When is a interface too old?
When are cables too old?
My interface is pretty old and a plugin developer recommended to have a new audio interface eveey 5 years of use.
This way you always have the newest technology, too.
Use? I almost never touched my interface. All settings were made, all cables are plugged.
Newest techology. Afaik RME still has interfaces that were released about 8 years ago. They were good 8 years ago, today they are no good any more?
Can you use a cable more than 5 years?
Of course there are differences in quality,
But when us a cable too old?
If course, when you have some crackles or noise and you find out it's a cable, then it's time to buy a new one.
Do you buy new cables, let's say every 5 or 7 years? Do you use an old interface?
Its too old when they stop supporting the product to keep drivers up to date. That is a good sign that it's getting harder to keep it working and you're coming up on having more trouble with it. I just updated my 10-12 year old RME800 because I wanted to, but honestly I didn't need to because it still worked perfectly. My UFX2 is great but I'm not sure if it's better...tough to say. It has an extra midi in-out and aes/ebu instead of spdif which I think is better. I really haven't tried out the new preamps yet but I'm hoping those are better because I wasn't a super fan of the FF800 preamps.
As long as you take good care of your cables they can last decades. Buy a cable tester if you are worried, it will tell you if your cables have gone down the bad path. I like Mogami cable the best but I think I have some Canare cables that were a little cheaper and I like those too. I think the Quad cable design is supposed to help with picking up radio frequencies and crap like that but if I don't have problems then I don't think about it.
As for cables they must have Neutrik connectors for me, otherwise I do not buy. It's because everyone when I started making music told me Neutrik is the best. Not sure if this is still the case, maybe times have changed?!
I used M Audio Fastrack C400. So many people told me they do not understang why I use such a cheap interface, but it works great for me. Latency values are superb, I can even track with buffer size 512 without latency! And it has SPDIF and midi, that's important for me. Btw they never made any driver update, but why should they?
I will get a focusrite next week and would be disappointed if the sound quality was not remarkably better and also I expect even better latency values from a new model. I did not go for RME Fireface UC, because I could test it, soundwise I did not like it more than M audio, and I read in some threads that soundwise it's not the best interface. I know RME has way better interfaces, but also way more expensive. But RME has Neutrik and focusrite not!
@camerondye
That's what I read about your interface:
The Fireface 800 is the world's most powerful FireWire audio interface ever...
I have a focusrite for a mobile rig and it works great. Obviously the RME is better but it's also a lot more expensive. BTW, unless you are direct monitoring you don't have no latency at 512, just acceptable latency. If you are happy with the way your recordings sound you are good IMO.
I'm sure that in many pro studios who have their cables literally built in the the structure of the building would never replace their cables... connectors, perhaps, if they are regularly plugged in and out. But it would be interesting to hear from the pro's here on that.
I also don't see me ever replacing my three interfaces unless they either fail or Windows no longer supports them.
Mostly it's the physical connections that fail on us.
The cables are too old when it is uneconomical to repair them due to damage. Otherwise the cables should last for decades. You should be able to keep cables going if you can use a soldering iron, desoldering braid and a basic soldering clamp.
If you can no longer get working drivers for your device then that's when it becomes a paperweight.
Otherwise if the connectors, switches and potentiometers (that you want to use) become noisy and costly or impossible to repair it's landfill.
Electronics inside could last several decade, however cheap devices don't owe you anything after a few years, but it's nice if they last for decades.
I'm sure that in many pro studios who have their cables literally built in the the structure of the building would never replace their cables... connectors, perhaps, if they are regularly plugged in and out. But it would be interesting to hear from the pro's here on that.
I also don't see me ever replacing my three interfaces unless they either fail or Windows no longer supports them.
Is it possible to use 3 interfaces at the same time in Reaper?
My decision for focusrite was also because it has lots more I/O and I would be surprised if the amps did not sound better than M audio
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
The only issue I have ever had with pro quality cables was with one I made myself back in the late sixties. Cannon connectors (Naji: Neutric was introduced as a cheap alternative to Cannon & XLR back in the day!) and top quality Belden cable. Many years later I was recording in Rockfield studios down in Wales & trapped the cable in the massive Studio 1 door.
