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11-17-2019, 11:13 AM
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#1
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Pixel Pusher
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
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Reaper V6 Default Theme - TESTING THE MIDI EDITOR
The Reaper V6 Default Theme's MIDI editor is now ready for testing. Please have at it and report back!
GET THE LATEST VERSION HERE
The MID editor is a tricky situation, because more than any other area of Reaper's themble UI it grows and alters a great deal between major versions, with a great deal of testing that I am not intimately involved with. I am also, relative to many of you, a light MIDI user, and many of you also use the ME in ways that are very different to the majority of casual Reaper users. Because of this, in previous default theme development cycles we have always (always!) reverted to the existing ME theming by the time the theme is final. There is a pretty good chance I'll be doing that again this time, as well. To reiterate:
It is likely I will be reverting the V5 MIDI Editor theming into the V6 theme
However, every time I do this it feels like an opportunity missed. I find it highly unlikely that the first midinotecolormap I ever made just so happened to be the best one I could possibly make, yet here we are still using it so many years later. So if we can get enough testing done on the new ME, I would be very eager.
As you will notice, I'm trying to do a dark background for the first time. This is not mere fashion; hardware manufacturers are driving computer screens to levels of full-white brightness that would have been unimaginable only a few years ago, and users aren't turning them down, because ...y'know... its awesome So it is of real-world value for us to try to make this work.
There have been some ME theming enhancements in recent Pre-Releases to help in this work, it is my expectation that there are unlikely to be any more, so my work now is to make the most of what we have (NO feature requests please!), and I would welcome your help with that.
Thanks!
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11-17-2019, 11:38 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,883
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I find this v6 ME coloring very pleasing to work with for longer periods. Even though ive created a few themes myself I personally always used the default ones for my work.
Ive been intenionally working with the alpha theme since its conception and its grown on me.(specially the darker arrange and ME bgs). I can say that the v5 midi editor colors werent so great to work with- as you said newer monitors are quite bright.
The latest Midi colormap is much more usable than the previous one (it clashed with the new selected velocity lollipops. The only thing i find a bit distracting is the violet color of cc automation in this latest. previous green (like the piano roll chosen note) or second red colors were better.
Best regards
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11-17-2019, 01:04 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Dark themed ME is absolutely necessary, IMHO. You'll find many working composers who just can't work with all the brightness from a light themed ME for longer hours.
But yes - purple as CC color for channel 1 is a no go. Please change that to something that is more visible against the background color of CC lane (which is great actually!).
I would also suggest to change the background color of the left-side piano keyboard and right-side track list area (the greenish hue) because it is clashing way too much with the rest of piano roll. Ideally it should have the same color (or close to) as the MIDI editor ruler.
Compare this:
https://i.imgur.com/V8qctrV.png
with:
https://i.imgur.com/Tk97ez6.png
Which one seems less tiring for you to look at - and, more importantly, easier to discern what is what? These are all random notes and CCs, but it is a VERY realistic scenario for the working composer dealing with many MIDI tracks/channels. This has to look good/flattering/easy to discern. Right now the colormap could use some improvements in making that happen.
CCs for MIDI channel 1 are extremely hard to see, the dark purple has to go. But overall color scheme is MUCH MUCH BETTER than the drab bright theme that was in v5 theme.
Last edited by White Tie; 11-18-2019 at 12:24 PM.
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11-18-2019, 08:35 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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Definitely like a "dark mode" version better than a white background for sure.
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note: don't search for my pseudonym on the web. The "musicbynumbers" you find is not me or the name I use for my own music.
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11-18-2019, 08:39 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 876
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I prefer a little darker look of the Midi Editor, and I'm putting a link here so you can see my thoughts on it. It's easier for me to show instead of writing in my bad English))
Really don’t want to take away focus from WT’s fine creation, which I honestly think is very useful, only with some minor color-tweaks as already mentioned. I would vote for the gray’ish (upper) version. Perhaps the lower one with dark background will create problems on other UI windows that include tab text(?)
My suggestion here uses tweaked V6, the Midi Colormap is a brighter version of V5 default.
