Old 06-28-2022, 07:08 AM   #1
Frank Lee Scarlett
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Default Is this any good? I've lost perspective...

So, one listen the vocals seem too loud. Later in the day, I listen and they seem buried. Same with the drums.

So, basically, I've lost objectivity and don't know if my levels are all over the place.

I know the best thing to do would be to not listen to it for about a month and come back and listen with fresh ears....But that's where you guys come in.

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Old 06-28-2022, 07:57 AM   #2
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Cool tune!
I think the levels are ok.
The guitar licks during the lead vocal, can distract. Maybe put it back in the soundscape?
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Old 06-28-2022, 07:59 AM   #3
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Cool tune!
I think the levels are ok.
The guitar licks during the lead vocal, can distract. Maybe put it back in the soundscape?
Thanx a lot!

You mean those sort of sitar-ish picking guitar notes in the right speaker, I'm guessing? Good ear. They CAN be distracting. I'll check that out and probably bring it down a bit. Thanx man!
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Old 06-28-2022, 08:02 AM   #4
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Hi Frank, regarding my musically biased objectivity and your stated concerns, I found the vocals just a bit too loud and the drums a bit too quiet. Maybe bring up the drums and that alone would help the vocal sit better in the mix. To be honest, I only listened through my MS Surface so others may have a finer perspective.

And I wholeheartedly agree with the fresh ears approach because it is ultimately your song/your decision.
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Old 06-28-2022, 08:12 AM   #5
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I also struggled with getting vocals the right relative volume to the mix. What I do is

1. Create a folder containing the vocals (to include backup vocals), and create folders for each group of instruments such as Piano, Organ, Brass, Drums, Bass, Electric Guitars, Acoustic Guitars, Synths, etc. then,

2. I sidechain all instrument buses to the vocal bus on channels 3/4, and stick DynaRide2 on the vocal bus before any reverb but after compression and EQ, and on DynaRide2 I enable side-chaining on the Follow setting. I’ve found that an attack and release of 150ms is usually the right sweet spot which doesn’t accentuate sibilance too much.

3. Finally export everything but the vocals at -18 LUFS, then export the vocals at -18 LUFS.

4. Next, I import both tracks into a new project that I use for mastering. Having the vocal at -1dB in relation to the instruments is usually the perfect level. Exceptions are songs that only have, say, a single guitar, in which case having the vocal at +2dB is often the sweet spot. Another exception I’ve run into is jazz. Jazz usually sounds good with the vocal at -2 or -3 dB. Of course, these are just guidelines, but they’ll get you d-mn close!

I have created a template that I’ll share here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16WM...w?usp=drivesdk

I have to update it to the latest version I use but I’ll simply replace the project file on the Google drive so the link will still be valid.

Hope this helps!
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Old 06-28-2022, 08:19 AM   #6
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Hi Frank, regarding my musically biased objectivity and your stated concerns, I found the vocals just a bit too loud and the drums a bit too quiet. Maybe bring up the drums and that alone would help the vocal sit better in the mix. To be honest, I only listened through my MS Surface so others may have a finer perspective.

And I wholeheartedly agree with the fresh ears approach because it is ultimately your song/your decision.
Thanx alot! I have no problem turning down my vocals. And I can definitely turn up the drums. The lower I can get my vocals, the happier I am. But I'm usually told they're too low, so I might have over compensated in this case.

Thanx again.
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Old 06-28-2022, 08:20 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
I also struggled with getting vocals the right relative volume to the mix. What I do is

1. Create a folder containing the vocals (to include backup vocals), and create folders for each group of instruments such as Piano, Organ, Brass, Drums, Bass, Electric Guitars, Acoustic Guitars, Synths, etc. then,

2. I sidechain all instrument buses to the vocal bus on channels 3/4, and stick DynaRide2 on the vocal bus before any reverb but after compression and EQ, and on DynaRide2 I enable side-chaining on the Follow setting. I’ve found that an attack and release of 150ms is usually the right sweet spot which doesn’t accentuate sibilance too much.

