10-11-2018, 10:37 AM | #41 | |
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10-11-2018, 10:40 AM | #42 |
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Please people, don't get personal and please don't start another OS religious discussion, so far they never led to anything good
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10-11-2018, 10:40 AM | #43 | |
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This thread is about native linux plugins/tools.
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10-11-2018, 10:41 AM | #44 | |
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And please don't put words in other people's mouths! Linux is my favorite operating system. I can't describe how ridiculous it sounds to tell me I'm bashing Linux!
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10-11-2018, 11:02 AM | #45 | |
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windows -conan-the-barbarian- style invasions of it's users private computers and data. And the convoluted file-systems imposed on developers and users alike, takes a heavy toll on creatives, musicians, or otherwise. Any half-dozen mega-synths that work fine in wine, surely balance out the comparative lack of native plugins. I've spent about $1000 on no-brainer software sales over the years, and will never scratch the surface of their capabilities, in this life. Cueing the reggae...wait for it........."Be Happy!" |
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10-11-2018, 11:04 AM | #46 |
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As I said before, I understand that you want to use those tools (I expected as much), that you are an entrenched user. Maybe lead with that instead of wide-sweeping generalizations about Linux not being a viable OS for a DAW. I don't agree with the idea of people ridiculing you, but again look at where you are and the statements you made. If you'd have said "hey why not try (this synth)" and then followed up with "I won't be using Linux for my DAW because it won't run Melodyne", I doubt you'd have an argument resulting.
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10-11-2018, 11:07 AM | #47 | |
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What the Dockerfile I mentioned does is create an execution environment with all the necessary dependencies to be able to compile a software project like ZynAddSubFX. You need not really know anything to use it - just do what's described in the project's README, and that's it. Of course you must know how to run the docker container, but that's easy, too.
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10-11-2018, 11:11 AM | #48 | |
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There is really not a lot that can be done about this, except to wait and hope But in the meantime it's become feasible to run plugins and other software in wine, and support will become better as wine implements missing functionality and bridges improve. IMO reaper on linux would benefit immensely from having a builtin wine vst bridge! Simplifying things for the user to the point of install your vst plugins with wine and point reaper to the directory containing the plugins. Faster load times, VST3 support, better support for realtime threads, and possibly faster execution times for monitoring through fx at low latency, etc Personally I think that there is place for improvements to the bridges, and possibly some of it could best be made from inside of reaper itself and not really by a third party. Who knows, maybe some day Still it's nice that it's totally possible to track and mix with windows vsts when you use high latency. I'm not sure I'd like to mix in reaper without the fabfilter plugins for instance. IMO in this aspect the future will be far better as machines get faster, software improves, and there is also the hope that as there is more commercial interest in audio on linux, more software will be ported.
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10-11-2018, 11:12 AM | #49 | |
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I'm not talking about you, just to be clear. Anyway, end of discussion. I guess everything has been said.
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10-11-2018, 11:18 AM | #50 | |
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I wish there was something more we could do to make the bigger companies give Linux a chance. That's where I am afraid not much will change any time soon. Hope dies last.
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10-11-2018, 11:32 AM | #51 | |
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you can't resist pointing out the superiority of wait for it........non native linux plugins. Same old rusty saw gets played at gearslutz and kvr a few times every year, don't need that here. We would benefit from knowledge shared about tools we use, rather than being lectured that linux audio tools are a joke. You said " it is almost 100% unusable, because there is virtually NOTHING available." (As for melodyne, izotope, etc I'm sure Bob Dylan and Neil Young have utilized the secretive Melodyne Pro Super Elite version to good advantage, vocal correction being all the rage these days.) |
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10-11-2018, 11:52 AM | #52 | |
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Nowadays I mostly record my band. My workflow is to render group stems which I use for backing tracks when I track new material, just to be sure of no problems Monitoring is handled by external hardware. I also edit and mix material in reaper with quite a few plugins, like ff, ik, ni, waves, etc. I mostly work at 1024 samples buffer. This is working fine for me personally but won't be enough for everyone.. BTW, I've long failed to use melodyne in wine, but a month or two ago I got it working again. Don't know what changed.. OK, since we have no vst3 bridge we won't get the ara2 integration, but some day Still melodyne worked as it does on windows out of linux for reaper. I also tried izotope about 6 months ago, but couldn't get it working. Still I have to admit, that booting win10 and loading a reaper project using windows vsts is a sobering experience... It runs way better and at much lower latency. Still work needs to be done in this area But in the final analysis, it works for what I do and I'm happy and grateful to the world We'll see what the future brings, personally I can also understand that companies would say fsck linux, freeloading users, no market, a support nightmare, etc, etc... On the other hand Steam is revolutionizing linux gaming, there are a few big name video editing programs around, etc, etc. Hopefully the bigger audio companies catch on some day too In fact waves soundgrid already run the dsp on linux servers, no gui to buy though.. superior drums is built with JUCE, so ought to be easy to port, etc, etc.