Only thing I would swap or re-arrange, is the first red (CC 1) that I believe should be a green-like V6 ‘identity-color’ – perhaps also the purple a touch brighter.
– use it for inspiration, or ignore it!
https://i.ibb.co/MMgBgGq/V6-Midi-Editor-dark-alt.png
Last edited by White Tie; 11-18-2019 at 12:39 PM.
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11-18-2019, 10:58 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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I would like to know if you plan on leaving a light background MIDI editor as an option for those of us who struggle to see these dark themes.
As your eyes get older, many of us experience difficulties with light fonts on dark backgrounds.
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11-18-2019, 11:22 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
I would like to know if you plan on leaving a light background MIDI editor as an option for those of us who struggle to see these dark themes.
As your eyes get older, many of us experience difficulties with light fonts on dark backgrounds.
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i agree. this coming from someone who still uses the default version 1.0 reaper theme. (not kidding)
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11-18-2019, 11:44 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhelixK
I prefer a little darker look of the Midi Editor,
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The problem with darker look is persistence of vision due to the greater contrast with other elements.
Read a text on a web page that has white text against a pure black background. Then, look around. The image is burnt on your retina longer. It's not user friendly in the long run.
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11-18-2019, 11:50 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Dark themed ME is absolutely necessary, IMHO. You'll find many working composers who just can't work with all the brightness from a light themed ME for longer hours.
But yes - purple as CC color for channel 1 is a no go. Please change that to something that is more visible against the background color of CC lane (which is great actually!).
I would also suggest to change the background color of the left-side piano keyboard and right-side track list area (the greenish hue) because it is clashing way too much with the rest of piano roll. Ideally it should have the same color (or close to) as the MIDI editor ruler.
Compare this:
with:
Which one seems less tiring for you to look at - and, more importantly, easier to discern what is what? These are all random notes and CCs, but it is a VERY realistic scenario for the working composer dealing with many MIDI tracks/channels. This has to look good/flattering/easy to discern. Right now the colormap could use some improvements in making that happen.
CCs for MIDI channel 1 are extremely hard to see, the dark purple has to go. But overall color scheme is MUCH MUCH BETTER than the drab bright theme that was in v5 theme.
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I agree with a dark theme and no dark purple for channel 1. The second picture with the slightly lighter grey and less saturated notes and CCs stand out much better and easier on the eye.
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11-18-2019, 11:59 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Joisey
Posts: 5,990
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Evil Dragon's mock-up (or example) has a good use of color and looks a big improvement to me too.
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11-18-2019, 12:07 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 604
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I love the piano roll.
Of course the dark option works well (or even better) for me ... I don't have any preference between WT's and ED's option. But plz ... my eyes are getting old, make clear the selected note plz, both in the piano roll and the ME, as easy to identify as possible.
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11-18-2019, 12:38 PM
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#12
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Pixel Pusher
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janne83
The only thing i find a bit distracting is the violet color of cc automation in this latest. previous green (like the piano roll chosen note) or second red colors were better.
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Yes, good call.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
I would also suggest to change the background color of the left-side piano keyboard and right-side track list area (the greenish hue) because it is clashing way too much with the rest of piano roll. Ideally it should have the same color (or close to) as the MIDI editor ruler.
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I disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Compare this:
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I've removed the embedding on your screenshots, because it was encouraging people to comment on screenshots rather than direct experience, which isn't, we have learned, very helpful unless all their projects look like that screenshot What's needed is for people to actually load the theme and use it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhelixK
Only thing I would swap or re-arrange, is the first red (CC 1) that I believe should be a green-like V6 ‘identity-color’ –
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Yes, very nice. I'll try that right away, thanks!
EDIT : tried it, its great
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
I would like to know if you plan on leaving a light background MIDI editor as an option for those of us who struggle to see these dark themes.
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No, unless I revert the V5 ME, in which case yes. Either way, you'll still have the V5 theme, yeah?
Quote:
Originally Posted by krahosk
The problem with darker look is persistence of vision due to the greater contrast with other elements.
Read a text on a web page that has white text against a pure black background. Then, look around. The image is burnt on your retina longer.