3. Finally export everything but the vocals at -18 LUFS, then export the vocals at -18 LUFS.

4. Next, I import both tracks into a new project that I use for mastering. Having the vocal at -1dB in relation to the instruments is usually the perfect level. Exceptions are songs that only have, say, a single guitar, in which case having the vocal at +2dB is often the sweet spot. Another exception I’ve run into is jazz. Jazz usually sounds good with the vocal at -2 or -3 dB. Of course, these are just guidelines, but they’ll get you d-mn close!

I have created a template that I’ll share here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16WM...w?usp=drivesdk

I have to update it to the latest version I use but I’ll simply replace the project file on the Google drive so the link will still be valid.

Hope this helps!
Thanx for this. I do have folders for vocals, drums, guitars, etc...I'll take a more in depth look at everything you said here. Thank you.
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Old 06-28-2022, 11:10 AM   #8
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Yes this is good. The vocals are a bit lascivious,
a bit like "The Cure". What I would do differently
would be fine-tuning: the drums a tad quieter, the
vocals a bit more forward, but just a little bit.
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Old 06-28-2022, 12:53 PM   #9
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The vocals are a bit lascivious,
Whoah! lascivious. My voice has been called many things, but that's a first. I like it.

OK, you two fight it out and the winner can produce my next song.

Quote:
I would do differently
would be fine-tuning: the drums a tad quieter, the
vocals a bit more forward, but just a little bit.
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I found the vocals just a bit too loud and the drums a bit too quiet.
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Old 06-28-2022, 02:10 PM   #10
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The performance and mix are good enough that these drums vs vocals vs other nitpicks are strictly down to taste. Give it a rest for a few days then set it as you like it when you return to it.

Are you a fellow one-man-band recordist as I am?
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Old 06-28-2022, 02:19 PM   #11
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Are you a fellow one-man-band recordist as I am?
Yes sir. The only way to fly....solo!

Thanx for the comment. I appreciate that a lot. I've heard your stuff, saw your live videos. I lurked here for a long time before ever posting. You're someone whose opinion I hold in high regard.
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Old 06-28-2022, 02:25 PM   #12
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Yes sir. The only way to fly....solo!

Thanx for the comment. I appreciate that a lot.
It's deserved. It's nice, tight and sounds great.
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Old 06-28-2022, 03:28 PM   #13
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So I actually got a chance to listen and honestly it sounds totally fine. Some people might want the drums down 1db and the vocals up 0.5 dB but like other people have said, that’s just personal taste. I will say that using DunaRide2 as previously discussed will help bring out a couple words that are a little more buried in the mix due to the differences in dynamics on the vocals, but the average person wouldn’t think your mix is bad or anything, at all

Oh, and I just updated that template link to the latest one I use.
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Old 06-28-2022, 04:02 PM   #14
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If we were in a band together, I'd be saying "you know, that guitar on the right during the verses? Maybe mute it until 0:38 when the second half of the verse comes in". A) The initial transition into the verse will stand out more in contrast to the intro, and B) when it does come in you get a free lift of interest for the 2nd half. 2 cents, couldn't help it.
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Old 06-28-2022, 04:35 PM   #15
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If we were in a band together, I'd be saying "you know, that guitar on the right during the verses? Maybe mute it until 0:38 when the second half of the verse comes in". A) The initial transition into the verse will stand out more in contrast to the intro, and B) when it does come in you get a free lift of interest for the 2nd half. 2 cents, couldn't help it.
You know what, that's worth trying. I think sometimes I'm too concerned with symmetry. Having nothing coming out of the right side for half a verse would usually give me a nervous tick.

Funny thing is, in the last couple of months, I've noticed that many great productions aren't symmetrical at all. Vocals off centre, no guitar on one side for a verse, etc...I'm going to have to open my mind a bit.
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Old 06-28-2022, 04:37 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
So I actually got a chance to listen and honestly it sounds totally fine. Some people might want the drums down 1db and the vocals up 0.5 dB but like other people have said, that’s just personal taste. I will say that using DunaRide2 as previously discussed will help bring out a couple words that are a little more buried in the mix due to the differences in dynamics on the vocals, but the average person wouldn’t think your mix is bad or anything, at all

Oh, and I just updated that template link to the latest one I use.
Thanx alot, Lynx. I'll check that out.
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Old 06-28-2022, 05:04 PM   #17
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I've noticed that many great productions aren't symmetrical at all.
Exactly. Might be good to think of as not symmetrical at that point in time, but is symmetrical and balanced across the song as a whole. Also, ears get real board real quick once they can predict enough of what is coming next, but small modifications can reduce that.

