~Help!~ Tempo Maps are driving me crazy!

Skier · 09-21-2012, 03:04 PM

Hi All,
I'm at my wits end here...

All I want to do is insert the contents of part of one project in the middle of another. Simple I thought....

Each project has got complex tempo maps and midi and audio on multiple tracks.

1) I've tried copying and pasting - but the tempo map doesn't come over.

2) I've tried exporting selection to midi with tempo map - but on inserting the midi the tempo map seems to replace the current one - also the audio doesn't come over (obviously)

Please don't tell me I need to build the tempo map by hand and manually copy each track as a new item?!

Please Help!

Thanks,
Scott

hopi · 09-21-2012, 03:14 PM

are you then trying to combine tempo maps from one project with tempo maps in another? don't see how that would work really but...

you could try this...

open both projects at same time... like in two tabs...

save the one you want to keep working on with save as under a new name and folder and copy everyting into that [let's be safe]

go to the one you want to get t maps from... find the section of the map you want to get out... select all those points and use normal control C to copy them...

go back to other project and move edit cursor to where you want to paste in those points and use normal control V to paste them...

repeat as needs, ... bake at 350 degrees for 30 mins or until done...

Skier · 09-21-2012, 03:24 PM

No - I'm not trying to combine tempo maps.#

1) I've got 50 bars from another project that I simply want to insert at a specific point

2) I've added 50 bars of empty space to put it in

3) I only want the tempo changes inserted in the 50 bars

4) I don't want to affect anything after that 50 bars - ie. the time base will have to move as the tempo changes - but the beats will be the same.

Help?!!

hopi · 09-21-2012, 03:25 PM

see edited post above
I just tested that and it seems to work ok

suggest you drop a marker where you want the 50 bars to start in the real project so you can get there easily...

Skier · 09-21-2012, 03:33 PM

Ok - I'm being stupid - How do I select the tempo markers?

Doh - found it - I've opened the 'Tempo Envelope'

I'll give it a go....

hopi · 09-21-2012, 03:59 PM

right... you have to have the master track showing in the tcp... then clk the trim button and make visible the tempo track env...

that is where you want to copy from and paste to...

this should get you what you need... you should also be able to drag and drop your other items from one project to the other [pretty sure] but if not... save them out as appropriate [consolidated or whatever] and drag them into the project as needed

foxAsteria · 09-21-2012, 04:01 PM

Don't forget about timebase in project settings. Defines how items respond to tempo changes. Imo, this is the most broken aspect of Reaper, but somehow few of us are affected by it.

The best way to copy all that tempo marker information for a section is to make a Region out of it. But I'm not sure if you can copy a region from one project to another.

hopi · 09-21-2012, 07:37 PM

ummm region copy good idea let's test that... brb

foxAsteria · 09-21-2012, 07:45 PM

Doesn't look like you can copy regions between projects. Really could use some actions for cut, copy and paste of regions, since they are the only way I've found to move a group of markers around. Actually, the secret Project-in-Project feature might be useful here... Gotta test that out now...

Edit: Ok well it turns out I don't have a strong grasp on how that feature is supposed to work.

hopi · 09-21-2012, 08:28 PM

I can copy regions between projects just fine... but a few pointers:

open both projects in tabs

make a region you want to copy...

if you don't know... make a time selection and hit shift R... that makes the region... and later dbl clk on the region will bring back the time selection...

ok... show the master track and it's tempo env.

now there is an action to select all items in time selection... also another to select all items on selected tracks in time selection...

run the one you want so all items get selected

use normal copy keys

go to the other project and put your edit cursor where you want to paste on the timeline and use normal paste keys

seems to work here

foxAsteria · 09-21-2012, 08:36 PM

Hopi, are you sure you are able to copy the entire region with markers from project to project? It sounds like you are simply copying the contents of the region. I had suggested regions because they collect the markers in addition to the items. Hopefully I misunderstand, that would be great.

PiP will do the trick, but it seems to contain an entire project within the bounds of an item and I cant find how to get back to the original project after double clicking the project-item. Feature is probably incomplete, since it's still a big secret.

hopi · 09-21-2012, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PooFox

Hopi, are you sure you are able to copy the entire region with markers from project to project? It sounds like you are simply copying the contents of the region. I had suggested regions because they collect the markers in addition to the items. Hopefully I misunderstand, that would be great.

