Old 03-23-2019, 10:35 AM   #1
MaXyM
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Default idxbg v s namebg

Hello
I noticed that track color is applied different way to those backgrounds. Using the same source png for both backgrounds, for both files, the result is way different.

Is it known issue? Or am I doing something wrong?


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Old 03-23-2019, 10:47 AM   #2
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Not sure if this is any help... Do you have 'Set track label background to custom track colors' selected in REAPER preferences?

(Options > Preferences > Track control panel settings)
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Old 03-23-2019, 10:55 AM   #3
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Yes I have. Without it track label wouldn't be coloured at all, appearing the same way as track idx. You can see on image that track label has coloured background in both: tcp and mcp.
Indeed it looks like track color is not applied to track idx
I can't believe it is expected behaviour, not rised by themers. So I'm still thinking it's my fault.

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Old 03-23-2019, 11:01 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
Yes I have. Without it track label wouldn't be coloured at all, appearing the same way as track idx. Indeed it looks like track color is not applied to track idx

Make those backgrounds like the TCP background for example (some level of transparency) and you can control how much of the chosen track color gets through to the idx and namebg.

*Are you editing a V5 theme?
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:03 AM   #5
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NRG, thanx for interactive responses, but mcp_idxbg.png and tcp_idxbg.png are copies of respective namebg pngs (I mentioned it in my first post). Therefore I would expect the same colors of name and idx backgrounds. But those are not.

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Old 03-23-2019, 11:06 AM   #6
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*Are you editing a V5 theme?
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:15 AM   #7
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Yes.
It's one of Janes's recent themes.
I'm going through themes from other authors, and I found none which would use *idxbg.png to *add* track color over TCP/MCP. So far I found it's used:
- with 100% transparency
- to dim color using semi transparency
- found 1 theme where idxbg covers whole TCP having 100% transparency only over track number (resulting with something I want to achive). Which would kinda confirm my finding.

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Old 03-23-2019, 11:34 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
Yes.
It's one of Janes's recent themes.
I'm going through themes from other authors, and I found none which would use *idxbg.png to *add* track color over TCP/MCP. So far I found it's used:
- with 100% transparency
- to dim color using semi transparency
- found 1 theme where idxbg covers whole TCP having 100% transparency only over track number (resulting with something I want to achive). Which would kinda confirm my finding.

I downloaded JanneVTinted and it is showing a little color in the idx field of the TCP background. Did you mess with that area on the tcp_bg.png / tcp_bgsel.png and make the color solid? On Janne's theme (unpacked) I'm seeing RGB 71 71 71 / Opacity - Alpha 232 on that field of the tcp_bg.png / tcp_bgsel.png.



On your image I'm seeing a solid color of RGB 65 65 65 / Opacity - Alpha 255 in that area of the TCP background...
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:47 AM   #9
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It seems you have 'Set track label background to custom track colors' option disabled, don't you?
Otherwise track names would be coloured as on my screenshot in OP.

And yes, idxbg applies transparency, but track color is not applied to this texture. It's only overlaying the TCP/MCP with some transparency and own color. So it can only dim color of the background. It cannot show track color by itself like track name with 'Set track label background to custom track colors' enabled.

Simply, if tcp_bg dimms track color, you cannot show 'clean' track color in idxbg, while it's possible in namebg. I was hoping there is some switch to enable it.

At this point I can see, it's logical that 'Set track label background to custom track colors' is applied to track name only, because of it's name. Pitty, there is no similar option for track idx.

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Old 03-23-2019, 12:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
It seems you have 'Set track label background to custom track colors' option disabled, don't you?
Otherwise track names would be coloured as on my screenshot in OP.

And yes, idxbg applies transparency, but track color is not applied to this texture. It's only overlaying the TCP/MCP with some transparency and own color. So it can only dim color of the background. It cannot show track color by itself like track name with 'Set track label background to custom track colors' enabled.

