrl+drag and "Copy":




Personally, I prefer the way that "Copy" works, since plain automation and AIs are all trimmed to the time selection. (Although, I think it should also copy selected AIs, even if "Envelope points move with media items" is disabled.)

[juliansader]

A few examples of bugs/inconsistencies:

Before:



After Duplicate selected area: Non-AI automation within time selection outside item boundaries are not pasted:



After Crtl+dragging: If the pan AI *outside* the time selection is selected, it gets dragged along; but non-AI automation within time selection but outside items boundaries are not:



After Copy selected area of items: pre-existing AI in paste position (in Pan lane) isn't overwritten by pasted automation:

[RobinGShore]

The time selection stuff helps with the problems I posted in the pre15 thread, but I still think that moving and copying via mouse drag should effect all automation in the time selection on the selected tracks whether or not it is sandwiched between two items (i.e automation that is before or after all the selected items, or is on tracks that don't have any items within the time selection)

[Justin]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

The time selection stuff helps with the problems I posted in the pre15 thread, but I still think that moving and copying via mouse drag should effect all automation in the time selection on the selected tracks whether or not it is sandwiched between two items (i.e automation that is before or after all the selected items, or is on tracks that don't have any items within the time selection)

That would make an interesting option, but I think it would break things for a lot of people who leave time selection and loop selection linked -- e.g. they set up a loop selection, decide they want to go edit one item's position, and boom all of the automation gets moved...

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by Justin

That would make an interesting option, but I think it would break things for a lot of people who leave time selection and loop selection linked -- e.g. they set up a loop selection, decide they want to go edit one item's position, and boom all of the automation gets moved...

That makes sense, I'm sure I'd be one of the people who would run into that at some point actually. Again, I think this all makes a strong case for implementing the Area Selection request as separate method of copying and moving. At the very least though it would be nice if the copy selected area and smart copy actions could pick up automation on tracks that don't have items within the time selection.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

I think this all makes a strong case for implementing the Area Selection request as separate method of copying and moving.

coff coff Area selection is much more then for copy pasting ... specially if in Reaper. Sorry disturbing.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

The time selection stuff helps with the problems I posted in the pre15 thread, but I still think that moving and copying via mouse drag should effect all automation in the time selection on the selected tracks whether or not it is sandwiched between two items (i.e automation that is before or after all the selected items, or is on tracks that don't have any items within the time selection)

If I understand correctly, the "Copy/Cut/Duplicate selected area of items" actions and the Ctrl+leftdrag mouse modifier "Copy item, NOT ignoring time selection" provide exactly this functionality. [EDIT: I meant, *should* provide exactly this functionality, but are buggy at the moment.]

AIs also promise to (eventually) make it much easier to select exactly what automation is copied or moved along with MIs, but some FRs will need to be implemented:
* Selected AIs always move with selected MIs.
* Swipe-draw new automation items work across multiple lanes. [p=1898983]
* Inserting or swipe-drawing new AIs over plain, non-AI envelopes should not delete the underlying points. [p=1925085]
* New AIs should be selected, and inserting new AIs should not deselect all other AIs. [p=1903794]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

all automation in the time selection on the selected tracks

REAPER's actions work on selected items, not selected tracks. However, given that the devs are currently working on duplication actions, perhaps they could consider adding actions for copying or duplicating "selected area of TRACKS", which will duplicate all items and all automation in the selected tracks, even if there are no items within the time selection?

I wrote some scripts to accomplish this a year ago, but unfortunately neither of the two users that are so vocal about "Area Selection" are eager to use scripts:

* Area selection - Duplicate items and automation in time selection of selected tracks to edit cursor

* Area selection - Duplicate items and automation in time selection of selected tracks to edit cursor (excluding hidden track envelopes)

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by juliansader

If I understand correctly, the "Copy/Cut/Duplicate selected area of items" actions and the Ctrl+leftdrag mouse modifier "Copy item, NOT ignoring time selection" provide exactly this functionality.

AIs also promise to (eventually) make it much easier to select exactly what automation is copied or moved along with MIs, but some FRs will need to be implemented:
* Selected AIs always move with selected MIs.
* Swipe-draw new automation items work across multiple lanes. [p=1898983]
* Inserting or swipe-drawing new AIs over plain, non-AI envelopes should not delete the underlying points. [p=1925085]
* New AIs should be selected, and inserting new AIs should not deselect all other AIs. [p=1903794]




REAPER's actions work on selected items, not selected tracks. However, given that the devs are currently working on duplication actions, perhaps they could consider adding actions for copying or duplicating "selected area of TRACKS", which will duplicate all items and all automation in the selected tracks, even if there are no items within the time selection?

I wrote some scripts to accomplish this a year ago, but unfortunately neither of the two users that are so vocal about "Area Selection" are eager to use scripts:

* Area selection - Duplicate items and automation in time selection of selected tracks to edit cursor

* Area selection - Duplicate items and automation in time selection of selected tracks to edit cursor (excluding hidden track envelopes)

Hi Julian, your efforts are appreciated by all - but Area Selection needs to exist natively. The number of corner cases with automation and AI is crazy - edgepoint issues, itemless automation areas, partial items/AI, it's futile to try and fix at the item level when Area Selection could so cleanly take care of all these complex problems. Just select an area of stuff, and that stuff gets duplicated exactly.

I'm regularly embarrassed in front of clients when traversing the landmine of duplication in Reaper, especially given that it's so ahead of the game in almost every other way but Copy and Paste lol.

