Old 06-18-2019, 11:19 AM   #1
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Default v5.979+dev0618 - June 18 2019

v5.979+dev0618 - June 18 2019
  • + Envelopes: don't preserve relative differences between points when editing via action [t=222016]
  • + MIDI editor: improve hidpi/retina drawing
  • + Performance meter: improve win32 hidpi drawing
  • + Render: add option to render selected tracks via master
  • + Render: support $item and $track wildcards when rendering selected media items via master
  • + Splash screen: improve win32 HiDPI
  • + Toolbars: improve hidpi/retina sizing (including editor and icon picker)
  • + UI scaling: apply advanced preference scaling changes immediately
  • + UI scaling: fix theme rendering bugs when using custom scaling
  • + Windows: HiDPI display improvements (auto-rescale more UI when running HiDPI aware)
  • + macOS: retina display improvements (retina display of arrange, ruler, MIDI editor, etc)
  • # JSFX: embedded hidpi support
  • # MIDI editor: snap inserted points to existing CC segment if nearby
  • # ReaComp: fix memory leak in embed mode, hidpi
  • # ReaEQ: retina support, retina embed support
  • # ReaFIR: retina drawing, embed
  • # ReaSurround HiDPI
  • # ReaXcomp retina support
  • # plugin embedding: improve retina/hidpi support
# note: on macOS you use a hidpi theme such as default_5.0_hidpi or default 6.0 alpha then embedded plugin UIs should render in retina

This thread is for pre-release features discussion. Use the Feature Requests forum for other requests.

Changelog - Pre-Releases

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:11 PM   #2
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+ Render: add option to render selected tracks via master
Amazing, thanks for this!

Also excited to try the various retina improvements.
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:13 PM   #3
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Also excited to try the various retina improvements.
Do it, just do it.
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:13 PM   #4
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nice... ever onward... even by drops the bucket is filled
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:16 PM   #5
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Getting some weird ghosting when drawing new MIDI items on a fresh track in a fresh project:

Ugh I can't embed this for some reason but here is the actual imgur link: https://imgur.com/WKdrJj6
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:17 PM   #6
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My question for devs is: considering HiDPI support and the need to calculate more and more pixels for bigger and bigger monitors... how about introducing GPU acceleration to Reaper, so that running a project with 100s of tracks doesn't become impossible to use because GUI becomes way too sluggish because it's calculated by the CPU?

How about some optimizations in that direction?
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:20 PM   #7
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My question for the devs is: considering HiDPI support and the need to calculate more and more pixels for bigger and bigger monitors... how about introducing GPU acceleration to Reaper, so that running a project with 100s of tracks doesn't become impossible to use because GUI becomes way too sluggish because it's calculated by the CPU?

How about some optimizations in that direction?
This build actually improves the Retina-mode GUI sluggishness I've been experiencing for many many releases now on my iMac Pro. I've been forced to run Reaper in Low Res mode to get the UI to not be unusably sluggish, but this build is a huge improvement in Retina mode.
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:21 PM   #8
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Getting some weird ghosting when drawing new MIDI items on a fresh track in a fresh project:

Ugh I can't embed this for some reason but here is the actual imgur link: https://imgur.com/WKdrJj6
I believe they test a new area selection feature.
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:35 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by mustgroove View Post
Getting some weird ghosting when drawing new MIDI items on a fresh track in a fresh project:

Ugh I can't embed this for some reason but here is the actual imgur link: https://imgur.com/WKdrJj6
System and display specs? Can you email your reaper.ini to support at cockos dot com? Thanks!
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Old 06-18-2019, 01:06 PM   #10
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My question for devs is: considering HiDPI support and the need to calculate more and more pixels for bigger and bigger monitors... how about introducing GPU acceleration to Reaper, so that running a project with 100s of tracks doesn't become impossible to use because GUI becomes way too sluggish because it's calculated by the CPU?

How about some optimizations in that direction?
I quote this.
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Old 06-18-2019, 01:48 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by mustgroove View Post
This build actually improves the Retina-mode GUI sluggishness I've been experiencing for many many releases now on my iMac Pro. I've been forced to run Reaper in Low Res mode to get the UI to not be unusably sluggish, but this build is a huge improvement in Retina mode.
The issue also happens for non-HiDPI users. Large number of tracks bogs down the response of the UI considerably, sometimes to the point of unusable. GUI accelleration would help here, and relieve the load from the CPU. Both HiDPI and non-HiDPI users would benefit...
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Old 06-18-2019, 01:48 PM   #12
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[*]+ Render: add option to render selected tracks via master
Awesome! Now we're only missing the same feature for regions, which would be killer.
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Old 06-18-2019, 01:53 PM   #13
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Awesome! Now we're only missing the same feature for regions, which would be killer.
You can currently render selected tracks, within selected regions, via the master, or not via the master. And of course you can just render the master within selected regions.