At this point I can see, it's logical that 'Set track label background to custom track colors' is applied to track name only, because of it's name. Pitty, there is no similar option for track idx.
Yes, I disabled that option but if I want color to show thru the track name background I could make it semi-transparent. Like for example in my theme look at the recinput background / pan / width background / outline and fill of elements (recarm / MSAP, etc...). I could make the name background show color the same way...



*Yes, when you were talking idx I was thinking of tcp background area where the idx is displayed...
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:22 PM   #11
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Maybe someone will come along with a clever solution for you...
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:34 PM   #12
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I updated image in OP, to make the issue more clear.
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Old 03-23-2019, 04:52 PM   #13
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Because only track label can be colored, index not. Usually users make index background transparent or partialy transparent so track color can pass through.
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Old 03-23-2019, 06:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strachupl View Post
Because only track label can be colored, index not. Usually users make index background transparent or partialy transparent so track color can pass through.
Yeah, I'm afraid so.
Unfortunately, this way makes impossible to render original color set by a user, once the color is modified by [mcp/tcp]_bg.png (which usually is the case)
I was hoping it's possible to change idxbg rendering mode.
Thaks for answers.
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Old 03-24-2019, 05:54 AM   #15
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What you are seeing is what happens if you mix the Legacy and V5 colouring. READ THIS for more on them.

If you remove 'tinttcp 0' from a V5 theme, it will allow the user to tick the preferences boxes they shouldn't which will have no effect, some effect or an unpredictable effect, depending on your element transparency.

I understand that there is advice out there to do this, in the mistaken belief that it will 'restore' the legacy functionality to V5 themes. And please, feel free to try. But it won't, it'll do weird things because you're not supposed to do that. If you like what you see, then ...hey... groovy But its an unintended and unsupported side effect; you're supposed to pick either V5 or Legacy colouring.
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Old 03-24-2019, 07:18 AM   #16
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Thanx White Tie for contribution.
The theme I'm working on contains no 'tinttcp'.
tinttcp 0 makes the theme not being coloured at all. tinttcp 666 (is it default for V5?) makes it coloured as expected but track label is no longer coloured ('Set track label background to custom track colors' option doesn't work, which is probably V5 proper approach).

I admit we should chose 'proper V5 approach'; unfortunately, once track color is modified by panel background (alpha+color), no other element can show the original color (at least to my current knowledge). But maybe there is an option to tint element by a track color, instead of deriving the color from element underneath?

I'm trying to do my best to mimic original theme (JaneV2Tinted).
I want to achieve "clear" track color for track id background, while panel color is modified by _bg texture at the same time.
As I mentioned it's possible for track name with the (legacy) option enabled but not for track id.[/B] This is what I'm walking around.

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Old 03-24-2019, 09:03 AM   #17
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is this what you are trying to achieve or do you want exactly the same color as the track label?

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Old 03-24-2019, 09:22 AM   #18
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The best result would be to achieve the same color for both. But I suspect, once possible for index, then possible for name too (ie by disabling colouring option mentioned in previous posts).

I don't know what you are going to propose, but I know that original Jane's theme (as well as a lot others) uses reserved part of tcp_bg to achieve it. This approach is not applicable for my theme because areas marked by pink lines doesn't scale with global_scale (yeah.. I'm still working on a scalable theme and I'm succeeded almost I didn't want to mention that to not drift the discussion away)

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Old 03-24-2019, 09:40 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
The best result would be to achieve the same color for both. But I suspect, once possible for index, then possible for name too (ie by disabling colouring option mentioned in previous posts).
not without pink lines. these are needed to define the transparent areas required to achieve this effect.
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Old 03-24-2019, 09:45 AM   #20
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Pity but yeah. Coincidence of a bug (IMO) and limited functionality makes impossible to create 100% scalable themes.

Thanks for confirmation that there is no magic switch to apply track color to other background than panel one's (in contrary to deriving it from panel background texture). Maybe in v6.