Not a bad idea to not give it all away out of the gate, just stick the tip in, then introduce new things to them as the song progresses. What I've heard of yours sounds great, I'm just spit-ballin' things you might dig if you aren't already doing them.

Take care.
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Old 06-28-2022, 05:23 PM   #18
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I'm just spit-ballin' things you might dig if you aren't already doing them.
I dig. Good suggestions for sure.
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Old 07-02-2022, 10:43 PM   #19
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Just as "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is subjective, "Music is in the ear of the beholder" and is subjective also.

That said, as music is always subjective you will get many opinions as to how each listener will perceive this tune.

Subjectively, I love the mix
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:35 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by jacksoonbrowne View Post
Just as "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is subjective, "Music is in the ear of the beholder" and is subjective also.

That said, as music is always subjective you will get many opinions as to how each listener will perceive this tune.

Subjectively, I love the mix
Thanx a lot, Jacksoon!
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Old 07-05-2022, 03:39 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Frank Lee Scarlett View Post
So, one listen the vocals seem too loud. Later in the day, I listen and they seem buried. Same with the drums.

So, basically, I've lost objectivity and don't know if my levels are all over the place.

I know the best thing to do would be to not listen to it for about a month and come back and listen with fresh ears....But that's where you guys come in.

I think it sounds great Frank, good mix and well performed. I do agree though, the drums could come up some.

Also as a side note, and I'm not sure anyone else sees it, but when your video finished, another video showed up on the YouTube screen, and it was my old buddy "Stan Mark", one of the all time great trumpet players.
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Old 07-07-2022, 05:49 AM   #22
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I think it sounds great Frank, good mix and well performed. I do agree though, the drums could come up some.
Thanx Tod. I'm a drummer, so I got no problem turning up the drums.

Quote:
Also as a side note, and I'm not sure anyone else sees it, but when your video finished, another video showed up on the YouTube screen, and it was my old buddy "Stan Mark", one of the all time great trumpet players.
Cool. I didn't see it. I think the videos that pop up after you watch something are based on your viewing habits. So, I won't see the same recommendations as you, for example.
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Old 07-16-2022, 12:52 AM   #23
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Good punchy mix. Nice song. Very 80s ish? Nice job.
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Old 07-19-2022, 05:58 AM   #24
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Good punchy mix. Nice song. Very 80s ish? Nice job.
Shit, I'm not getting notifications, so I just saw this now. Thanx a lot for the comments, 41.

(I hate the frickin' 80's).
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Old 08-03-2022, 03:12 PM   #25
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Hey Frank…probably late to the party here… I was thinking as I was listening “wow, the drumming on this sounds awesome!”…. And then I read in the comments that you are a drummer… so that makes sense!

Listening on my headphones, the vocal levels sound pretty good to me. The only technical point I would make about the vocals is that the “answering vocals” in the chorus sound a bit over-de-essed.

I think the only other comment I would make respecting the vocals is that the traditional “clean ‘n’ big” tonality tends to be a little bit at odds with the aggressive, punchy nature of the music…

There is concept of “perspective” in mixing isn’t talked about a lot, but I think it is relevant here. In painting and drawing, it’s vital that elements within the picture look “right” size-wise relative to each other. We’ve all seen kids drawings where the house is smaller than the cat, for example…

It might not be as drastic as that, but in mixing we can do a similar thing. If a vocal is too “big” sounding, it can actually make the “band” sound “small” by comparison. The more full range, loud and dynamic vocals are, the “larger” they tend to be perceived by the listener.

So I wonder if a more band-limited, compacted, saturated vocal tone might “sit down” and integrate into the track more? As an extreme example, think about how effectively a distorted lead guitar cuts through a dense mix… despite having no lows and no extreme highs, you can hear it clearly, and it can still be “perceived” as being a big, loud sound.

Just a suggestion that might be worth experimenting with.

Nice work on the track and video!
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Old 08-10-2022, 09:35 AM   #26
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I think this is great.

I've nothing more constructive to add.

