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05-18-2011, 10:21 AM
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#41
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 194
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First of all +1 from me
I've been using the feedback option to tidy up my track list with the auto-mute master option as safety precaution without any problems so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
Feedback routing defeats PDC, because otherwise the latency could diverge.
Because of this, we recommend using feedback routing for specific feedback effects, not for tidy project management.
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Did not notice that. Apparently I never used any plugins causing a delay on these instrument out. A bit disappointing to learn that now, although it technically makes sense (for real audio feedback).
So I'm all for separating midi and audio feedback. As ED pointed out sending midi from Ch1 to Ch2 and audio back from Ch2 to Ch1 isn't even a feedback and should not be treated as such by the PDC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanXIV
Unfortunatly it is the case. It causes a latency of a few ms.
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I think that's only true if you have plugins on the child channel causing a delay.
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05-18-2011, 02:01 PM
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#42
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 193
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When I started using Reaper for the first time, this very feedback issue as one of my biggest '???' -moments (feedback protection was enabled and I didn't know why audio didn't flow). I very much assumed that naturally MIDI and audio feedback were handled separately so I had a really long hairpulling session because I didn't know what was wrong, until I turned off feedback protection.
If this is isn't changed it might at least be useful to notify users somewhere in preferences that MIDI feedback is handled along with audio.
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05-18-2011, 03:42 PM
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#43
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 3,801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthias.matthias
I think that's only true if you have plugins on the child channel causing a delay.
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No. It happens always when two tracks are in feedback routing.
The delay depends on current buffer size, but there is always one.
Imagine if there was no delay, the signal should get routed instantly
back and forth between two tracks ad infinitum. Sounds like an
endless while(1) loop which usually ends with a crashed app or system.
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05-18-2011, 07:00 PM
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#44
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 53
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But if a track sends midi and receives audio then this surely isn't even feedback anyway???
Is this some abstract kind of feedback being discussed?
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05-18-2011, 07:19 PM
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#45
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 3,801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marctwo
But if a track sends midi and receives audio then this surely isn't even feedback anyway???
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This is the whole point of the request. Reaper treats this
connection as feedback routing, as there is a link between
tracks in both ways. Even though no actual feedback is
happening as the data types are different, and user makes
sure no looping of data occurs.
It could technically be called a 'bug' but since this kind
of routing was not the original design, it was filed as
a feature request.
e
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05-18-2011, 07:39 PM
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#46
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 53
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Right, it's just that this type of thing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM
No. It happens always when two tracks are in feedback routing.
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...seems to suggest that you think it is 'feedback routing.
I guess I took it too literally and you're all just using this type of term for reference only...
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05-19-2011, 12:43 AM
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#47
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 668
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+1
ED's request is essential IMHO.
Current Reaper's way of handling multitimbral VSTis is cumbersome, tiresome and illogical because of this simple limitation.
Every time I start working with some multitimbral VSTi I'm asking myself: "Why, oh why I have to fiddle with so many tracks and keep all this routing hell in my head? Why can't it be simple enough to have VSTi as a folder track and timbres/channels/outputs as single tracks inside that folder?"
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05-19-2011, 01:45 AM
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#48
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,677
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... as it is not a "real" audio feedback loop, then (I think that) the latency would not diverge as the plugin is only in the loop once.
----------------------------
But I may have lost the plot.
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
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05-19-2011, 02:02 AM
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#49
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM
No. It happens always when two tracks are in feedback routing.
The delay depends on current buffer size, but there is always one.
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Yes, you're absolutely right. I guess I hadn't noticed because I was using a really small buffer size. But even then you can clearly the comb filtering when using the exact same sound on two tracks where one is in a (fake) feedback loop. Bummer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanActive
+1
ED's request is essential IMHO.
Current Reaper's way of handling multitimbral VSTis is cumbersome, tiresome and illogical because of this simple limitation.
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Definitively +1
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05-19-2011, 02:06 AM
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#50
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Thanks for the support, people.
I just don't know why can't the two separate data streams be TREATED separately... It should be possible, without screwing up PDC.
I'd really like to hear an explanation from schwa or Justin. Because this is something that for sure can improve the workflow of us MIDI guys - so we can have a MIDI item on the same track that serves as audio output (instead of doubling the number of tracks, then hiding audio outputs in TCP and hiding MIDI tracks in MCP...)
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05-19-2011, 02:47 AM
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#51
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 3,801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
... as it is not a "real" audio feedback loop, then (I think that) the latency would not diverge as the plugin is only in the loop once.