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Don't worry, I won't be doing white on black. This is mid-tone colours (depending on custom colour selection) on mid-dark grey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagalume
I love the piano roll.
my eyes are getting old, make clear the selected note plz, both in the piano roll and the ME, as easy to identify as possible.
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This is indeed the trade off. The ladder goes:
1) dark enough to show differentiation of base colour
2) light enough to show selected state
3) not so bright that you can't differentiate the base colour amongst selected notes.
How are you getting on with the selected note/key when you use the theme as it is?
Last edited by White Tie; 11-18-2019 at 02:21 PM.
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11-18-2019, 01:45 PM
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#14
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Pixel Pusher
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Your reasoning, please?
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If you have a suggestion, please do make it. I am asking for it, and I welcome it. However, If I do not find your suggestion persuasive, please try to accept that with good grace. I do not have the time nor the inclination to explain everything, sorry.
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11-18-2019, 01:56 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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In the time it took you to write that you could have also written a succint explanation that is more informative than "I disagree".
If screenshots from other hosts that I just posted aren't persuasive enough, I am absolutely flabbergasted.
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11-18-2019, 01:58 PM
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#16
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Pixel Pusher
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
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That is not correct.
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11-18-2019, 02:14 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie
How are you getting on with the selected note/key when you use the theme as it is?
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Right know it is ok for me, no problems, better than Reaper 5.
I have to admit that dark is good for my eyes.
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11-18-2019, 02:20 PM
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#18
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Pixel Pusher
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
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I'm going to bring the unselected colour up in brightness a little for the next version, which will bring it closer to the selected state, so please keep an eye one that once I've posted it and let me know if its becoming a problem.
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11-18-2019, 02:23 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Unselected notes don't need more brightness. If anything, they need a bit less saturation so you can work with them for longer hours on end. Currently I find the selected state too bright, and unselected state too dark (coloring by MIDI channel).
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11-18-2019, 03:02 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Black Forest
Posts: 5,054
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@White Tie, I agree with ED here. A uniform look of the ME would make a lot of sense in terms of consistency. Why not take the arrange as a good example? The "borders" (toolbar space, empty space, etc..) are here dark as well:
(pardon my real bad drawing and the huge screenshots, but I wanted them "side by side")
https://i.imgur.com/IdFzN1q.png
So, wouldn't it make sense (as mentioned, in terms of consistency) to have a smiliar pattern with the ME?
https://i.imgur.com/BIm3RNU.png
Last edited by White Tie; 11-18-2019 at 03:18 PM.
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11-18-2019, 03:26 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 49
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Installed and tested, I too feel like the bright side panels are rather distracting, especially since it's a lot of unimportant dead space that should not be attracting my attention.
Additionally, I don't think it gives off a cohesive impression, it rather looks like only parts of the ME was themed. Sorry :S
Love the background on the editing area for notes and CC however, that is spot on.
Commenting on the note color map, as it was mentioned in the OP, I'm personally no fan of the use of brown and blue, my perfect note color map goes from green through yellow to red only.
But that's a personal preference, and non-issue as we can replace the color map easily ourselves.
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11-18-2019, 03:58 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 876
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If we can’t have full blown ‘Darth Vader' -mode, then at least darker or damped sides on the editor, pleeease;-) Just joking, honestly I think it will match the theme better, more homogeneous.
But,
a dark Window bg has a consequence also for modal windows. Tab text and knobs will have to be inverted, which is possible of cause, except for the damned knobs backgrounds…
Finally I would consider the window scroll sliders using the dark v5 template.
On a note, CC color 3 and 8 is too close, and CC 10 is almost invisible, se notes,
Other than that, I really like the feel of it:
https://ibb.co/ft3FsZ6
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11-18-2019, 04:19 PM
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#23
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Pixel Pusher
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhelixK
a dark Window bg has a consequence also for modal windows.
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Indeed
But if its more fun for anyone to pretend its just me being obtuse, be my guest. But don't bother doing it here, because it won't be changing.
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11-18-2019, 04:32 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,701
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I'm with ED and Stevie. As someone who spends almost the entire day in the midi editor 24/7, the greenish highlight is a no go for me. Not only is it very visually distracting but it can mistakenly convey false information.