It stopped working, so that evening I opened it up and started cutting it back to find the break. The dielectric was literally crumbling away into nothing! I gave up after cutting it back 6 inches at a time for a couple of feet. In fairness, it had led a hard life & this was in the late seventies, so I guess it really depends on how hard your cables have worked. Mine were carried around jumbled up in a large cable box to gigs, rehearsals & of course recording sessions for all of that ten years.
As for interfaces, I got through a bunch till I bought my first (used) RME & have never looked back. I have never bought a new one but both of mine are still working great & their software & firmware is still upgraded regularly, despite them both being no longer in production. Cant argue with that.
Neutrik a cheap alternative? Did not know that, because everyone talked about good swiss quality, it is swiss, isn't it. No, it was Liechtenstein.
And for some gear explicitly was described to have Neutrik connectors to show it is good quality. But today Neutrik does not seem as popular as about 15 years ago, I am not sure whether the quality has become worse. I am quite sure RME is a great brand, but I also think other brands have improved in the last years.
I know there may be a danger than gradual deterioration is hard to detect but I have just been thinking of how old the cables are we regularly USED to use (thanks COVID) with our live band. They must be at least a decade old and have been subject to all the rigours of live playing and transportation etc. We have had a handful of failures over the years but mostly all good.
My interface is an "obsolete" M-Audio 1010. Despite no offically supported Win 10 drivers it works just fine with very low (2.9 ms!) reported latency. I reckon that other elements in the chain (room treatment or lack of, mic quality or lack of!) are more crucial limiting factors in the sound quality. I could be wrong of course...
I second Ivan's comments about Cannon connectors (ant if I remember correctly ITT and Amphenol too). Prograde and not cheap. Built like tanks! Still have some in use today.
Most of my retirement purchases are however Neutrik being a cheap reasonable value alternative with fair build quality. Not quite the same though!
Too old? Well not interface and cables but I have some brilliant Sennheiser electrostatic headphones HE60s +amp (to listen to that is).
I now think they are too old when I see them advertised on fleabay as vintage highly desirable at thousands!! Time to get rid?
Naji, I really hope that plugin developer is better at making plugins than gauging technology lifespan because that is a seriously uninformed opinion.
Audio and music equipment is a bit different from other kinds of tech because of long lifespan both in terms of design and longevity. Some pro audio gear rely on designs that are decades old and as long as the build quality is decently pro spec they will usually last a long time. There are of course exceptions but as a general rule it holds true. A smartphone, television or computer ten years old is sometimes nothing but a fancy paper weight but a decades old RME Hammerfall is still an amazing interface with really low latency. If I hadn’t switched to Mac I’d still be using mine.
In my humble opinion, as long as there are updated drivers and it sounds good the energy is better spent making music than worrying about gear.
Neutrik a cheap alternative? Did not know that, because everyone talked about good swiss quality, it is swiss, isn't it. No, it was Liechtenstein.
Neutrik are a well respected and not necessarily a cheap brand. But their chinese REAN versions are much cheaper, about 1/3 the price of real Neutrik equivalents. You'll recognize them from the NYS type name. Retailers sometimes "forget" the name Rean and sell them simply as Neutriks. Do that long enough and this is what we see here and there; Neutrik are the cheapos. Well, not really.
I have used Neutrik, Switchcraft and Amphenol connectors for decades, no quality problems with any of them. With fixed lines, plugging/unplugging can wear out plugs and jacks at some point, cables less likely. In live use cables last way better when they are handled properly, but are naturally more prone to accidents.
Naji, I really hope that plugin developer is better at making plugins than gauging technology lifespan because that is a seriously uninformed opinion.