Adding support to the region render matrix so you could render different sets of tracks within different regions via the master or not via the master gets kind of complicated!

Last edited by schwa; 06-18-2019 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:00 PM   #14
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The issue also happens for non-HiDPI users. Large number of tracks bogs down the response of the UI considerably, sometimes to the point of unusable. GUI accelleration would help here, and relieve the load from the CPU. Both HiDPI and non-HiDPI users would benefit...
I might be wrong but I don't think rendering of pixels is the expensive part, usually the slowness comes from getting peaks data from disk etc. (a good test would be to try disabling peaks display in the prefs and see how that helps).
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:06 PM   #15
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Awesome! Now we're only missing the same feature for regions, which would be killer.
So, you want to render a region without the Master FX chain?
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:08 PM   #16
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I might be wrong but I don't think rendering of pixels is the expensive part, usually the slowness comes from getting peaks data from disk etc. (a good test would be to try disabling peaks display in the prefs and see how that helps).
What I'm mentioning is the case with MIDI-heavy projects, so no audio in the project. Like Kontakt-heavy orchestral templates with 1000-2000 and more tracks, lots of things preloaded, etc.

Things become sluggish in the UI even with completely empty tracks...
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:10 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
What I'm mentioning is the case with MIDI-heavy projects, so no audio in the project. Like Kontakt-heavy orchestral templates with 1000-2000 and more tracks, lots of things preloaded, etc.
Ah try it with peaks disabled too, maybe we need to optimize the MIDI to peaks conversion...
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:18 PM   #18
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Could do. But MIDI peaks are kinda important

By the way, I just had to reset my computer after trying to copy-paste empty unarmed tracks in Reaper. I got to around 1500 tracks, then when I pasted the next 512, CPU got around 70% and Reaper unresponsive, I couldn't alt-tab between any programs, just had to reset it...

I know that's a completely different issue (no peaks are at play here), but still... this sort of thing should not happen, right?

Last edited by EvilDragon; 06-18-2019 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:40 PM   #19
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Could do. But MIDI peaks are kinda important
Yes but it's important to know what the cause of the slowdown is. Adding GPU acceleration when it would accelerate the part that takes a tiny portion of the time would be useless.

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By the way, I just had to reset my computer after trying to copy-paste empty unarmed tracks in Reaper. I got to around 1500 tracks, then when I pasted the next 512, CPU got around 70% and Reaper unresponsive, I couldn't alt-tab between any programs, just had to reset it...

I know that's a completely different issue (no peaks are at play here), but still... this sort of thing should not happen, right?
Maybe tell REAPER not to use all your cores (N-1?)?
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:46 PM   #20
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Maybe tell REAPER not to use all your cores (N-1?)?
Tried it, got a BSOD now (CLOCK_WATCHDOG_TIMEOUT) when going from 512 to 1024 tracks in a single copy operation. Actually, did you mean the audio processing threads count option in Audio->Buffering, or the one in Advanced UI/system tweaks? I tried the former. Lemme try the latter now. (EDIT: no BSOD but still had to restart.)

I suppose copying 512 tracks in one go is not a good idea. Still, I wouldn't expect a complete system halt.


I notice when copying a larger amount of tracks, the first few tracks show up really fast on the UI (what fits within the viewport), but then Reaper is probably filling the out-of-screen buffer (if there is any, I suppose there is?) with all those other tracks, and THIS is what makes things severely unresponsive with larger track copying actions.
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Old 06-18-2019, 04:46 PM   #21
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Thanks ED for bringing up this topic. @Justin, there might be a lot of users with the same experience. I'll try to gather them and point them to this thread.
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:06 PM   #22
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Very grateful for attention to retina issues.
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:08 PM   #23
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I suppose copying 512 tracks in one go is not a good idea. Still, I wouldn't expect a complete system halt.
Your case is pretty extreme... but it does show a trend or a risk of some sorts regarding the code that runs the UI etc... I hope it'll get looked into even if very few would go to those extremes when using the software it would make it much more stable and might reveal some issues that only show heir heads in those extreme cases

But regarding the GPU acceleration, I'm kinda with ED on this one, I've had to disable some UI stuff to make sure there's as little CPU cycles put to anything else than rendering the audio. I get spurious buffer under-runs when scrolling around and as such I've disabled the screen following of the play cursor to make sure I don't get one when recording.