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10-11-2018, 12:35 PM | #53 | |||
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If it had built-in WINE VST bridge, heads would explode. Quote:
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10-11-2018, 12:42 PM | #54 | |
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Windows/Mac only vendors ain't getting any more of my money! |
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10-11-2018, 12:55 PM | #55 | |
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I actually find it somewhat liberating being free of the tethered feeling I had with Windows. Very much like when I stopped using Cakewalk Sonar and the handful of tethered plugins I used with it. I also felt liberated when switching to 64 bit from 32 bit Windows, and all my DX/DXi plugins would no longer work. Suddenly I was dependent primarily on myself, and my own talents, and not dependent on some plugin that I believed made me sound good. |
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10-11-2018, 01:00 PM | #56 | |
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10-11-2018, 01:17 PM | #57 | |
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10-11-2018, 02:42 PM | #58 | |
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That's a big conversation. Some of the most useful plugins are things you'd never seen before, like "Righteous" for instance. If you go by his simple description (in the included TXT file in the archive of VST plugins), you'd probably miss its point entirely. Its default setting is probably the worst, too. Anyway that one, for example: it's very useful for keeping some peak dynamics especially in the higher frequencies in a way that's different from any other plugin I've ever used. You have to look at the peak level before the plugin, decide how much headroom you want to leave for some "liveliness peaks", then adjust the "Ltarget" top slider to allow those peaks to rise above "the rest of the sound". (And the bottom slider is what you want the general output of the mix to be in terms of bit depth.) Use it on your master. Start with both sliders all the way to the right. Read the description on the plugin page and watch the video (yes I know the videos ramble and sometimes his examples are poor, but it's worthwhile). Some of my favorites are some of the simplest plugins, like "Highpass". It's a different kind of highpass, and dynamic. Once you try it, you'll never forget it's in your list of plugins. (You wouldn't use it for every highpass duty, but you'll know why you'll be using it in the future.) IronOxide5 sounds great to me as a tape saturation sim, my favorite actually. Like some of the plugins (BussColors, Channel6, etc.) you have to be careful of the level that hits the front of the plugin. If it's pushed too hard, it'll sound bad and you'll miss the point of the plugin (as I've noticed in some Youtube comments with people ripping on some of his plugins). Consider most of his plugins as elements in a toolbox, not necessarily that he's trying to make each plugin to be some whiz-bang thing. I use about 10 of his plugins fairly regularly, a few of those in every mix. And I use a few more every so often. It'll depend on what sort of "mix massaging" you're after. To get further into this conversation I'd probably have to talk on the phone about it. |
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10-11-2018, 02:48 PM | #59 | |
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I just copied/pasted the commands into terminal one at a time. That's after I dissected the first command (which was installing all the dependencies, since it barfed about some problems, mostly because I had newer versions of some dependances, so I just started adding things in Synaptic Package Manager instead and figured out what I needed and what I didn't). Once that was resolved, I just watched Terminal for any problems, copied/pasted each command, and then it worked out fine. There was some folder permission error (it wouldn't create preset folders for instance) so I had to restart the "ruby" line a few times after manually making the folders/changing permissions. It was pretty easy though. |
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10-11-2018, 05:12 PM | #60 | |
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Too many "Air" things to remember!
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10-12-2018, 09:06 AM | #61 | |
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Don't forget to download all the free presets, too!
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10-12-2018, 09:17 AM | #62 |
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10-12-2018, 09:18 AM | #63 | |||||
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And if the others keep avoiding Linux, then U-HE has to fill all the remaining gaps!
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10-12-2018, 11:42 AM | #64 | |
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i_s n_ot e_mulator The acronym reminds that the wine team never tries to deal with the entire windows system, rather, the goal is to manage just enough of the api to get chosen apps on screen, connected to ports, and responding to hardware. Plenty for Reaper to run fast and stable in wine for many years. In my experience, of which coding is not a part, the less a software relies on windows code, the better it runs in reaper/wine. IK Multimedia, appears to be a good example, with SampleTank3, Amplitube4, Custom Shops, and a thorough account manager and registration scheme, that one might expect any given part of to fall sideways soon after pressing the 'any' key, yet things work very well. The quality and efficiency of Reaper itself is a constant reminder to competing daw coders, that megabytes can defeat gigabytes. 100 meg of wine code...how massive is a windows OS download? Hopefully, I'll never know based on personal experience. Cheers |
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10-12-2018, 03:48 PM | #65 |
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If you need / want / have to run Windows plug-ins, the best OS to use is Windows. WINE is very clever, but ultimately you are running binaries compiled for a completely different OS, built against a completely different set of dependencies - and the evidence is that for many plug-ins, compatibility is fragile and very WINE version dependent. What appears to work now may suddenly stop working and it may be impossible to establish the cause.