Audio and music equipment is a bit different from other kinds of tech because of long lifespan both in terms of design and longevity. Some pro audio gear rely on designs that are decades old and as long as the build quality is decently pro spec they will usually last a long time. There are of course exceptions but as a general rule it holds true. A smartphone, television or computer ten years old is sometimes nothing but a fancy paper weight but a decades old RME Hammerfall is still an amazing interface with really low latency. If I hadn’t switched to Mac I’d still be using mine.
In my humble opinion, as long as there are updated drivers and it sounds good the energy is better spent making music than worrying about gear.
I should be more precise, he expierienced from time to time that musicians complain about sound issues and an old interface or cable could be the cause! To buy a new interface every 5 or 7 years maybe should be taken into consideration if you do not buy the high quality interfaces. M-Audio c400 Fastrack for sure is not one of the best, but there is nothing to complain about. I was once surprised that I read about latency per buffer size values of a RME interface and M Audio Fastrack has even better values. I know that these values are not the only important thing.
I would like to have more I/O, though
@ Allybye
I still use Sennheiser HD 265 linear, and if it did not work any more, I d be lost haha I recently replaced cable for the first time, you still get it! SENNHEISER was a great company, now you get China quality, that's sad
i'm still using 2 Terratec EWS88mt's in a win 7 64bit machine and on a second machine a win 7 32bit system with a Terratec Phase 88 Rack Firewire, audio quality is great, Reaper loves them and they work like a charm ! I change cables when they break /wear out etc.
I should be more precise, he expierienced from time to time that musicians complain about sound issues and an old interface or cable could be the cause! To buy a new interface every 5 or 7 years maybe should be taken into consideration if you do not buy the high quality interfaces. M-Audio c400 Fastrack for sure is not one of the best, but there is nothing to complain about. I was once surprised that I read about latency per buffer size values of a RME interface and M Audio Fastrack has even better values. I know that these values are not the only important thing.
I would like to have more I/O, though
Fair enough. I guess if you buy a lower priced interface every five years that’s not too pricey to keep a hobby going. Don’t know how M-Audio stacks up today but I have owned one Delta 1010 that I really liked and my first proper interface was the smaller Audiophile. I remember both as great interfaces although I recall there was some hassle with drivers at times. I’ve only ever changed interface because they either stopped working or I outgrew them as in there was something they could not do. I’ve never switched out an interface that was working for me for some vague reason like “better quality”.
As I read your post you’re wondering if your old interface should be replaced although it’s working and I think I know the feeling. I’ve been there a thousand times, gassing and looking online, reading specs and almost pulling the trigger. Every time I’ve held back though and kept what I have until I really needed an upgrade. Usually I’ve put the money to a new instrument, plugin or other piece of gear or software that makes more of a difference to me. With that said, I’m certain that if I had ever felt that my enjoyment of making music would be seriously improved by a new interface I would not hesitate. Life’s too short not to enjoy shiny toys.
When something breaks and repairing it costs more than replacing it.
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Originally Posted by Naji
When are cables too old?
When something breaks to the point that repair isn't reasonable.
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Originally Posted by Naji
My interface is pretty old and a plugin developer recommended to have a new audio interface eveey 5 years of use.
That "plugin developer" is a grifter. That's bs and I would pointedly not buy anything from someone that bluntly dishonest.
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Originally Posted by Naji
This way you always have the newest technology, too.
That doesn't follow, no.
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Originally Posted by Naji
Use? I almost never touched my interface. All settings were made, all cables are plugged.
Newest techology. Afaik RME still has interfaces that were released about 8 years ago. They were good 8 years ago, today they are no good any more?
False. It's the same equipment it was 8 years ago.
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Originally Posted by Naji
Can you use a cable more than 5 years?
I've been using mic cables I made for over 20 years. Strong yes.
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Originally Posted by Naji
Of course there are differences in quality,
Yes there are! I like star quad cable and Neutrik connectors.
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Originally Posted by Naji
But when us a cable too old?
see above
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naji
If course, when you have some crackles or noise and you find out it's a cable, then it's time to buy a new one.