Thank you for answers.

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Old 03-27-2019, 02:08 AM   #21
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Finally I found the solution
WALTER allows to apply custom track color directly to a background element color (instead of deriving color from panel background).

Out of curiosity, who did know about existence of trackcolor_r/g/b constants?

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Old 03-27-2019, 02:14 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
Finally I found the solution
WALTER allows to apply custom track color directly to the element color (instead of deriving color from panel background).

Out of curiosity, who did know about existence of trackcolor_r/g/b constants?
not familiar with this.
can you post an example of the code?
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Old 03-27-2019, 02:40 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucas_LCS View Post
not familiar with this.
can you post an example of the code?
Yeah.. I found it in documentation just before submiting FR for this
Writing down from memory:
Quote:
set tcp.volume.label.color [250 250 250 . trackcolor_r trackcolor_g trackcolor_b .]
please note dots which derives default transparency. You can put transparency value instead (0-255 range I believe)

BTW Interesting is, that applying color to a background of track name (and the only this one) might be disabled by preferences, unchecking 'Set track label background to custom track colors' option. But... if you make this option inactive using WALTER's tinttcp command (which, as far I understand is proper approach for modern v5 themes) then the color is not being applied the same way as in case od disabled option. Seems to me like a bug, especially in context that it works this way only for the only one element

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Old 03-27-2019, 04:03 AM   #24
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I see how this applies to text (track label, IDX, Vol and Pan labels), but I don't see how this applies to making the background element change color.
How can this be used to change the IDX or label backgrounds to a different color, which seemed to be your goal earlier?
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Old 03-27-2019, 05:02 AM   #25
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Without use of trackcolor_r/g/b constants passed to background color in WALTER, "in general" you cannot give an element other than panel packground the track color. I wrote "in general" because there are corner cases where it's possible.

My goal was to set idx label to track color which was impossible since background was affecting the color appearance. Right now, I can put idx anywhere on panel, even somewhere in the middle, where pink areas don't reach, and set it;s background to original custom track color set by a user.

Further I can use this feature, to achieve what is presented in post #17 on screenshot. But with using no pink lines. I'm really happy about this, 'cause it makes possible to create fully scaled*) Jane's theme

*) there are still some issues, like toolbars, fonts and volume sliders being not affected by global_scale. I'm going to publish details together with the theme
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Old 03-27-2019, 05:27 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
Without use of trackcolor_r/g/b constants passed to background color in WALTER, "in general" you cannot give an element other than panel packground the track color. I wrote "in general" because there are corner cases where it's possible.

My goal was to set idx label to track color which was impossible since background was affecting the color appearance.
apologies, I'm still not understanding.
The code you posted appears to only affect the IDX text, not the IDX background.
How are you able to color the background along with the text?
Also, can you post a screenshot of the working solution?

BTW it's 'Janne' not 'Jane'
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Old 03-27-2019, 05:34 AM   #27
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From documentation:

Code:
tcp.volume.label.color: 
  • Volume readout text colors First four coordinates: foreground Second four coordinates: background
Second four arguments are background color.
In posted example:
Code:
set tcp.volume.label.color [250 250 250 . trackcolor_r trackcolor_g trackcolor_b .]
text is coloured by RGB(250,250,250,default_alpha) while it's background is set to color represented by trackcolor_r/g/b constants

Right now I'm at work. I'll attach the screenshot later on, at night (CET) likely. I'm also ready do publish scalable modification of Janne's theme (sorry for mistake in the name). I have to clean files up and make a package. Still not decided to include global_scale into rtconfig, since it makes not possible to set scale by UI scale in Preferences. And yes, i'm aware all those things are experimental. So my theme is

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Old 03-27-2019, 05:35 AM   #28
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All text fields have coloured backgrounds, which are WALTERable. They will only be shown if you have set them to a value and have not provided the appropriate background image. The images override the colour boxes.