[ferropop]

It goes beyond just getting the functionality of Area Selection -- it has to do with the tactile and visual cues of drawing a box around stuff and duplicating it somewhere else. It's so cumbersome selecting time, then the specific tracks, then literally using your finger on the screen to trace the path to the new location (to prevent pasting on one track too high/low!) because there's no visual cues and we've had to take our eyes off the items 3 separate times just to copy/paste! Throw Automation Items into this mess, and hoo boy.

Draw a box around stuff, copy and paste the box. Not a thing in Reaper 2018.

[Jack Winter]

Originally Posted by ferropop

It's so cumbersome selecting time, then the specific tracks, then literally using your finger on the screen to trace the path to the new location (to prevent pasting on one track too high/low!)

I often lock vertical movement for just that reason, though I suspect that AS would do exactly the same thing. Maybe drag media items could benefit from a modifier key to restrict it to either H or V movement.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by juliansader

If I understand correctly, the "Copy/Cut/Duplicate selected area of items" actions and the Ctrl+leftdrag mouse modifier "Copy item, NOT ignoring time selection" provide exactly this functionality.

I meant, "*should* provide exactly this functionality, but are a bit buggy at the moment".

Originally Posted by Justin

That would make an interesting option, but I think it would break things for a lot of people who leave time selection and loop selection linked -- e.g. they set up a loop selection, decide they want to go edit one item's position, and boom all of the automation gets moved...

The default leftdrag mouse mouse modifier, "Move item", already has an option to either ignore the time selection or not. (By default, it is set to "Move item, ignoring time selection".) Users can therefore explicitly choose whether to use the time selection or not, and link the different options to different modifier keys. I suggest that:
* If "Ignoring time selection" is ENabled, use old behavior (except that selected AIs should move along).
* If "Ignoring time selection" is DISabled (and if the mouse-drag movement starts within the time selection) all automation within the time selection, whether to the left, right, or in-between of selected items move along.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by juliansader

If I understand correctly, the "Copy/Cut/Duplicate selected area of items" actions and the Ctrl+leftdrag mouse modifier "Copy item, NOT ignoring time selection" provide exactly this functionality.

"Copy/Cut/Duplicate selected area of items" does pick up automation before or after the selected items, the drag copy modifier does not. No method of copying currently picks up automation on tracks that don't have any items. I understand Justin's reasoning for not wanting to include all automation in the time selection when doing a normal drag to move, but I do think that copying via drag should mimic the Copy/Cut/Duplicate selected area of items" actions.

AIs also promise to (eventually) make it much easier to select exactly what automation is copied or moved along with MIs,

AIs are neat, but I've found them to not be very useful when dealing with more than just a few envelopes at a time, and not useful at all if you don't have your envelopes visible and displayed in seperate lanes. I often have 50+ active envelopes on a track, most of which I always keep hidden and I never display any of them in their own lanes. I haven't been able to find a way to make AIs work well in this type of workflow.

REAPER's actions work on selected items, not selected tracks. However, given that the devs are currently working on duplication actions, perhaps they could consider adding actions for copying or duplicating "selected area of TRACKS", which will duplicate all items and all automation in the selected tracks, even if there are no items within the time selection?

+1 I understand how Reaper's current actions work, but I was suggesting a new behavior that seems to go along with the changes they're working on now.

I wrote some scripts to accomplish this a year ago, but unfortunately neither of the two users that are so vocal about "Area Selection" are eager to use scripts:

I may not be that vocal about it on here, but I am also someone who would really really like to see the Area Selection request happen. It's not that I'm opposed to using scripts (I use tons of scripts), it's about not wanting to use a separate action for something that feels like it should be part of the standard copy/paste functions. Your scripts are really useful, but they're not a total fulfillment of the request. Personally I'd much prefer separate actions for copy and past as opposed to the single click duplication method your script uses, as I find it nice to be able to store things in the paste buffer, and as far as I can tell your scripts don't allow for pasting from one track (or set of tracks) to another (I know we can use empty items for this, but that I always feels really clunky when I actually do it, and I always run in to corner cases that break things).

Your scripts also miss what I consider a cornerstone of the request: A single visual bounding box so we can tell at a glance what's selected and what isn't. Currently we only have separate indicators for time, track, and item selection. This can make it really confusing to tell what your actually editing. I've been using Reaper for over 10 years and I still get tripped up by this a lot. I know the visual thing probably seems trivial to some, but it would really help speed things up for people who do a lot of editing.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

"
Your scripts also miss what I consider a cornerstone of the request: A single visual bounding box so we can tell at a glance what's selected and what isn't. Currently we only have separate indicators for time, track, and item selection. This can make it really confusing to tell what your actually editing. I've been using Reaper for over 10 years and I still get tripped up by this a lot. I know the visual thing probably seems trivial to some, but it would really help speed things up for people who do a lot of editing.

This is everything.

Also the concept of dragging a box makes workflow so clean because you're interacting with the media itself instead of this weird time selection distraction that takes your eyes directly away from what you should be looking at!!! -- are you selecting the items, the automation items, or both? Just drag a box around the one(s) you want. Copy that area, delete it, you are never left wondering "did I accidentally select the Automation Items too? Did I miss an automation point?". You have completely clear borders, your selection is shown DIRECTLY on the material you're interacting with.

[ferropop]

[deeb]

This is so obvious! but there is so much cement being applied to make some kind of logic on this lame item based copy paste that i am expecting the worse.


Unfortunately no "Keep it simple" principle for copy paste in reaper. And they still digging! The ridiculous is that even simpler approach would have faster flexible and accurate results. But they continue digging the hole.