I'd look into repairing it first! (This "disposable culture" is ridiculous!)
But if you bought cheap like Hosa with the molded on connectors and poor cable it probably had a defect in the package to begin with and was not repairable to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naji
Do you buy new cables, let's say every 5 or 7 years? Do you use an old interface?
I still have many mic cables I built over 20 years ago. I still have 2 MOTU 828mk3 interfaces I use regularly. An Apogee Rosetta 800 I use all the time. And then an older MOTU 828mk2 and original 896 that I rarely use. But they still work just fine.
Basically the theme here is don't buy cheap. Buy gear with some quality and it will work out to be a better deal when you don't have to keep throwing it away and starting over.
Here we have some people spending big sums on mics and interfaces, monitoring, a PC....and then buy cheap lower quality cable/interconnects.
Then, for example, many try to get rid of interference with new usb cables, isolators etc to get rid of a problem that might not have existed......(usb not the only potential source of interference)
The extra for star quad per 100m drum is about £50 and that reduces some potential interference a lot.
USB noise is often from the digital edges transmitted and by design star quad was designed to reduce pickup of this typical edges from control gear and lighting dimmers.
I did laugh at the phrase "But if you bought cheap like Hosa with the molded on connectors and poor cable it probably had a defect in the package to begin with and was not repairable to begin with." I think they call that pithy.
When is a interface too old?
When are cables too old?
My interface is pretty old and a plugin developer recommended to have a new audio interface eveey 5 years of use.
This way you always have the newest technology, too.
Use? I almost never touched my interface. All settings were made, all cables are plugged.
Newest techology. Afaik RME still has interfaces that were released about 8 years ago. They were good 8 years ago, today they are no good any more?
Can you use a cable more than 5 years?
Of course there are differences in quality,
But when us a cable too old?
If course, when you have some crackles or noise and you find out it's a cable, then it's time to buy a new one.
Do you buy new cables, let's say every 5 or 7 years? Do you use an old interface?
If it works (and there's no noise or crackling), it works.
I have an interface that is probably 15 years old (M Audio Projectmix), still works fine.
Today quality has changed in a drastical way. Eg When Sennheiser released HD Pro 80 headphones, it was good quality. 5 years later I wanted to buy them again. They were completely different, the haptic, the plastic was of cheap quality, even the sound was different. I sent them back. The same with AKG 701. I read so many good reviews. These headphones are the cheapest piece of crap, I have ever seen, only good enough for playing e-piano in order not to annoy neighbours. AKG and, Sennheiser still produce some of their famous mics, but the quality is bad compared to the originals.
Production in Asia is a controversial matter. A leading company for audio products is SAMSUNG, they own AKG®, Harman Kardon®, Infinity®, JBL®, Lexicon®, Mark Levinson® and Revel® and some more. Where will this lead to? Will Mercedes become Asian, too or the Buckingham Palace one day (hotel for tourists from Asia and mansion of an asian business man?) ?
Btw you can be happy with a cheaper product, too. M audio C400 gave me all I needed, no issues.
I am excited about Focusrite, first I will have to get used to the red color haha, but I suppose, it's made in China, too..
So I agree with quality being important, but with exceptions
Eg Prince prefered using all his career a cheap no name guitar, with the look of a classic Tele. Engineers had big trouble to make it sound well live. But it was the guitar he could play best with a special sound.
He surely felt comfortable with it and prefered its haptic and playability he was used to.