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Exactly right. But Reaper thinks there is actual feedback loop,
so it introduces latency unjustified. You understand the problem,
but specifically it's not the loss of PDC that is the issue, rather the
detection of when the feedback actually happens.
e
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05-19-2011, 02:56 AM
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#52
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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...which makes it a buggy behavior that needs to be fixed.
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05-19-2011, 02:57 AM
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#53
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 3,801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
...which makes it a buggy behavior that needs to be fixed.
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This thread is looping itself.
Edit: Also ED, could you include FR link in your OP for more votes?
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2722
e
Last edited by EricM; 05-19-2011 at 03:03 AM.
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05-19-2011, 03:09 AM
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#54
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 38
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yes, please... would love to see this in v4 !!
Cheers,
Doc
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05-24-2011, 02:41 AM
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#55
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 194
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The flexible routing is one of the main things that brought to Reaper in the first place - and I'm sure I'm not the only one. So this really needs being fixed.
Maybe there needs to be some kind of feedback detection logic --> only introduce the delay if there actually is a real feedback loop.
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05-24-2011, 04:33 AM
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#56
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sweden.
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM
This thread is looping itself.
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But it's yet to generate feedback.
__________________
REAPER was made for you and me
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05-24-2011, 04:58 AM
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#57
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 3,801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibben
But it's yet to generate feedback.
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let's hope it was at least detected, we shouldn't
delay this any longer.
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05-24-2011, 05:00 AM
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#58
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 5,559
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Still no reaction from the devs.
-Data
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05-24-2011, 05:21 AM
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#59
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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We're waiting for a new beta for quite a while now...
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05-24-2011, 05:25 AM
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#60
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 5,559
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Yes, but I'd like to have seen (or still like to see) some comments from them about this issue.
-Data
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05-24-2011, 05:31 AM
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#61
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Indeed.
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05-24-2011, 05:55 AM
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#62
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 5,559
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I N D E E D !
-Data
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05-24-2011, 06:52 AM
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#63
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 3,801
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05-24-2011, 06:59 AM
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#64
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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LOL, that is so random a pic to link with "the dude"..
I'm not getting the hawk character reference?
(although it is the first pic that came up for "indeed"
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05-24-2011, 07:00 AM
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#65
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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"why you no semplify feedback?"
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05-24-2011, 07:34 AM
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#66
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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No, no, I've got a better one.
[IMG]http://img26.**************/img26/6234/feedbackml.png[/IMG]
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05-24-2011, 10:17 AM
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#67
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
No, no, I've got a better one.
[IMG]http://img26.**************/img26/6234/feedbackml.png[/IMG]
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A pretty image I'd prefer, same catch phrase but with a spelling mistake.
Anyway, +1 000 000 000 for that feature. I see no reason why.
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05-24-2011, 10:20 AM
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#68
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Damn I knew it I should have written CREATE FEEDBACK. XD
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05-24-2011, 11:48 AM
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#69
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 65
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simplify fedback?
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05-24-2011, 12:04 PM
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#70
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: dusty hot place
Posts: 1,492
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devs ... for not commenting on this thread. Better hope you're finishing beta 7 for download soon!
__________________
... yOu aNd mE are ...
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05-24-2011, 01:00 PM
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#71
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 3,801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers
I'm not getting the hawk character reference?
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It's the ORLY owl. I think u'll be able to connect the dots from here
e
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05-24-2011, 01:07 PM
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#72
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Hawk
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05-24-2011, 01:37 PM
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#73
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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OOOOOOOOOOO now I get it!
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05-24-2011, 03:13 PM
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#74
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,372
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Here's one:
Last edited by krahosk; 05-24-2011 at 03:30 PM.
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05-25-2011, 06:27 AM
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#75
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,164
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General MIDI.
He wants this too - very much.
Seriously. It would be wonderful!
__________________
Needin' upgrades
Last edited by arbogast; 05-25-2011 at 08:12 AM.
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05-25-2011, 08:22 AM
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#76
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sweden.
Posts: 1,610
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__________________
REAPER was made for you and me
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05-26-2011, 01:10 AM
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#77
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 194
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I have to say, these last few posts seem rather desperate .
But it's nice to know I'm not the only one desperately hoping for this to be fixed.
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05-26-2011, 01:40 AM
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#78
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
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05-26-2011, 01:47 AM
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#79
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 3,210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf
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now that's just Low!
lol
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05-26-2011, 02:00 AM
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#80
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sweden.
Posts: 1,610
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Oh noes. Don't bring kittens into the argument. Kittens are innocent and just want to cuddle.
__________________
REAPER was made for you and me
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