The current HiDPI implementation is experimental. Your suggestion that image areas inside yellow lines should scale with global scale is not one that I would support, is a misunderstanding of the intent and is not a bug.
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Old 03-27-2019, 05:55 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
All text fields have coloured backgrounds, which are WALTERable. They will only be shown if you have set them to a value and have not provided the appropriate background image. The images override the colour boxes..
The marked statement is not true. You can apply background color with background image provided. The color and alpha of the image affects final appearance of the background. I'm 100% confident about this


IMO subject below does worth a dedicated topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
The current HiDPI implementation is experimental. Your suggestion that image areas inside yellow lines should scale with global scale is not one that I would support, is a misunderstanding of the intent and is not a bug.
Please give me a case when it makes no sense*), plz.
Here are my reasons:

1. Lets consider theme created for 100% scale. An element border is 1px wide. Now, try to make the same looking theme for Retina displays (200%). To make the appearance the same, the border have to be 2px wide. It's impossible to achieve with pink lines, which is an issue when when pink lines are mainly used to limit borders from being stretched.

2. Also there is discrepancy between elements. Lets say, your design contain various elements including round (knobs) and rectangle shaped. All by design has 1px wide border. You cannot limit stretching of borders of rounded elements. Not scalling of pink/yellow lines makes elements looks different: borders of rounded elements are scalled, while borders of rectangle elements aren't.

3. About yellow lines. Why are you saying, margin or glow created with use of yellow lines should not scale with DPI? Why margin/glow to element size ratio should be lower for higher DPI? Example:

Scale 100%
Element: 10x10 px
Glow: 5px wide

Scale: 200%
Element: 20x20 px
Glow: 5px wide

It doesn't make sense

4. If it stay like you say, it will be never possible to create themes working/looking well independently to DPI. It's kinda proof by contradiction. But today, I can see a lot of beautiful (and maybe functional) themes which are useless for other DPI than the one which theme has been created for.

IMO stretching and scaling are completely different features. pink/yellow lines are designed to limit stretching of selected areas. But there is no reason to not apply higher resolution over those areas. This fact is supported by a fact that pink/yellow lines have been invented long before UI scaling. No reason to say, those features are somehow connected. These are not IMO. Scaling is only about final resolution of displaying device. Shouldn't be affected and should not affect GUI layout.

*) in fact I can see only one valid reason: to make let's say border as thin as possible regardless available DPI. But then appearance in 100% and 200% DPI will differ. It might be intentional, but it's rather corner case. So, it might be covered by another mask. BTW I'm really missing ability to use pink line somewhere between corners, ie to limit stretching of a pattern somewhere in a middle of a background.

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Old 03-27-2019, 07:09 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
The marked statement is not true. You can apply background color with background image provided. The color and alpha of the image affects final appearance of the background. I'm 100% confident about this
Well, I'm astonished. Care to share some pics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
...Global Scale stuff...
Stop using Global Scale. I don't know for sure what the final forum of Reaper's HiDPI functionality will be (again, this is all experimental. There's no reason believe Global Scaled will even be in there.) but I can guarantee it won't be like what you're describing. There is no acceptable shortcut to theme makers creating new bitmap assets for HiDPI themes. If the functionality you want were to be added, the outcome would look dreadful.
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Old 03-27-2019, 07:26 AM   #31
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[QUOTE=White Tie;2113913]Well, I'm astonished. Care to share some pics?

I will. I have to back home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Stop using Global Scale.
Say it to all theme makers which deliver HighDPI themes
TBH, knot knowing the delivery date of final solution supporting HighDPI, it's hard to forget about it. I guess global_scale will be on the table until replaced by more flexible solution (and I believe it will be supported as long as V5 themes)


Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
There is no acceptable shortcut to theme makers creating new bitmap assets for HiDPI themes. If the functionality you want were to be added, the outcome would look dreadful.
There is: to provide bitmaps prepared for 200% DPI. I'm going to prove that with my theme prepared this way and still looking well in 130% scale (my chosen scale used in Reaper). You can also take my work as an experiment. I'm not forcing anybody to create scalable themes. But I'm sure this is how it should work in perfect word. I'm sure also, High DPI users are in minority today, so there is no enough demand. If you were HiDPI user, you will starving for all those themes you cannot use. Then you would have more positive attitude to my activities

I admit, bitmaps without scaling always look better/sharper. But we have to agree that there is no other option today. The only option is to not use particular theme at all. But it doesn't sound encouraging.

