Bug in DDP Rendering

pustekuchen · 02-24-2020, 06:39 AM

Hello Reaper team,

first I'd like to say I am using Reaper for several years now and it is a really well done and thought through tool. You people do a brilliant job! Thank you for doing such great work!

I am writing here because I think the DDP rendering might have a bug concerning writing the correct Metadata / CD Text.

I already rendered several DDPs using Reaper which resulted in successful CD Productions.
So audiowise everything is fine but some of the metadata is not rendered into the DDP although entered correctly in the markers of the project. For example "Titel" and "Performer" are written but "Composer" and "Arranger" are not.

Is there a chance somebody might look into that?

Thank you and best regards
p

NB: If this is the wrong place for reporting something like this then please tell me. I am sorry if this should be the case.

akademie · 02-24-2020, 08:02 AM

Hello pastekuchen,
I was using "Composer" metadata info in DDP few years ago when releasing album CD/LP and everything was OK. I multiple-checked DDP set with lots of other tools (free and commercial) and everything was accurate, including Creator metadata.

So, something had to happen in v5-6 cycle or you are making some not-obvious "mistake".

Can you make and share very small DDP set and upload, so we can check it?

pustekuchen · 02-24-2020, 09:24 AM

Hello akademie,

thank you for your answer!

I made a small DDP (not so easy to make one under 1.5 MB

It contains 2 tracks. There should be "title", "performer", "composer", "arranger" and "ISRC" for both tracks, also "various" as album performer, album title, genre and EAN.

Thank you for looking into it!

best
p

kapverden · 02-24-2020, 10:09 AM

Hi Pustekuchen

i did not look into your example file, but try putting "various composers" and "various arrangers" into the corresponding album marker (@) fields.

Then also the entered meta data in the track markers (#) should be written.

Best
Kapverden

akademie · 02-24-2020, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pustekuchen

Hello akademie,

thank you for your answer!

I made a small DDP (not so easy to make one under 1.5 MB

It contains 2 tracks. There should be "title", "performer", "composer", "arranger" and "ISRC" for both tracks, also "various" as album performer, album title, genre and EAN.

Thank you for looking into it!

best
p

I got it, but I accidentally found a serious bug in Reaper v5.9x and 6.x DDP import while checking you DDP set. I created a Bug report for that.

I will look later deeper, because while opening you DDP in Sonoris and HOFA etc. there does not seem to be included Composer, Arranger etc.
Please give me some time, maybe tomorrow I will make some test myself with version 4 or early 5, I have to go home to spend some evening time with my family now

EDIT:
Well, I could not resist and made some DDP exports from Reaper v5.79 and I can confirm that even though I included SONGWRITER, COMPOSER, ARRANGER to track markers or album markers, they did not get into DDP image

So, later I will try with Reaper version 4.x I was using when creating those DDPs for our album, to verify if something has been done to invalidate DDP export in newer Reaper versions or if it is status quo, but I am pretty sure that songwriter or composer was included when preparing album (at least for various tests). We will see.

akademie · 02-24-2020, 03:13 PM

pustekuchen, here it is, I did know that my memory is not so bad..

https://stash.reaper.fm/38359/DDP-mo...aper_v4402.jpg

Here, that is our album, completely made in Reaper, including, DDP premastering and exporting DDP set for factory duplication.

For songs there are only ISRC, Title and Performer (Artist) metadata used.
For whole album there are Album, Performer, Songwriter, Composer, Message, Genre, Language metadata fields used.

See, how Songwriter, Composer and Message are all correctly displayed when opened in "HOFA CD-Burn & DDP" application.

I will try to create a DDP with track Composer etc. in my old Reaper v4.402 and let you know.
(Also worth of checking to use album Composer, Message metadata in latest version (6.x) of Reaper to cross-check where {if !) something went wrong).

WyattRice · 02-24-2020, 06:49 PM

Hi.
I will look into this too.
Seems like if I remember correctly, I had to render the Reaper DPP using a time selection, and making sure the @album marker is in the time selection, tho I could be wrong.
Will investigate when I get time.
Thanks,
Wyatt

akademie · 02-24-2020, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kapverden

Hi Pustekuchen

i did not look into your example file, but try putting "various composers" and "various arrangers" into the corresponding album marker (@) fields.

Then also the entered meta data in the track markers (#) should be written.