Some say a guitarist must be able to play all guitars. That's simply not true. I know I could never play a Gibson Les Paul as good as a Strat for instance. A strat is a pretty cheap guitar, especially the way it looks is cheap. As a kid I thought it was a plastic guitar produced in Russia
Someone might say the customers do not want to pay a lot any more. Well, what happened? I can talk about Germany only, where I grew up. When the currency DM (Deutsche Mark) was replaced by EUR, people had to pay twice as much all of a sudden. 1 EUr was about 2 DM. Eg a piece of butter was 1 DM and then 1 EUR. They left the prices and simply changed the currency only. Then the market for music changed because of daws and plugins, hardware's biggest competitor. And the customers changed. In the 1980ies professional equipment was mostly bought by professional musicians or studios. Since 1990ies everyone could start producing music, a lot of new customers for cheap products
When you buy a new Sennheiser MD 441 or 431, it's not the same product that was used by some famous singers many years ago
You will maybe find it in studios like Sunset Sound LA. These old studios have a big advantage, they still have the good quality of original products
Today quality has changed in a drastical way. Eg When Sennheiser released HD Pro 80 headphones, it was good quality. 5 years later I wanted to buy them again. They were completely different, the haptic, the plastic was of cheap quality, even the sound was different. I sent them back. The same with AKG 701. I read so many good reviews. These headphones are the cheapest piece of crap, I have ever seen, only good enough for playing e-piano in order not to annoy neighbours. AKG and, Sennheiser still produce some of their famous mics, but the quality is bad compared to the originals.
Production in Asia is a controversial matter. A leading company for audio products is SAMSUNG, they own AKG®, Harman Kardon®, Infinity®, JBL®, Lexicon®, Mark Levinson® and Revel® and some more. Where will this lead to? Will Mercedes become Asian, too or the Buckingham Palace one day (hotel for tourists from Asia and mansion of an asian business man?) ?
Btw you can be happy with a cheaper product, too. M audio C400 gave me all I needed, no issues.
I am excited about Focusrite, first I will have to get used to the red color haha, but I suppose, it's made in China, too..
So I agree with quality being important, but with exceptions
Eg Prince prefered using all his career a cheap no name guitar, with the look of a classic Tele. Engineers had big trouble to make it sound well live. But it was the guitar he could play best with a special sound.
He surely felt comfortable with it and prefered its haptic and playability he was used to.
Some say a guitarist must be able to play all guitars. That's simply not true. I know I could never play a Gibson Les Paul as good as a Strat for instance. A strat is a pretty cheap guitar, especially the way it looks is cheap. As a kid I thought it was a plastic guitar produced in Russia
My HD800s are made in Germany (and still are, but I guess they can afford to be as a high end model). My HD600s were made in Ireland and they don't make them anymore, but someone else was manufacturing them again (well the 650) under a different name I presume after buying all the tooling/machinery to manufacture them from Sennheiser, possibly even in the same factory.
The general trend has been to produce more and more in China.
However some manufacturers have quietly brought manufacturing back on some high end Hi-fi. It doesn't always work out that much cheaper if you don't produce the volume. Large scale mass production is where it is at.
I highly doubt Sennheiser makes any of their high end microphones in China.
The current crisis might lead to more production closer to home.
They can have Buckingham palace with pleasure. Take the royals too, especially Prince Andrew, but they'll have to watch that one.
Products built in China are not low quality by default. They can build higher quality products too but it will cost more. I think the culprit is the combination of consumers in the west expecting the lowest possible prices and companies that are happy to supply an endless stream of incrementally improved subpar products not built to last. We are caught in a self-reinforcing feedback loop of the worst kind of short sighted consumerism mayhem ever seen.
Products built in China are not low quality by default. They can build higher quality products too but it will cost more. I think the culprit is the combination of consumers in the west expecting the lowest possible prices and companies that are happy to supply an endless stream of incrementally improved subpar products not built to last. We are caught in a self-reinforcing feedback loop of the worst kind of short sighted consumerism mayhem ever seen.
Yes, westerners started moving production purely to make use of vastly cheaper labour, typically at massive scale. Once you start talking about higher grade specialist production then the wages go up too (even if they are still below western wages to make it pay the difference has to be huge). When you factor in shipping costs, additional quality control etc the differences start to disappear.
Today the problem is now a lack of the skilled workforce and manufacturing facilities in the west. That stuff doesn't come back overnight, but Trumped up populist politicians gloss over things like that.
Example of a great mic, especially for female vocals.
Do you notice a difference?