I could imagine a future: themes will be vector based supporting bitmaps as for backgrounds/patterns. It would be super-f*in-tastic. But its not going to happen today or tomorrow.

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Old 03-27-2019, 03:29 PM   #32
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Interesting.
I understood this to be applied to what can be described as a 'drop shadow' of the text (background) and not coloring the entire background or 'label'.
I tend to remove this to make the text cleaner.

I tried it just now on a version 5 theme without using the tinttcp or the trackcolor_valid statements.
I used the yellow lines to define a border and left the label itself empty inside the track, Vol and Pan labels.
I made a dark gray/almost black image for the IDX and then adjusted it to about 75% transparent.
I this was done in Gimp.

it looks like this without tcp_background transparency:


and this with some tcp_background transparency:


as you can see from the above, the transparency of the TCP_BG image affects the color in both cases, but still gives a way to define a consistent color for all labels
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Old 03-27-2019, 05:12 PM   #33
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It seems it depends on intensity of colours
Here is example from Janne's theme:



I made special background for pan width label. Its sections are marked by letters A to D with colors as follows (alpha is from range 0-255):

A: RGBA(172,172,172,100)
B: RGBA(48,48,48,100)
C: RGBA(172,172,172,39)
D: RGBA(48,48,48,39)

Yellow rectangle on the right, is fragment of colour picker for custom track color. This color is RGB(255,255,6).

As you can see none combination of label's background color/alpha makes the result any close to the original color.
On the other hand, area under track idx and volume meter is done by idx background with track color applied with WALTER command. I found it quite successful.

@White Tie: I'm sure you noticed 2 different shades of the color in mentioned area under idx/meter. It's achieved by using background texture together with background color set in WALTER.

BTW here is a screenshot of the theme. All bitmaps are repainted to 200% resolution, while theme is running with 1.3 global scale. You can judge the quality loss by downscaling (click for original size). Of course all elements perfectly match each other regardless chosen selected scale. with 1.0 it looks as original Janne's theme (except of arrange area I experimentally recoloured to dark)


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Old 03-28-2019, 01:29 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucas_LCS View Post
Interesting.
I tried it just now on a version 5 theme without using the tinttcp or the trackcolor_valid statements.
trackcolor_valid isn't particularly relevant unless you make it so in your WALTER.

Mixing V5 and Legacy colouring methods will indeed cause things like this, but that's unintended behaviour. You still get the legacy colour fill, but it composites using the tint strength over the colour also being shown through (possibly several layers of) transparency. So such a technique would combine needing the rigour required with V5 method (setting up your transparencies) with also sharing all of the annoying limitations and colour-spamming of the legacy method. Meh, right?

By all means experiment with this if you're having fun, but I would advise against using it in a release theme because if an unintended side-effect like this were to change in a future Reaper version, it would break your theme and it wouldn't be a bug; it would be 100% your fault

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
The marked statement is not true. You can apply background color with background image provided. The color and alpha of the image affects final appearance of the background. I'm 100% confident about this
It seems to me you are doing the same thing as lucas_LCS, with the key difference that you don't even realise it. Please consider, when learning theming, not doing so by modding an existing theme. It too often leads to misunderstandings, as I suspect it has done here.