Drawing peaks during recording is also something that takes cycles and eats away at those precious precious time slices from interrupts so it's disabled just in case.

If I have large mixer with 20+ tracks with meters visible, that can cause issues as well some times.

In general, having GPU do graphics with little to no load on the processor is a good idea. Though it's a large amount of work (I've done some OpenGL stuff and it's not trivial). But when you get those VBO's (Or are they already using something else these days?) to do the rendering work for you the CPU is basically dead weight in the equation and can do something more suitable ;D

Though, if I recall when reading the VST specification many years ago, each plugin chooses how they render their graphics on their own? They are just child processes that are just run by another program that interacts with them. Thus devs probably can't do much if anything regarding those third party plugins and their UI hogging CPU cycles.

But anyway... it's not a huge issue currently. There are much more... pressing matters to attend to I'm sure

Thank you for constantly developing REAPER, it has taken a really large leap during 5.xxx.
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:20 PM   #24
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System and display specs? Can you email your reaper.ini to support at cockos dot com? Thanks!
iMac Pro, using built-in display, Vega 64 graphics, running Mojave 10.14.5

Emailing the reaper.ini now
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:21 PM   #25
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My question for devs is: considering HiDPI support and the need to calculate more and more pixels for bigger and bigger monitors... how about introducing GPU acceleration to Reaper, so that running a project with 100s of tracks doesn't become impossible to use because GUI becomes way too sluggish because it's calculated by the CPU?

How about some optimizations in that direction?
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:13 PM   #26
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v5.979+dev0618 - June 18 2019[*]# MIDI editor: snap inserted points to existing CC segment if nearby
thank you much, this is working perfectly.
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Old 06-18-2019, 07:35 PM   #27
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iMac Pro, using built-in display, Vega 64 graphics, running Mojave 10.14.5

Emailing the reaper.ini now
Thanks, should be fixed in the next build!
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Old 06-18-2019, 10:31 PM   #28
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Though, if I recall when reading the VST specification many years ago, each plugin chooses how they render their graphics on their own? They are just child processes that are just run by another program that interacts with them. Thus devs probably can't do much if anything regarding those third party plugins and their UI hogging CPU cycles.
Yes, but I'm talking purely about Reaper's UI, not plugin UIs.
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Old 06-19-2019, 12:27 AM   #29
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Yes, thanks for bringing this up ED!
I'm a composer for media by trait, with my main focus on orchestral productions. I've been using Cubase for many years and for the first got really seriously into REAPER this past month or so.
What can I say, I'm absolutely hooked and would love nothing more than to finally ditch Cubase (we've had a hate-love relationship for many years now ). Unfortunately there are 2 main problems that prevent me from doing so and I think this applies to many other people who do the same stuff that I do:

- Probably the biggest one is that on my 4k display I can't even have a project with ~100 tracks without the UI becoming completely laggy and unresponsive. I just recently posted about this [here.]
- The other big problem is that you can't really build a large template. In my line of work it is completely common to have project templates with 1000s of tracks. For example my main Cubase template has around 2700 tracks. All these tracks are 'deactivated', so they don't use any CPU or RAM whatsoever and can be reactivated for usage at any time you need them.
Unfortunately this isn't really possible in REAPER, because of how every track uses CPU even if it is idle. It would be great if there was a way, to have idle tracks not use any CPU (for example with a native deactivation feature as recently discussed [here]), so that it's possible to build these massive templates.

The 2nd problem is a bit less urgent to me than the first (for people without a 4k display it might be the other way around), since track templates work really well and I've compromised to have an empty template and load stuff in as I go. But as great as track templates work, having everything pre-loaded is still quite a bit faster and preferable for me and most people I know who do similar work.
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Old 06-19-2019, 02:43 AM   #30
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Hi Justin,

v5.979+dev0618 has broken the Default 5.0 HiDPI theme and my themes (https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=217825) based off of the Default 5.0 HiDPI theme (and the JRENG!_METRIC theme). It seems that 'version 5' 'global_scale 2.0' no longer works for me* on Windows 10 x64...

*I'm not using a HiDPI screen (27" 1920x1080 monitor). I was using the HiDPI version for a larger / clearer interface & text, due to my poor vision and my workflow not needing to see a zillion tracks at once...

