v6.13+dev0729 - July 29 2020

[xpander]

Originally Posted by cool

But, i found the bug here: when cursor is out of arrange view, cursor_seltrack.png is disappear

That's because it is still a cursor image for the selected track, not a selected track highlight. So when you don't have the cursor in view, that is expected to happen.

[cool]

Originally Posted by xpander

That's because it is still a cursor image for the selected track, not a selected track highlight. So when you don't have the cursor in view, that is expected to happen.

Yes, I understand that. And if this is fixed, it will provide more customization possibilities.

.

[bFooz]

I would expect pasted items to go to the selected tracks, that's one job of something being selected. Why to use another slightly different but almost the same concept of "last touched track" to be a target for pasting? This is soo confusing and always surprises me. Luckily there's undo but 3 seconds of life each time are not gonna roll back and creative flow suffers.

This new thing of "last touched track indicator" just makes things even more confusing.



EDIT: Note on UX again:
There is this recent story:
1) the guy criticises Musescore big time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hZxo96x48A
2) Musescore hires him as a chief designer
3) Musescore gets better with so great plans for the next version https://musescore.org/en/MuseScore4

[ramses]

Originally Posted by cool

Very cool! Thanks for idea!

But, i found the bug here: when cursor is out of arrange view, cursor_seltrack.png is disappear.

That's no good. Track selection tint needs to stay with track selection. I don't particularly like the idea of confusing track selection and cursor, seems limiting and unnecessary. Keep them separate, they are not the same thing at all.

[xpander]

Originally Posted by ramses

Track selection tint needs to stay with track selection. I don't particularly like the idea of confusing track selection and cursor, seems limiting and unnecessary. Keep them separate, they are not the same thing at all.

What was stated as a bug above is just an attempt by some users to use the cursor_seltrack.png also as a last touched track highlight. I understand why, but that image is not really meant for it, so it only works in certain conditions...that being that the cursor is actually visible in arrange and over a track lane, not empty area.

Afais, there is nothing to be fixed with that, the last touched track tint should be taken care of with other means > FR.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by bFooz

I would expect pasted items to go to the selected tracks, that's one job of something being selected. Why to use another slightly different but almost the same concept of "last touched track" to be a target for pasting? This is soo confusing and always surprises me. Luckily there's undo but 3 seconds of life each time are not gonna roll back and creative suffers.

This new thing of "last touched track indicator" just makes things even more confusing.



EDIT: Note on UX again:
There is this recent story:
1) the guy criticises Musescore big time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hZxo96x48A
2) Musescore hires him as a chief designer
3) Musescore gets better with so great plans for the next version https://musescore.org/en/MuseScore4

Thank you ! Yeah this little things are nasty! UX is a huge thing. And the hundreds of modifiers sharing the same icon is a good example of what should not happen too. Edit: and the never wanted AI layers .. time spent on UX won't really shine as features but is a tremendous gift for users.

Maybe somehow we could try to make a thread about the most need and obvious UX enhancements which are missing

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by ramses

That's no good. Track selection tint needs to stay with track selection. I don't particularly like the idea of confusing track selection and cursor, seems limiting and unnecessary. Keep them separate, they are not the same thing at all.

I kind of agree...

I envisioned 2 different things, related and equally separately important.

1. Any TCP that is tinted should tint the track background as well.
If the TCP is tinted, the track data is relevant as well - whether it's the currently selected track, or a group of selected tracks - if TCP is tinted then tint the whole track bg.

2. The "paste location" cursor, aka the intersection of the Edit Ruler and the Currently Selected Track - be blinking/tinted ever so slightly. Not the entire ruler. Not as a replacement for the ruler. Not a thicker cursor. Literally just the track-height portion of the ruler glowing slightly.



Thoughts?

[deeb]

Originally Posted by ferropop

I kind of agree...

I envisioned 2 different things, related and equally separately important.

1. Any TCP that is tinted should tint the track background as well.
If the TCP is tinted, the track data is relevant as well - whether it's the currently selected track, or a group of selected tracks - if TCP is tinted then tint the whole track bg.

2. The "paste location" cursor, aka the intersection of the Edit Ruler and the Currently Selected Track - be blinking/tinted ever so slightly. Not the entire ruler. Not as a replacement for the ruler. Not a thicker cursor. Literally just the track-height portion of the ruler glowing slightly.



Thoughts?

Is just my opinion but selected track background is just that: background. How about when there is no background? Like big items or zommed?

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by deeb

Is just my opinion but selected track background is just that: background. How about when there is no background? Like big items or zommed?

Deeb I agree, I think the whole thing being tinted (items and bg) is a good idea, but there was lots of pushback in the other thread haha.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by ferropop

I kind of agree...

I envisioned 2 different things, related and equally separately important.