Best
Kapverden

OOOhh, after many various tests I confirm that corresponding fields have to be filled in both, track markers and album marker.
So if you need various songwriters, composers, arrangers, messages for tracks, then you have to include those fields in @ marker for album (as various, diverse or anything).

I am not sure that it is correct, I will try it also in Sonoris DDP and HOFA DDP.

Anyway, it is working, if you stick with this rule!

ADDITION:
I uploaded you back new edited project.
Project is not set to 75frames etc. and also does not contain any audiofile. It is just to show you how are markers written and you can render the DDP yourself to try it (note that you select Time selection when rendering - time selection is set for this example, anyway it has to be longer than where final album marker @ is positioned).

Here is the DDPset and Reaper project (70kB):
https://stash.reaper.fm/38365/DDP_te...m_all_tags.zip

That DDPset opened in HOFA...

https://stash.reaper.fm/38364/test_ddp_create_v60.jpg

pustekuchen · 02-25-2020, 04:13 AM

Hello akademie, thank you very much for taking so much time for looking into this and proofing that it now works correctly with all the possible meta tags!

And thank you kapverden for this really enlightening hint! I can confirm that this is actually the solution. When any tag is used only in (#) track markers and not in the (@) album marker too, then Reaper ignores the track-tags when rendering the DDP.

As I remember HOFA is able to write DDPs with tags in tracks only without the corresponding album tags (for example different composers and also arrangers only in some tracks without "Album composer=various" and "Album arranger=various" etc).
akademie can you confirm that? How is Sonoris handling this? If only Reaper has this issue then it possibly might be worth to report a bug, what do you think?

Concerning the time-selection I think it is not necessary. If the @-Marker is set somewhere inside the audio portion (for example near the end of the last track) then the DDP is rendered correctly. If it is set after the audio then without a time selection it would be ignored. (in your example project there is no audio so it would be needed...)

Thank you everybody for your help!

best
p

akademie · 02-25-2020, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pustekuchen

...
As I remember HOFA is able to write DDPs with tags in tracks only without the corresponding album tags (for example different composers and also arrangers only in some tracks without "Album composer=various" and "Album arranger=various" etc).
akademie can you confirm that? How is Sonoris handling this? If only Reaper has this issue then it possibly might be worth to report a bug, what do you think?..

Yes, I definitely confirm this. I even wanted to write it into previous post, but somehow forgot then when attaching file and screenshot.

So, YES, HOFA and Sonoris do not require filled album tags for Songwriter, Composer, Arranger, Mesasage when used in tracks.

akademie · 02-25-2020, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pustekuchen

...
Concerning the time-selection I think it is not necessary. ...

I think that it was kind of a bug long time ago and time selection was workaround, but nicely working.

The selection had to be 1 frame or sample? longer than last marker or something like that. I could find a topic and posts about that, not really sure if it was managed in later versions as I always stuck with this workflow to be safe

akademie · 02-25-2020, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pustekuchen

...
As I remember HOFA is able to write DDPs with tags in tracks only without the corresponding album tags (for example different composers and also arrangers only in some tracks without "Album composer=various" and "Album arranger=various" etc).
...If only Reaper has this issue then it possibly might be worth to report a bug, what do you think?

Well, I would not be so quick in judging that.

I think what's the most important is whitepaper or DDP specification.
If it is not allowed to use those track tags when they are not entered (and that way "activated") in album tags , then it is HOFA and Sonoris that do it wrong, doing something in background to make life easier for user BUT! not really according to specs. I mean, maybe they silently add blank char or anything other that tricks it to behave like filled-in...

In such case I would like to Reaper stand technically correct. Maybe update DDP Help with such info to be precise.

WyattRice, you have a deeper knowledge about DDP specs, can you comment about it, please?

pustekuchen · 02-25-2020, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akademie

I think what's the most important is whitepaper or DDP specification.

Yes, absolutely. The most important thing is that the DDP is rendered correctly according to the specification.
Is anybody here who knows more about that?

WyattRice · 02-25-2020, 06:37 PM

I have the specification, but I don't think I can post here.

It's free, and here's the link.
I called them, and they were nice and walked me through it, I signed it, and they emailed me the spec, which is hard for me to understand, but the devs could.

Here's the link.
http://www.dcainc.com/support/docume...e-20111005.pdf

It was no big deal at all to get it emailed.

Thanks,
Wyatt