Nice one!
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Old 08-10-2022, 03:07 PM   #27
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Hey sorry guys. The e-mail address I'm always signed into isn't the same one I used to sign up here. So, I don't get notifications for new posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fHumble fHingaz View Post
Hey Frank…probably late to the party here… I was thinking as I was listening “wow, the drumming on this sounds awesome!”…. And then I read in the comments that you are a drummer… so that makes sense!

Listening on my headphones, the vocal levels sound pretty good to me. The only technical point I would make about the vocals is that the “answering vocals” in the chorus sound a bit over-de-essed.

I think the only other comment I would make respecting the vocals is that the traditional “clean ‘n’ big” tonality tends to be a little bit at odds with the aggressive, punchy nature of the music…

There is concept of “perspective” in mixing isn’t talked about a lot, but I think it is relevant here. In painting and drawing, it’s vital that elements within the picture look “right” size-wise relative to each other. We’ve all seen kids drawings where the house is smaller than the cat, for example…

It might not be as drastic as that, but in mixing we can do a similar thing. If a vocal is too “big” sounding, it can actually make the “band” sound “small” by comparison. The more full range, loud and dynamic vocals are, the “larger” they tend to be perceived by the listener.

So I wonder if a more band-limited, compacted, saturated vocal tone might “sit down” and integrate into the track more? As an extreme example, think about how effectively a distorted lead guitar cuts through a dense mix… despite having no lows and no extreme highs, you can hear it clearly, and it can still be “perceived” as being a big, loud sound.

Just a suggestion that might be worth experimenting with.

Nice work on the track and video!
Hey fHumble thanx a lot for that detailed advice.

It's funny, I actually had a lot of conflict within myself trying to decide how to treat the vocals in this, and that doesn't usually happen.

I thought of distorting them, making really dry and lo-fi, burying them, etc...I couldn't decide what to do with them. I decided to just keep them clean and add some delay in the end.

I might re-think all that now, after considering your advice. When I come back to this tune, which I almost always do at some point, I'll try a few other ideas.

Thanx a lot. You have good ears and ideas.

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Originally Posted by Primeval Mudd View Post
I think this is great.

I've nothing more constructive to add.

Nice one!
Thanx a lot, Pmudd. I appreciate it.

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Old 08-10-2022, 03:54 PM   #28
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I wish I had a nice tenor like that, everything would be easier. Except... well everything happens in the mid range, vocals are never easy to mix, high low or in between. If you had soprano, you'd be in the body of the hihat and ride.
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Old 08-12-2022, 06:29 AM   #29
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I wish I had a nice tenor like that, everything would be easier. Except... well everything happens in the mid range, vocals are never easy to mix, high low or in between. If you had soprano, you'd be in the body of the hihat and ride.
Thanx man. To be honest, I hate my voice. I always hear myself and think "Why do I sound like I have a cold". My voice sounds really stuffy to me. I have a pretty good range, I have good pitch, I CAN sing well. But I just hate the actual SOUND of my voice.
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Old 08-12-2022, 07:03 AM   #30
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Hey- yeah this is any good..sounds ok here..translates well..everything has a space..clear..dynamic..smart writing and execution=nice1.

Would add that many do not like sound of themselves? and that can still be changed to some degree with touches of formant shifting maybe hint of frequency shifting,to give a different character?
Thanks4sharing.
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Old 08-12-2022, 07:20 AM   #31
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I’d agree that most people don’t like the sound of their voice; but as long as other people like it, that’s all that matters
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Old 08-12-2022, 08:41 AM   #32
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Hey- yeah this is any good..sounds ok here..translates well..everything has a space..clear..dynamic..smart writing and execution=nice1.

Would add that many do not like sound of themselves? and that can still be changed to some degree with touches of formant shifting maybe hint of frequency shifting,to give a different character?
Thanks4sharing.
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I’d agree that most people don’t like the sound of their voice; but as long as other people like it, that’s all that matters
Thanx guys. It's re-assuring to know that most people don't like the sound of their own voice, including some "big names" like John Lennon. But I'd give anything to suck as bad as someone like Lennon. Christ, I'd settle for Ringo.
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Old 08-12-2022, 08:49 AM   #33
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But I'd give anything to suck as bad as someone like Lennon
Hilarious..well there is always the REAPER option of "will live with it for now" <> #prefs.
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