1. Any TCP that is tinted should tint the track background as well.
If the TCP is tinted, the track data is relevant as well - whether it's the currently selected track, or a group of selected tracks - if TCP is tinted then tint the whole track bg.

2. The "paste location" cursor, aka the intersection of the Edit Ruler and the Currently Selected Track - be blinking/tinted ever so slightly. Not the entire ruler. Not as a replacement for the ruler. Not a thicker cursor. Literally just the track-height portion of the ruler glowing slightly.



Thoughts?

How did you get the track numbers on the right and those cool folder triangles on the left ? Looks super !

[n997]

Originally Posted by ferropop

1. Any TCP that is tinted should tint the track background as well.
If the TCP is tinted, the track data is relevant as well - whether it's the currently selected track, or a group of selected tracks - if TCP is tinted then tint the whole track bg.

Agreed 100% - and with option to choose whether tint applies to track/lane backgrounds only, or items as well.

Originally Posted by ferropop

2. The "paste location" cursor, aka the intersection of the Edit Ruler and the Currently Selected Track - be blinking/tinted ever so slightly.

That is already possible by editing cursor_seltrack.png, at least if you're OK with that intersection being a non-blinking solid color.


Personally, with my worsening eyesight, I find the thicker "paste cursor" very helpful. So I very much wish to retain the option to use cursor_seltrack.png for that.

Currently I use cursor_seltrack.png for both a thick cursor and the track highlighting hack. Obviously I hope for a proper, refined highlighting functionality for selected tracks and automation lanes, but for now even the "cursor-as-track-highlight" hack noticeably increases usability for me.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by n997

Agreed 100% - and with option to choose whether tint applies to track/lane backgrounds only, or items as well.



That is already possible by editing cursor_seltrack.png, at least if you're OK with that intersection being a non-blinking solid color.


Personally, with my worsening eyesight, I find the thicker "paste cursor" very helpful. So I very much wish to retain the option to use cursor_seltrack.png for that.

Currently I use cursor_seltrack.png for both a thick cursor and the track highlighting hack. Obviously I hope for a proper, refined highlighting functionality for selected tracks and automation lanes, but for now even the "cursor-as-track-highlight" hack noticeably increases usability for me.

Agreed, I do see a huge benefit to having Track Highlighting be its own thing though.

1. Temporarily engaged during a Media Item / Media Explorer / Area Selection drag. Any time things are being moved around, anchors are invaluable.
2. When selecting multiple tracks. If TCP is highlighted it makes sense for the whole track to be imho.

[deeb]

Outoff topic! @ferropop! I have noticed in your gif that vox track has some child folders with space echo , springs, halls etc, which seems like parallels/sends, and got curiouse what is what you call: intensity and throw?

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by deeb

Outoff topic! @ferropop! I have noticed in your gif that vox track has some child folders with space echo , springs, halls etc, which seems like parallels/sends, and got curiouse what is what you call: intensity and throw?

Deeb haha it's my default Pop template, and Yup they are all 100% wet sends.

Intensity is the Arturia Intensity reverb which is amazing for lush, long verb tails.

Throw is usually a long Valhalla Plate or RC24/48. I use it for single words, usually at the end of phrases. Just area select (!) a piece of a phrase and paste it down there, and you get a nice reverb that fills the empty space without clouding up the rest of the line.

Also the beauty of Reaper's Free Item Positioning allows you to put a bunch of (overlapping) pieces of stuff on those tracks. The whole thing is bussed, and I put a bit of (sidechained) compression on the entire FX bus as well, to dip all the effects slightly while the dry vocal is actually happening.

[musicbynumbers]

Hi Schwa/Justin.

I've started getting the below crash a lot in the last week and haven't changed anything plugin wise but I'm aware (from reading older posts) that the ntdll crashes are normally plugins using this dll but wanted to check if that was the case before going down the visual studio route as I've not done that for reaper yet and might need a guide on the process.

If this is definitely a plugin, let me know and I'll do the relevant tests to determine which one it is.

It feels like it happens whenever I move the play head to a new area and press play too quick, I then get a few seconds of stuck buffer before a full crash and have to get the below from the windows reliability app thingy.

Thanks!


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
Faulting Application Path: C:\Program Files\REAPER (x64)\reaper.exe

Problem signature
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: reaper.exe
Application Version: 65.230.33.84
Application Timestamp: 5f21c27d
Fault Module Name: ntdll.dll
Fault Module Version: 10.0.18362.815
Fault Module Timestamp: b29ecf52
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 00000000000460b4
OS Version: 10.0.18362.2.0.0.768.101
Locale ID: 2057
Additional Information 1: 435a
Additional Information 2: 435a83a6f16fc4c8fdbb830e0d8df64f
Additional Information 3: 7ed1
Additional Information 4: 7ed1ae85e3a729ca2ed473f675dd58fc

Extra information about the problem
Bucket ID: d48c2bbabc9d7a04d0a3a682f307e2bc (1198985007164023484)

[Justin]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Hi Schwa/Justin.