If you are able to show a combination of a *label.color [. . . . x x x x] and *bg.png colouring on the same element with V5 coloring then you have stumbled onto something very exciting that we would all be very eager to use. However ...if you can't, or if you are just confusing this with mixed color method weirdness, please for god's sake just say so. I can't waste time on this, and its important that this forum doesn't become a source of misinformation.
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Old 03-28-2019, 03:04 AM   #35
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I would expect you to be thankful for digging in, solving issues which are real for users (some of us at least). Instead you attacking me and it's you who shares misinformation. Let me quote you again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
All text fields have coloured backgrounds, which are WALTERable. They will only be shown if you have set them to a value and have not provided the appropriate background image
This statement is literally false.Text fields have WALTERable coloured backgrounds regardless existence of appropriate texture. Moreover this texture can alter appearance of the background color provided in WALTER.
You asked for a screenshot. I have provided one. But you still trying to convince us it's not true?
At the end you can check my theme after I push it out

Yet one more thing. You are constantly repeating what to not use even if it's regular feature of current theming engine. It's like a mantra about new version of Reaper going to scratch out all existing themes. I can almost ensure you, that v5 themes will work unaffected for a long time. It's because new theming will require different value for version tag. For sake of number of v5 themes, Reaper has to support them all. I cannot imagine devs could afford braking hundreds of themes. Dropping support of older themes sounds more reasonable though.

BTW I'm not a theme maker (meaning a graphics artist). I'm a programmer. Therefore while I cannot create new design from scratch I have no problem to understand the code icl WALTER and it's features. I understand and agree with suggestion to start theming from very simplistic theme built from scratch. I don't follow this suggestion because I'm not ambitious enough to create my own theme. I just want to make particular theme working for me and for others who have similar issues when using Reaper on 4K/Retina monitors.
Proving you that scalable themes might exists, or proving myself that they cannot due to Reaper limitation is just a side-exercise.

Last edited by MaXyM; 03-28-2019 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 03-28-2019, 06:39 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
You asked for a screenshot. I have provided one.
I didn't find your screenshot informative, but having dug into this further I see that you are right, I apologise for being incorrect and I'm sorry that you feel attacked.

I had misremembered why people don't generally use this feature; not because it isn't there, but because it composites in the wrong order. If that doesn't bother you, by all means make use of it.

On the subject of not using unintentional or experimental functionality : what I describe has a long history of happening. A new functionality might just wipe out the loophole you were using. It might not. There's no way to say, and there would be no warning except the one I am giving you now.
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Old 03-28-2019, 09:45 AM   #37
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Mine is not 'spamming' color over everything like version 4 does.
Color is only being shown through items that have enough transparency to allow it to been seen.
The color is underneath, not on top like version 4.

regardless of whether transparency is used or not, TINTTCP '0' removes color from everything and grays out the boxes in OPTIONS/PREFERENCES.
This prevents the end user from using color on the tracks.
using transparencies and TINTTCP 1-3 are usuable options from what I've seen so far, but I don't see the why it would be needed if the check boxes are available.


I am still not understanding what TRACKCOLOR_VALID is supposed to do.
Is this detailed somewhere?
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:22 AM   #38
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From my understanding, it provides information that custom color is or isn't set for particular track.
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Old 04-02-2019, 01:58 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucas_LCS View Post
Mine is not 'spamming' color over everything like version 4 does.
Color is only being shown through items that have enough transparency to allow it to been seen.
The color is underneath, not on top like version 4.

regardless of whether transparency is used or not, TINTTCP '0' removes color from everything and grays out the boxes in OPTIONS/PREFERENCES.
This prevents the end user from using color on the tracks.
using transparencies and TINTTCP 1-3 are usuable options from what I've seen so far, but I don't see the why it would be needed if the check boxes are available.


I am still not understanding what TRACKCOLOR_VALID is supposed to do.
Is this detailed somewhere?
trackcolor_valid==1 when track have custom color set by user.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:32 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strachupl View Post
trackcolor_valid==1 when track have custom color set by user.
is there only an ON/OFF state for this then?
So this just allows color to be used on that layout if the user designates a color for it?
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