If you use (or want to use) Linux, its best to use native Linux host applications and plug-ins - eventually this will encourage development / porting of more plug-ins and host applications. I made some (commercial) native Linux plug-ins, that work - here: https://www.overtonedsp.co.uk/ They work with Reaper, can be downloaded and tried for free (and the full versions are now only £10 each - so they're practically free too). |
10-12-2018, 11:39 PM | #66 |
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Wine is an emulator, no matter what the acronym stands for: it tries to emulate the Windows infrastructure and the runtime environment for Windows executables and libraries. It just does not emulate any specific hardware, that's all.
Wine - as great as it is - can always only be a compromise, and, like Mike said, it will always be a fragile one. It helps to reduce the pain in certain areas (within certain limits), but it's not a really satisfying, stable and performant solution. We need native 1176 and LAxA style and opto compressor plugins, dynamic EQs, decent multiband compressors, pro-level M/S tools, good reverbs, etc. It's still a long way to go, but with DAWs like REAPER and BitWig at least there is a tiny bit of hope now.
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10-13-2018, 12:19 AM | #67 |
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I'm guessing you have very specific plugins you'd like for those tasks, because if those things you mentioned didn't exist natively for Linux (JS plugins, Linux VST) I wouldn't have just migrated to Linux.
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10-13-2018, 01:17 AM | #68 | |
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However, I must say that for a single-band compressor with multiple capabilities the U-HE Presswerk is definitely not a bad choice. But if you do a lot of mixing every day, you probably know yourself that you need specific tools for specific tasks. While I do reach for the same 4 or 5 compressors in almost all my mixes, there are situations where I need something different, and that freedom of choice is simply non-existent for Linux users. I haven't found a good(!) limiter or multi-band compressor either. Never found ANY dynamic EQ at all (which I use and need in all my mixes).
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10-13-2018, 02:32 AM | #69 |
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It's doubtful there will be any "valid proof" here either, then.
Everyone has their preferences, and if you're an entrenched user of specific plugins, nothing I say will convince you to use anything else. However these plugins are quite capable of making great-sounding mixes and working in a professional environment. You've probably already tried and rejected some of these since some of them are included in Reaper. I'd recommend you try them again, using your ears and some patience (and leave your preconceptions aside). It took me long enough to get over my preconceptions, so I know how it is... Compressors:
Multiband compressors:
Mid-side stuff:
Dynamic EQ:
Reverb:
As for convolution reverbs: for a very long time they were my preference for "bigger" reverb sounds (I only used impulses for more realistic sounding small-to-medium room sounds), but once I got used to the idea of "messing with" impulses as I mentioned above, I didn't care about convolution reverbs anymore. Keep in mind you can save FX chains easily and recall them with a right-click from the MCP. So you can "piece together a tool" with several plugins (mid/side with separate EQ/comp etc.) that's complex as an FX chain and treat it effectively as a single plugin for recall in other projects. You can also name the plugins in your chain whatever you want to identify them for their role in the chain, instead of leaving the default plugin names (in the pane on the left). Last edited by JamesPeters; 10-13-2018 at 02:50 AM. |
10-13-2018, 03:15 AM | #70 |
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Thanks a lot for the effort, James!
I know many of the tools you mentioned, but not all - will give the other ones a try when time allows. BTW, I'm probably the least "entrenched" user in the universe. I keep looking for alternatives and want to try EVERYTHING, just because I'm curious.
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10-13-2018, 03:39 AM | #71 | |
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However, on a more positive note, there are many fine tools in Linux to manipulate noise, and i respectfully suggest you take a dive into some of them and spend an afternoon or two exploring the possibilities. I'm using Linuxsampler (GIG, SFZ, and SF2 formats) as my one and only go to sample player for my orchestral libs (Nearly all GIG). I've spent some coins recently buying up gig versions for instruments and sections I feel would enhance what i already have, and although there's not as big a selection to choose from, and some are naturally hard to find, it's not impossible with a bit of effort. There were a couple of hoops to jump through, but nothing that serious. I no longer have Wine installed on my system, at all. It's all native Linux and i'm enjoying writing music once again, instead of spending a lot of time on admin, or non music related activities, trying to get this or that windows app to work properly. And a final positive note. No dev who only builds Windows or Mac plugins or apps gets my cash. It might seem a bit futile as there's only one of me, but i don't think i'm the only one. There is no compulsory requirement to financially support a company that doesn't give you what you want. Retail Economics 101. Don't forget to tell them why you won't be buying their product, or supporting it in any way. Alex.