The midi editor is a little bit of a different animal as it is conveying a lot of information in a condensed space. Much of the time, you are trying to sort that information with a glance and when there is something like a green highlight amongst the notes, it is very hard to distinguish, especially with all of the other color information. So it can easily get confused with other notes and the like and makes it hard to differentiate information.
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11-18-2019, 04:42 PM
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#25
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Pixel Pusher
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
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I think you're talking about something different? But if you mean the cyan-grey surround, that's not going to change.
Do you mean the active note indicator? Because I think that's nuts as well, but a very accomplished user made a very compelling case for it, I would love to hear counter argument.
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11-18-2019, 04:52 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Terra incognita
Posts: 7,670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
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Thanks for the example links ED. Some of them didn't show the whole DAW GUI for the reference, just the MIDI editor. But from what I saw, they followed a bigger overall color scheme (theme), no surprise there. Not counting the things we cannot control with themes, I don't think we are that far away here.
Logic Pro was actually a good example of what we already almost have in Reaper. Track and mixer panels and the piano roll panel are all lighter, while the arrange and editor areas are darker. Just a tad darker piano roll panel and track list would make Reaper have a similar design.
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11-18-2019, 04:55 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie
I think you're talking about something different? But if you mean the cyan-grey surround, that's not going to change.
Do you mean the active note indicator? Because I think that's nuts as well, but a very accomplished user made a very compelling case for it, I would love to hear counter argument.
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I don't mind the note indicator so much. There's really only one set of information there so it's pretty clear to me. More the cyan-grey. Having a distinct color for that as opposed to something like just grey or more neutral is going to always clash with the velocity color map and make it hard to distinguish and visually distract (e.g. a red note with a cyan highlight).
That's the kind of thing that is hard to deal with when you are in the midi editor constantly. The eyes basically just lose it after a while (again because the information is so dense and there is so much to pick out). Anyway, just feedback from someone stuck in the music editor all day.
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11-19-2019, 12:00 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhelixK
But,
a dark Window bg has a consequence also for modal windows. Tab text and knobs will have to be inverted, which is possible
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The solution is to accept that and darken the background color for everything, then, and tweak other colors to fit that. It will make things look a lot more consistent and, well, usable. And you won't go dizzy after trying to squint to see things because something is grating on your eyes so much.
https://stash.reaper.fm/36713/tR7dLlB.png
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11-19-2019, 12:45 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,943
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I find it difficult to see the MIDI notes in your last example without squinting. Plus the arrange view looks like a nightmare since the items are so bright and saturated.
I think you need to consider the possibility there isn't one perfect solution for this.
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11-19-2019, 12:47 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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The case I was trying to show is about the background color around windows etc. being in one consistent color. Disregard the track and item colors as they are, that wasn't what I was trying to showcase (plus this is adjustable as well, I have it less saturated these days).
The notes are semitransparent because some belong to overlaid secondary tracks. This is how it actually looks when MIDI item is editable:
https://i.imgur.com/Tk97ez6.png
But that is, again, beside the point I was trying to make.
Last edited by EvilDragon; 11-19-2019 at 12:53 AM.
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11-19-2019, 01:03 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,943
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I find some of that difficult to track with my eyes too.
You'd probably hate the way my MIDI editor looks with the changes I've made. Then again I like having a "mid-grey" on the right side, because that's the sort of color (slightly different shades) I use for the background of the MIDI editor. I use mid-grey shades for the arrange view background too. That way I can either choose to go light or dark with items, notes, etc. and I have lots of room to adjust colors/hues/saturation. The only things I don't see well are notes/items which are mid-grey shades without much saturation, but I'd never consciously make notes or items those colors.
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11-19-2019, 01:07 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Do post a screenshot (ME and arrange)!
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11-19-2019, 01:57 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
The solution is to accept that and darken the background color for everything, then, and tweak other colors to fit that. It will make things look a lot more consistent and, well, usable. And you won't go dizzy after trying to squint to see things because something is grating on your eyes so much.
https://stash.reaper.fm/36713/tR7dLlB.png
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Yes I does require a little tweaking, but themes and windows can work using darker or mid-toned backgrounds. Some general objects needs adjustment or corrected implementation in regard to transparency and appearance. Here some examples:
https://ibb.co/mJmvtzr
For production I/we use our own theme here, it’s mostly built on Rado as well. I've made three different intensities of it, equally tempered in daylight as well as in night time.