You can see that the material was way better and I am sure the sound quality was better, too
Yes, westerners started moving production purely to make use of vastly cheaper labour, typically at massive scale. Once you start talking about higher grade specialist production then the wages go up too (even if they are still below western wages to make it pay the difference has to be huge). When you factor in shipping costs, additional quality control etc the differences start to disappear.
Today the problem is now a lack of the skilled workforce and manufacturing facilities in the west. That stuff doesn't come back overnight, but Trumped up populist politicians gloss over things like that.
+1.
Yes, to believe that it's a political decision where stuff is made and to what quality or cost is quite naive. It's going to take time but most of all it's going to require us consumers in the west to rethink our consumer patterns. We need to be prepared to either fork out the cash or lower our expectations. Go back to when if you had less money you bought simpler things but of higher quality. Hopefully this horrible pandemic can teach us a thing or two and on the other side we might re-evaluate what quality is; both in terms of life in general and products. Relentlessly cutting costs to maximise output comes with its own price.
There are still quality products built and sold. There may be a few more grifter offerings to wade through these days. But cheapness has been around for a long time as well.
This especially makes the point for keeping your current and older gear maintained. It turns out that some products appear for a brief period. You can't always count on being able to go back to the store and grab a new one. There could be a 10 year gap between one company making something useful and the next company picking up on that. With only cheapness available during the period in between.
Aside: Listen to the Zappa track Cheapness on Roxy and Elsewhere if you haven't.
There's this disposable culture that's just ridiculous right now.
How about Apple? They go from the flagship computer maker to selling intentionally disposable garbage with hard drives soldered to the logic board when Jobs died. I'm running my 2011 Macbook Pro and 2009/2010 Mac Pro for the next 10 years.
Another thing that always amuses me is seeing old gear still in service connected up with new gear and everything happily working away.
Roxy and elsewhere is one of my first albums, got it from a teacher at school.
The first album I bought with my
own money, allowance from my parents, was 1999, listened to it more than a thousand times.
The pretty long drum break of More trouble every day, is one of the best ever
Roxy and elsewhere is one of my first albums, got it from a teacher at school.
The first album I bought with my
own money, allowance from my parents, was 1999, listened to it more than a thousand times.
The pretty long drum break of More trouble every day, is one of the best ever
I listened to The Gumbo Variations from Hot Rats earlier today and realized that’s the proper way to make a drum solo. Just keep the beat and add some extra hi-hat action waiting for that super funky bass to start things off again.
I have my new Focusrite and it is soundwise better than my old M Audio.
But one thing surprises me. The latency values in ms for a specific buffer size are better with M Audio. I do not care as long I can track with Focusrite the buffer size set to 128. But with M Audio I could even track with buffer size set to 512. Focusrite has a too high ms value with buffer size 512.
What does that mean? That M Audio has better drivers?
Whst does it actually mean when an interface has good or better drivers, is it about latency / buffer size. If that's the case M Audio is even better than RME Fireface UC USB.
You run live through the computer mixer when you track then? (Perhaps for a MIDI instrument or an amp sim?)
Do you use the Reaper control panel to set the block size? (Box ticked, value entered in Reaper Preferences/Audio/Device) Or do you use some other control panel app? (Box unticked in Reaper to disable control and then use something else.)
When I change buffer size in Reaper, it automatically changes in Focusrite's control software. Whenever you change buffer size, you see the corresponding ms value in Reaper.
I have set to ASIO and selected Focusrite.
When I play a VSTi I play it with my master keyboard, Focusrite has midi, too.
Guitar I plug into interface
I must not save buffer size in Reaper?
Don't you have to write and save a value for buffer size in Reaper?
I can not remember a box that is ticked, I will check tomorrow.
Thanks, I am fine with Focusrite, like the siund quality, but can not understand why an old cheap interface has better latency / buffer size than Focusrite and RME.
Rme is said to have vest drivers, what does this mean? Better lateny values?
Eg blocksize 256 = 12 ms (Focusrite)
About 10. 8 (M Audio C400)