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10-13-2018, 03:55 AM | #72 | |
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On the subject of Airwindows, and compressors in particular, I'd like to recommend Pyewacket and VariMu. You will have to wrap your head around how they work because they are quite different, and I don't even necessarily use them the way he recommends. He also has a bunch of plugins that can emulate vinyl, tape, etc., IronOxide5 being my favourite of those, and Righteous sort of falling into that category as well in its own unique way... that is a plug-in you really need to learn how to use but once you do, you'll realize how special it is. Channel6 is nice too but you have to make sure you're not hitting the input too hard (or instead of subtle coloration it will sound like hard clipping); make sure you leave at least 10-15 db of peak headroom prior to it. With plugins like that, I don't really care if the compressors or EQs that I use have any particular coloration. Also if you haven't really tried using ReaComp a lot, consider:
I wouldn't use a single compressor for everything, but ReaComp is a solid "go-to anytime" compressor for good reason. (And it's the lowest CPU-usage compressor I've used.) There are other JS compressors which have different behavior including adjustable envelope decay time (and feedforward/feedback), one of which being witti_w_comp_feedback. Some others I use: w_comp_auto (aka "3 compressors in series"), w_comp_punch, w_comp_rms, w_comp_sat. Each has something different to offer. As for EQs that behave differently: there are several JS EQ plugins I use. Some are better at certain kinds of curve shapes, some are designed to function similarly to the designs ("on paper") of classic EQs, etc. Airwindows has several EQ plugins that are unique too (ToneSlant, Highpass, Lowpass, Average, Groovewear, Capacitor, Energy, etc.); they all have a certain character and in some cases dynamic response to the input/frequencies they handle. None of them are outright "dynamic EQs" in every sense, but each handles its task very well. Chain a few different "mini tools" like this in your track, and it might as well be some "magic hardware emulation"...but with probably more control. Last edited by JamesPeters; 10-13-2018 at 01:30 PM. |
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10-13-2018, 02:42 PM | #73 |
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Wine is not an egg. But like an egg, if it's broken,
you just wipe up the mess, (press DEL) and grab another one. And it's trivial to have a basket full of different kinds of eggs. I have a wine for trouble-free commercial plugins, a wine just for Native Instruments, a wine for testing new plugins and over-rides, and retesting stubborn plugins, and another with a dozen over-rides that contains both freeware and commercial plugins in working order. And I keep multiple computers and boot setups, preserving a lot of golden oldies, while choosing a linux fit for the task. The muse never has to gripe about bordom, a short supply, or some specific linux version coddling a pet fiasco into the next decade. For the guy on the street, not running a commercial studio, using reaper in wine is a shortcut out of Redmond, without leaving one's collection of plugins at the city limits. And then along comes airwave, linvst, and a whole new bunch of wrapped plugins hit linux operational status ...and then linux Reaper emerges from bitwigs shadow, Ardour turns into Mixbus, Traction exhales, and more people leave the mainstream, some prodded by the flaws and malware of win 10, some by Apples pricing and dodgy update scheme, and some are kids just out of the nest, seeing some drunk knuckledragger band on stage knock over the laptop, and thinking, 'I can do better than that, I wonder what's out there?' Cheers |
10-13-2018, 02:57 PM | #74 | |
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and always moving forward. It's made great progress in the past two years, with no sign of slowing down. You're far better at coding, than serving fud. Cheers |
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10-13-2018, 03:00 PM | #75 | |
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Now I'm seeing it's faster than I realized to do thinks like change kernels, add/remove packages (and their dependencies, handled easier than I thought by Synaptic and/or MX Package Manager)...it may not be 100% foolproof but it's actually a lot more solid and tidy than I'd expected. I'm fine using native Linux software/plugins. But if I weren't, I'd use WINE. Even if it adds some CPU strain, my system currently functions around 30% more efficiently in Reaper than it did using Windows 7, so I'm not concerned. Even if some software were released now that I thought was a "killer app" and it were Windows-only, I'd not bother going back to Windows; I'd just get it working in WINE. |
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10-13-2018, 03:09 PM | #76 | |
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10-13-2018, 03:13 PM | #77 |
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Maybe he should install this (appropriately, it's Linux software, lol):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese_(software) |
10-13-2018, 03:21 PM | #78 | |
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Here's another one to go with your WINE and REAPER. Triple Cheese! https://u-he.com/products/triplecheese/ |
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10-13-2018, 04:53 PM | #79 |
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T3 was used in OneSynthChallenge #46
here's a link to an archive of the song entries, 400+ meg: https://archive.org/compress/KvrOsc4...ipleCheese.zip This month, T3 is getting a second go at the OSC 116 https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...p?f=1&t=512269 The Cheese video app looks cool, will try that one, if I don't get a hangover. Cheers |
10-13-2018, 04:59 PM | #80 | |
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while using linux reaper to host wrapped lv2 effects plugins. Both daws taking line-input from my guitar amp. Felt a bit like cheating, until I blinked my eyes... Cheers |
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