Default 5.0 HiDPI | v5.979
https://stash.reaper.fm/36572/def_5_hidpi_v5.979.png
Default 5.0 HiDPI | v5.979+dev0618
https://stash.reaper.fm/36573/def_5_...79_dev0618.png

Stealth GT | v5.979
https://stash.reaper.fm/36574/stealth_gt_v5.979.png
Stealth GT | v5.979+dev0618
https://stash.reaper.fm/36575/stealt...79_dev0618.png

  • White Tie warned me that there would be changes and my work may get broken.
  • Using v5.979+dev0618, if I select: scale UI elements by: 2.00 (under Advanced UI/system Settings), it brings back most elements to the correct size but some text looks grainy and the faders for the native plugins / routing window (and other windows...) remain small / broken.
  • Currently, with the Default 6.0 Alpha theme, I can select 150% or 200% in the Options / Layouts menu but it doesn't affect the whole interface. Only affects the Transport / ENVCP / MCP / TCP. Not the Toolbars / Timeline / Regions / Markers, etc...
Should I assume that for my needs / specific usage, my themes will no longer work correctly as of REAPER v6?

Just looking for clarification if possible... I realize that my needs are not of the many! B)
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Old 06-19-2019, 03:14 AM   #31
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Ugh I can't embed this for some reason but here is the actual imgur link: https://imgur.com/WKdrJj6
imgur inexplicably removed the ".gif" from their bbcode link generator so now you have to put it in manually. it's stupid.
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Old 06-19-2019, 04:40 AM   #32
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regarding laggy GUI - here's an anecdote i hope is on topic.

i experience much greater lag when using (one midi editor per project / open all midi in project / all midi visible, other tracks at 2 opacity).

if i instead show only the single track midi, i don't get the same lag.

this rears its head once the rpp grows more complex. for reference, i experience this with ~8 midi tracks containing single channel midi items containing non-outrageous, often monophonic melody lines with the occasional pitchbend/cc movements.

unfortunately, the scenario of a complex project is precisely where seeing all project midi is helpful - but this is when the UI lag occurs. i'm lucky that most of my songs are nearing completion at around the time when this UI lag starts being a problem.
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Old 06-19-2019, 05:25 AM   #33
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Working and looking loads better on my 5k iMac now, it is heaven not looking at blurry text etc now))), I really hope that you can make the movement of the playhead smoother please!.


Also when I click on the monitor fx up in the top right it will not open at all.. I have to go to the view menu to open monitor fx.

Thanks.
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Old 06-19-2019, 05:39 AM   #34
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Hi!

Plugins┤TCP controls look awful and confusing right now :

v5.79+dev0618 :



The plugin┤s alias is "VOL 36". You can easily see that it looks as "VOL 360.0" in this dev release.


Up until v5.79, things looked much clearer :



(No HiDPI, by the way)


This is surely an easy one to fix...


Thanks in advance!
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Old 06-19-2019, 06:05 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by +NRG View Post
Hi Justin,

v5.979+dev0618 has broken the Default 5.0 HiDPI theme and my themes (https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=217825) based off of the Default 5.0 HiDPI theme (and the JRENG!_METRIC theme). It seems that 'version 5' 'global_scale 2.0' no longer works for me* on Windows 10 x64...

*I'm not using a HiDPI screen (27" 1920x1080 monitor). I was using the HiDPI version for a larger / clearer interface & text, due to my poor vision and my workflow not needing to see a zillion tracks at once...

Default 5.0 HiDPI | v5.979
https://stash.reaper.fm/36572/def_5_hidpi_v5.979.png
Default 5.0 HiDPI | v5.979+dev0618
https://stash.reaper.fm/36573/def_5_...79_dev0618.png

Stealth GT | v5.979
https://stash.reaper.fm/36574/stealth_gt_v5.979.png
Stealth GT | v5.979+dev0618
https://stash.reaper.fm/36575/stealt...79_dev0618.png

  • White Tie warned me that there would be changes and my work may get broken.
  • Using v5.979+dev0618, if I select: scale UI elements by: 2.00 (under Advanced UI/system Settings), it brings back most elements to the correct size but some text looks grainy and the faders for the native plugins / routing window (and other windows...) remain small / broken.
  • Currently, with the Default 6.0 Alpha theme, I can select 150% or 200% in the Options / Layouts menu but it doesn't affect the whole interface. Only affects the Transport / ENVCP / MCP / TCP. Not the Toolbars / Timeline / Regions / Markers, etc...
Should I assume that for my needs / specific usage, my themes will no longer work correctly as of REAPER v6?

