Gain Staging - Fader Level - Initial Volume

[mafg1953]

Hi,

I’m new to all this and am starting off with mixing multi-tracks that are available and free on various websites. I want to make sure that I’m starting at the right point so that my next steps won’t need to be re-done.

I understand that there needs to be headroom in your mix when you are finished and that when working with the faders, it’s best to work with them in the single digit range (as it’s more accurate) and that an initial setting for the faders of -6dB is a good starting point. I’m not sure exactly what that means and was wondering if anyone can explain/clarify.

When I pull my audio files in, the faders are at 0. Do I need to pull them all down to say -6, and then use the item volume controls to get the audio back up to its original volume?

Maybe I’m overthinking this.

Thanks,

Mike

[serr]

Set the volume control on your monitor system for listening to music that is not volume war hyped. Then your ears will tell you when something is too loud before a red light lights up. You can be intuitive.

"Proper" levels are -16 to -12 LUFS
Volume war CDs can be as blasted out as -7 LUFS
(Mp3s are always made from the hyped CD copy.)

Setting your volume for volume war CD listening would make it pretty confusing to mix! It might be like trying to create a thumbnail size artwork directly at thumbnail size initially.

You can get fancy with calibrations and there's more to talk about but this will get you matter of fact started.

[DVDdoug]

I understand that there needs to be headroom in your mix when you are finished

Headroom is a funny thing... Headroom (mostly*) is for "unexpected" peaks. If you don't use the headroom you didn't really need it and if you use it then it's no longer headroom...

Nothing bad happens when you get close to 0dB but you can get clipping (distortion) if you try to go over 0dB.

You don't really need headroom when you're "finished". Most commercial recordings are normalized for 0dB peaks or some people normalize to around -1dB. MP3s often go slightly over 0dB... The lossy nature of MP3 makes some peaks higher and some lower. If you start with a 0dB master, the MP3 often goes over 0dB. (MP3s can go over 0dB without clipping, but you'll clip your DAC if you play it at "full digital volume".)

REAPER (like most audio software) uses floating-point internally so for all practical purposes it has no upper (or lower) limits and it won't clip. However, your ADC (recording), DAC (playback), regular (integer) WAV files, and audio CDs are hard-limited to 0dB.

The most important thing is to avoid clipping during recording because the damage is permanent. The amount of headroom you need depends on how predictable your levels are... Vocals and most acoustic instruments are very dynamic and unpredictable so you need lots of headroom. With saturated-overdriven guitar you can get-by with less headroom. Or, if you are digitizing old analog recordings the levels are also more predictable than "live" recording.

You almost can't have too-much headroom so your recording levels aren't critical as long as you avoid clipping.

and that when working with the faders, it’s best to work with them in the single digit range (as it’s more accurate) and that an initial setting for the faders of -6dB is a good starting point. I’m not sure exactly what that means and was wondering if anyone can explain/clarify.

The fader position isn't important. It's the actual levels (especially the master level) that are important, and more-importantly the sound of the overall mix.

Note that mixing is done by summation. If you mix a copy of a file/track with itself (with no adjustment) you'll double the level (+6dB). That's basically "worst case" because you don't normally mix identical tracks and the peaks don't line-up perfectly.

And of course effects can change the levels. The peak mix-level isn't perfectly-predictable (unless you use a limiter, and that's how some people handle it.)

IMO the easiest way to handle a mix is by rendering to floating-point WAV (which can go over 0dB). Then you can re-open the mix and normalize as a separate mastering step. But, you should still try for "reasonable" levels because you don't want to clip the DAC while monitoring.

Or, you can leave plenty of headroom, render to 24-bit, and again re-open and normalize/master to bring-up the levels.




* Some people worry about "inter-sample overs". There is no actual inter-sample digital data but the reconstructed analog can go slightly higher than the actual peaks and/or you can get slightly higher peaks if you re-sample.

[spantini]

This may be helpful.

https://www.reaper.fm/videos.php#5efick6yJA4

[mafg1953]

Thanks for the feedback - I really appreciate it. This has been very helpful!

[vgmrmojo]

Put all your faders at-12 while creating your song. Before you render it listen to it and set the faders so each track sounds the way you want it to sound in loudness. The master should be at 0 db all the time. Do not let the song go above 0 on the master ever. It is that simple.

[mafg1953]

Originally Posted by vgmrmojo

Put all your faders at-12 while creating your song. Before you render it listen to it and set the faders so each track sounds the way you want it to sound in loudness. The master should be at 0 db all the time. Do not let the song go above 0 on the master ever. It is that simple.

Thanks for the feedback!

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by vgmrmojo

Put all your faders at-12 while creating your song.

I do this too and it works well. You can also set it as default for new tracks in prefs / project / track/send defaults

[Pashkuli]

'Gain staging' as a term has been inherited in DAWs by convenience, although its application is quite different in both worlds Analogue vs Digital.

Unfortunately it has been inherited so deeply, it is almost impossible to turn over people's mind into something more distinguishable sucha as 'gain d-staging' (for gain structure and meaningful meter levels in the DAW) as a common sense.

Please, see the video bellow regarding Gain Staging in Analogue or using external equipment.

Remember:
Gain concerns the incoming\input signal (what is coming in)
Volume concerns the outgoing\output signal (what is coming out)

Also, notice that in the simple (cheap) analogue (even digital) hardware mixers, the faders (responsible for the volume = output of the signal) must have meaningful relative position to what would be the levels of the signal (see the video bellow for those clarifications).

With all that said, Gain staging and Gain D-staging are important.

Gain staging is important about your healthy signal (less noise, more useful music\signal flow).

Gain D-staging is important about your meters in the DAW to make the most common sense and to give you warnings about potential clipping Peaks of the signal, regardless of the fact that modern DAWs can process signals with crazy huge dB\bit range as internal floating point processing.


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* pictures taken from "Sound On Sound" magazine, August 2021
courtesy of Hofa College

[White Tie]

Stop confusing people with your nonsense. What you are saying is completely unrelated to the OP's question. I don't know why you feel the need to keep crashing threads to spread this stuff, but I'm getting pretty sure you're doing it to start arguments. And if so, you need to stop that.

[White Tie]

Originally Posted by mafg1953

Maybe I’m overthinking this.

Quite so. Don't worry about it.

[Pashkuli]

Originally Posted by White Tie

Stop confusing people with your nonsense.

It is not to confuse people. It is about proper knowledge, to make decisions more confident and wise.

Also, I think Hofa College and Hofa Plugins know it as well (their short article in "Sound On Sound").

White Tie, just chill and enjoy the knowledge.

[White Tie]

You post a lot of things from a lot of sources, you do not understand them. You are very misinformed about audio engineering, which is your problem and I don't care, but when you choose to spread misinformation to new people in service of your delusional cosplaying of 'person who know what he's talking about' you do harm. And that is not acceptable.

Do not smiley face at me.