I've started getting the below crash a lot in the last week and haven't changed anything plugin wise but I'm aware (from reading older posts) that the ntdll crashes are normally plugins using this dll but wanted to check if that was the case before going down the visual studio route as I've not done that for reaper yet and might need a guide on the process.

If this is definitely a plugin, let me know and I'll do the relevant tests to determine which one it is.

It feels like it happens whenever I move the play head to a new area and press play too quick, I then get a few seconds of stuck buffer before a full crash and have to get the below from the windows reliability app thingy.

Thanks!


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
Faulting Application Path: C:\Program Files\REAPER (x64)\reaper.exe

Problem signature
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: reaper.exe
Application Version: 65.230.33.84
Application Timestamp: 5f21c27d
Fault Module Name: ntdll.dll
Fault Module Version: 10.0.18362.815
Fault Module Timestamp: b29ecf52
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 00000000000460b4
OS Version: 10.0.18362.2.0.0.768.101
Locale ID: 2057
Additional Information 1: 435a
Additional Information 2: 435a83a6f16fc4c8fdbb830e0d8df64f
Additional Information 3: 7ed1
Additional Information 4: 7ed1ae85e3a729ca2ed473f675dd58fc

Extra information about the problem
Bucket ID: d48c2bbabc9d7a04d0a3a682f307e2bc (1198985007164023484)

For crashes in ntdll.dll, we need a crash dump file (zipped, link emailed preferably)

[Win Conway]

[*]# Media explorer: tweak minimum sizes when in horizontal vs vertical modes [p=2324146]

Not sure if it is related, but the docked media explorer at thinnest vertically is still just swapping docker tab position (Horizontal to vertical) rather than hiding the tab entirely as per docker compact settings and all other docks.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by Justin

For crashes in ntdll.dll, we need a crash dump file (zipped, link emailed preferably)

Cool. Will do that. Thanks!

[_Stevie_]

@Justin:

speaking of crashes.

Were you able to track down this issue with my crash dump?
https://forums.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=231272

[ferropop]

Devs, still getting this weird AS Snapping (aka no snapping). Same as last pre, a newish problem.




There are no other media items other than the ones visible. Any ideas? It's making AS super unreliable at edges, and unusable.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Devs, still getting this weird AS Snapping (aka no snapping). Same as last pre, a newish problem.




There are no other media items other than the ones visible. Any ideas? It's making AS super unreliable at edges, and unusable.

How did you get the track numbers on the right and those cool folder triangles on the left ? Looks super !

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by Justin

For crashes in ntdll.dll, we need a crash dump file (zipped, link emailed preferably)

Emailed 3 crash dumps to "support@cockos.com" via a google drive link

Thanks!

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by Coachz

How did you get the track numbers on the right and those cool folder triangles on the left ? Looks super !

Hey! It's just the Default Reaper 5 theme, I didn't tweak anything at all. I really prefer it to the Default 6 as the track heights/widths are so much more sensible.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Deeb haha it's my default Pop template, and Yup they are all 100% wet sends. ...

Hehe Interesting! Thank you for sharing ! You know .. we here discuss the software but still I guess everyone passion is still music and audio, and seeing new words made me immediately curious , hehe !! Thank you

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Hey! It's just the Default Reaper 5 theme, I didn't tweak anything at all. I really prefer it to the Default 6 as the track heights/widths are so much more sensible.

Wow, you're right. hmmm.

[ramses]

Originally Posted by ferropop

I kind of agree...

I envisioned 2 different things, related and equally separately important.

1. Any TCP that is tinted should tint the track background as well.
If the TCP is tinted, the track data is relevant as well - whether it's the currently selected track, or a group of selected tracks - if TCP is tinted then tint the whole track bg.

I'm hesitant as to the "if" statement. I'd say keep the TCPs as is, and separate from selected track arrange background tinting/coloring. If the theme tints them, they're tinted. That's also possible to change by fiddling with the tcpbg.* images, no big deal.

2. The "paste location" cursor, aka the intersection of the Edit Ruler and the Currently Selected Track - be blinking/tinted ever so slightly. Not the entire ruler. Not as a replacement for the ruler. Not a thicker cursor. Literally just the track-height portion of the ruler glowing slightly.



Thoughts?

This should be possible with the cursor image file as is, right? Seems fine to me, if people want the cursor fatter, its possible,

[ramses]

Originally Posted by deeb

Is just my opinion but selected track background is just that: background. How about when there is no background? Like big items or zommed?