Hey, I just got an idea for the dev team, how about a ‘dynamic’ theme asset that follows time of day?!
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11-19-2019, 03:08 AM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,180
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The Midi Editor is looking a lot more usable now thank you.
Having the bits of piano roll outside the item limits looking dark keeps the eye pretty much focused on the content
My eyes are so used to Imperial in the arrange but the midi editor for this theme is much better and I'll probably move the colours over when I get some time, albeit with darker selected notes and brighter unselected
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11-19-2019, 03:36 AM
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#35
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Pixel Pusher
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
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I will not be changing the cyan-grey backround. I 100% guarantee it. It will either be unchanged as it is now, or it will be reverted to the V5 MIDI Editor. My part in that discussion is over, though please feel free to have it elsewhere without me.
I do not have the luxury of pretending that there aren't serious problems with the way Reaper draws all-dark themes. I've made several of them. I'm either going to make a mixed-tone ME work, or its going to be light becaue of a V5 revert. If anyone thinks I haven't thought it through, or that the ability to notice 'things that look the same look more nice' makes you an expert on design, please take this as my unchanging answer : pffft. And that's me being polite.
If you want to now move the diuscssion on to 'actually, the way Reaper draws all-dark themes is OK, better than this' or to start making Feature Requests for Reaper about it, let me stop you there. Do not. Just no. I will start, regrettably, deleting posts. Which would be a real shame.
If you think everything about the current V6 ME is perfect except the cyan-grey backgrounds, excellent. We are done. If not, I invite and welcome your input on other matters, there is very important work to be done here.
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11-19-2019, 04:24 AM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: They put me in a home.
Posts: 3,432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Dark themed ME is absolutely necessary, IMHO. You'll find many working composers who just can't work with all the brightness from a light themed ME for longer hours.
Which one seems less tiring for you to look at - and, more importantly, easier to discern what is what? These are all random notes and CCs, but it is a VERY realistic scenario for the working composer dealing with many MIDI tracks/channels. This has to look good/flattering/easy to discern. Right now the colormap could use some improvements in making that happen.
CCs for MIDI channel 1 are extremely hard to see, the dark purple has to go. But overall color scheme is MUCH MUCH BETTER than the drab bright theme that was in v5 theme.
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I am one of those working folks who cannot
But I'm optimistic about V6 because I have faith. ReaFaith
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47.8% of statistics are made up.
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11-19-2019, 04:30 AM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie
If you think everything about the current V6 ME is perfect except the cyan-grey backgrounds, excellent. We are done. If not, I invite and welcome your input on other matters, there is very important work to be done here.
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I can't say it is perfect.
for some reason when I'm looking at ME in reaper it looks a bit drafty compare to FLstudio's piano roll, but I can't say exactly what is the reason.
maybe it's just me, but I really see a big difference. fl's ME looks more "complete".
maybe with your knowledge in graphics and theming you will notice the differences better than me.
https://www.image-line.com/support/f.../pianoroll.htm
https://www.image-line.com/support/f...ll_general.png
Last edited by Reflected; 11-19-2019 at 04:41 AM.
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11-19-2019, 05:38 AM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: They put me in a home.
Posts: 3,432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
The solution is to accept that and darken the background color for everything, then, and tweak other colors to fit that. It will make things look a lot more consistent and, well, usable. And you won't go dizzy after trying to squint to see things because something is grating on your eyes so much.
https://stash.reaper.fm/36713/tR7dLlB.png
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I agree that this is the best solution.
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47.8% of statistics are made up.
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11-19-2019, 05:56 AM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Sunny Siberian Islands
Posts: 957
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Velocity color display looks great and very informative. One nitpicking - low levels of velocity (approximately below 15) are poorly visible and almost merge with a dark background.
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11-19-2019, 05:58 AM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 2,588
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Channel colors need more differentiation, preferably in hue.
pic - up/down channels 1,2,3,4; left-right unselected/selected
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