Just looking for clarification if possible... I realize that my needs are not of the many! B)
Hi, in 5.979+dev0618+ if you want the larger themes, you should go to preferences/general/advanced, and check the
"Scaling UI elements of track/mixer panels" box, and set the value next to it to 2.0 (or 1.5, or...).

That, combined with the Default 5.0 HiDPI theme, will give you similar results to 5.979.
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Old 06-19-2019, 06:05 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soli Deo Gloria View Post
Hi!

Plugins┤TCP controls look awful and confusing right now :
Thanks, fixing!
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Old 06-19-2019, 06:37 AM   #37
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With the retina changes & improvements here I'm hopeful the GUI lag situation can be addressed in a major way, here's some observations from my setup:


- On my iMac Pro with Vega 64 graphics (which has tons of power), Reaper has extreme GUI lag. One solution is to run it in Low Res mode, the other solution is to switch the colour profile of the display to sRGB IEC61966-2.1 in System Preferences. The colour profile fix apparently fixes GUI lag in other apps which exhibit similar GUI lag.

Also, Voxengo have been updating their plugins with Retina GUI support, but their older non-Retina versions exhibited the same extreme lag on my iMac Pro, and the new Retina updates seem to have fixed it completely.

- On my MacBook Pro, Reaper is fine. No need to switch to Low Res mode or use a different colour profile, and the non-Retina Voxengo plugins never had an issue.


So there's definitely something specific to iMacs / iMac Pros with 5K screens where somehow GUI lag seems connected to a lack of a full Retina GUI implementation. Just adding that alone seems to fix the problem.

I'm definitely all for GPU acceleration in Reaper too, I guess the question is how to do that in a cross-platform way given OpenGL's deprecation on Mac.
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Old 06-19-2019, 06:50 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
Thanks ED for bringing up this topic. @Justin, there might be a lot of users with the same experience. I'll try to gather them and point them to this thread.
Sorry if I'm adding noise here, but I have had the same experience. i got some reprieve from setting thread behaviour to relaxed, but it's still not perfect.

About tracks being deactivated, we have the option "Muted tracks take no cpu time"
This should mean that if you mute the track it is deactivated, however this doesn't seem to be entirely true.

I decided to run some quick tests

Specs: i7 7700k 32Gb nvidia 970

1st duplicating empty tracks exponentially up to 1024.

Got a crash immediately, repeatedly selecting all tracks and duplicating with shortcuts, not sure if related

Performance is ok here, around 2% cpu usage, but a slightly worrying 10% rt cpu usage
No visible slowdown of ui, but the rt increase will hinder intensive project playback


2nd test duplicating empty tracks to 1024 each loaded with my default chain, all disabled.

Chain is:
pro q 2
soundtoys effect rack
pro c 2
reacomp
pro l

At 1024 tracks the system is using 75% cpu, 41% rt cpu, and once it began to work was largely unresponsive, and certainly not usable. Moving the playhead took on average 10s.

Also, going from 512 to 1024 took around 5 minutes to complete, during which time the program was locked
Deleting the tracks hung the program and I killed it after 5 minutes of waiting.


3rd test, 1024 tracks but with the fx in the chain set to offline

Performance is slightly better here, 60% cpu, 30% rt cpu
Playhead takes around 3s to move after a click, so it's almost usable, not tried any playback though.

4th 1024 tracks fx in the chain offline, tracks muted

Muting the tracks here gives an improvement in cpu to 7%, however rt cpu jumps to 55%, which would kill the playback performance if I were playing anything.

5th 1024 tracks fx in the chain disabled, tracks muted

Here I get 20% cpu, 63% rt cpu


In conclusion, it seems that the problem is not the actual empty tracks which is the problem, but the plugins on them. If you were to create a 5000 track template, you would want there to be plugins on there, or there would be no point in making it. I haven't found a way to do this without incurring some sort of slowdown as a result.
Muting tracks seems to shift the problem into the rt cpu, and setting plugins to offline seems to still have a large impact.

These are not scientific tests, but I hope they can give an indicator of where the problems lie
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Old 06-19-2019, 06:54 AM   #39
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I guess, if you guys could provide Justin with some sample projecs, this could help.
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Old 06-19-2019, 07:03 AM   #40
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It's pretty easy to just start duplicating tracks and see where it gets ya, though. With or without plugins on it...

The problem is evident and does exist. The question is - will devs support this particular workflow by required optimizations (which I'm hoping are still possible)?
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