The beauty of having the arrange background for selected tracks stand out is that it becomes so easy to navigate projects visually. If you're zoomed in, you usually know where in the project you are, what tracks are selected and whatever. The arrange background tinting is more for clarity in large projects, for keeping track of what tracks are selected. Having to go all the way to the tcp and follow the (untinted/uncolored) arrange background is pretty visually and mentally taxing for many people. It just makes keeping track of selected tracks less of a hassle.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Devs, still getting this weird AS Snapping (aka no snapping). Same as last pre, a newish problem.

If I'm understanding correctly, that's not new behavior. If you move a media item around with the mouse it should behave the same way.

The "no snapping" zone there is caused by the interaction between the "snap distance" and "snap to grid at any distance" settings. It's complicated, but without that behavior, you can get extremely unpredictable snapping as you drag objects from one side to the other, as they can snap to media items (or the cursor or whatever) when they are very close, then as you continue moving the object may snap in the "wrong" direction if the nearest grid line is on the other side of the intermediate snap point.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by schwa

If I'm understanding correctly, that's not new behavior. If you move a media item around with the mouse it should behave the same way.

The "no snapping" zone there is caused by the interaction between the "snap distance" and "snap to grid at any distance" settings. It's complicated, but without that behavior, you can get extremely unpredictable snapping as you drag objects from one side to the other, as they can snap to media items (or the cursor or whatever) when they are very close, then as you continue moving the object may snap in the "wrong" direction if the nearest grid line is on the other side of the intermediate snap point.

Hi schwa,

Snap is set to Measures (1), and I just expected the Area Selection snap to adhere to that (and only that). If there's tiny items near the measure edge, this shouldn't get in the way of drawing a perfect x measures Area Selection.

The most common use for Area Selection will be for this use - quickly grab 4 bars (or whatever), and duplicate/delete etc. When trying to do this I've accidentally drawn slightly-too-small "4 bar" selections almost every single time.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Snap is set to Measures (1), and I just expected the Area Selection snap to adhere to that (and only that). If there's tiny items near the measure edge, this shouldn't get in the way of drawing a perfect x measures Area Selection.

OK, then disable "snap media items to nearby media items" in the snap settings.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by schwa

OK, then disable "snap media items to nearby media items" in the snap settings.

That did it! I'm sorry, that was peskily hidden away...wasn't even aware this was set. Thanks again.

[ferropop]

Schwa here's the thing...

I had it set to "Snap to media items to nearby media items" with up to 0 tracks away.

This works great, makes media items On The Same Track snap to each other. Perfect.

Area Selection doesn't work this way, it behaves as if it's set to a non-zero number.

[ferropop]

Does that make sense?

1. I show it's set to Snap 0 tracks away, and demonstrate the items do behave that way.
2. I show that Area Selection does not follow it.
3. I turn off Snap to media items (as you suggested) and show that it does work.

[schwa]

It's not quite clear from the gif, what do you think the area selection is snapping to that it shouldn't? For an area selection "0 tracks" is interpreted as meaning any of the tracks included in the area selection.

[ferropop]

I think that's precisely the disconnect.

For media items, 0 tracks means "only on same track"
For area selections, 0 tracks means "all tracks in selection".

So it's impossible to get the behaviour of "snap only to media items on same track" together with "snap area selection only to grid".

[ferropop]

...should Area Selection maybe get its own column in the Snap/Grid Settings menu matrix?

[schwa]

Yes, eventually.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by schwa

Yes, eventually.

Maybe a new button on main toolbar should appear for AS options? It would make it easier to control all the parameters.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by ramses

The beauty of having the arrange background for selected tracks stand out is that it becomes so easy to navigate projects visually. If you're zoomed in, you usually know where in the project you are, what tracks are selected and whatever. The arrange background tinting is more for clarity in large projects, for keeping track of what tracks are selected. Having to go all the way to the tcp and follow the (untinted/uncolored) arrange background is pretty visually and mentally taxing for many people. It just makes keeping track of selected tracks less of a hassle.

I have nothing against the background colours on the project , what I miss is a way to visualize which track is selected more quickly: when zoomed vertically or horizontally or there is no background space on the project. Selected track color contrast dont seem enough for me, probably because I tend to use colored tracks ...

[ramses]

Originally Posted by deeb

I have nothing against the background colours on the project , what I miss is a way to visualize which track is selected more quickly: when zoomed vertically or horizontally or there is no background space on the project. Selected track color contrast dont seem enough for me, probably because I tend to use colored tracks ...

Agree, it could be an issue. So. How about a combination of 1. track arrange coloring/inting AND 2. coloring/tinting of the arrange track separator lines (or what they're called...) for selected tracks, preferably optional. That would work right?