PiP will do the trick, but it seems to contain an entire project within the bounds of an item and I cant find how to get back to the original project after double clicking the project-item. Feature is probably incomplete, since it's still a big secret.

ummm did not test it with markers included, but it copies the items and the tempo map, and that was the OP's main issue as I understood it... no?

foxAsteria · 09-21-2012, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hopi

ummm did not test it with markers included, but it copies the items and the tempo map, and that was the OP's main issue as I understood it... no?

No, the "complex tempo maps" were the issue.

foxAsteria · 09-21-2012, 09:04 PM

Ok the best I can seem to come up with is to copy the items from your time selection in Project A as Hopi describes, insert them in Project B with project ripple on and switch project timebase to time. Turn ripple back off.

Make Tempo Envelope visible in both projects. Manually select the Tempo Envelope points from the time selection in Project A. (I don't know why there are no actions to select all points in the time selection...)

Select the Tempo Envelope in Project B, set the edit cursor to the start of the new section.

Paste your envelope points and then switch project timebase back to what you had before.

This is a crappy way of doing things admittedly, but it should work.

hopi · 09-21-2012, 11:08 PM

well it gets strange... what I thought was working nicely before now seems to be not working nicely at all....

I can copy and paste some tempo points but not others... very strange...

this might be a problem for a script guy to solve

foxAsteria · 09-21-2012, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hopi

this might be a problem for a script guy to solve

Yea, I think I might just thave to become one of those, since I've grown very tired of waiting for the many obvious (to me) improvements to be made. Then again, SWS are generally obliging with requests...

maxdis · 09-22-2012, 04:10 AM

this whole thread is a perfect example of the current Reaper situation: trying to build awkward workarounds to do things that should be BASICS, because missing/buggy/incomplete features...sorry for the rant, but I'm in the same OP situation, having many projects I can't work on anymore until Reaper got a reliable and safe tempo map management

foxAsteria · 09-22-2012, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxdis

this whole thread is a perfect example of the current Reaper situation: trying to build awkward workarounds to do things that should be BASICS, because missing/buggy/incomplete features...sorry for the rant, but I'm in the same OP situation, having many projects I can't work on anymore until Reaper got a reliable and safe tempo map management

I feel ya, but I came here because there weren't even workarounds in other DAWs. But yea, moving whole sections around is really not smooth at all. Should have been implemented in version 1 or 2. Devs just spent a couple months workin on it, but I still have problems galore. Unfortunately they are all so unpredictable and incomprehensible that I can't even put them into words... Wonder what happened to the OP anyway.

hopi · 09-22-2012, 09:32 AM

well you might drop a note to the SWS guys...

I did that awhile back, wanting something and learned it was already possible but that I did not understand how to do it...

It may be that a way to get this done does exist and I don't know yet how to do it.

Our user jnif is also way up on what is possible with scripting.

Skier · 09-25-2012, 12:28 PM

OP here again...This is still driving me crazy - I think I've got it, until I find out that there are subtle out of sync issues between my Midi and Audio Tracks.

I used to use Cakewalk - and never seemed to have this kind of pain.

I'll struggle on (for a bit more).

Tomm · 09-25-2012, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PooFox

Devs just spent a couple months workin on it, but I still have problems galore.

IME it was better before they worked on it. It's all rather futsy I must say

foxAsteria · 09-26-2012, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skier

OP here again...This is still driving me crazy - I think I've got it, until I find out that there are subtle out of sync issues between my Midi and Audio Tracks.

I find this often has to do with having grid snapping and item snapping on at the same time. Are you using a lot of small items and copying them around the project? That's what I do and I feel like I'm in the minority with these issues. But the problem as I understand it seems to stem from Reaper having no 'universal' timeline reference. The musical and time-based timelines make for some subtle discrepancies which are amplified as the project becomes more complex. But I might be wrong.

It just occurred to me that it might help to assign different timebases to your tracks (time for audio and beats for midi). Might be worth a try. But yea, frustrating as hell. I've given up trying to apply tempo changes during composition. I don't have the patience to be investigating what the fuck went wrong and at what point all the time. Midi and audio simply don't play well together.

maxdis · 09-27-2012, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PooFox

I find this often has to do with having grid snapping and item snapping on at the same time.

yes, it happened to me sometimes, thinking I'm snapping to grid and instead it snapped to time...I think the two kind of snaps should be visually differentiated, maybe using different colors for the snap line

but this is only a small part of the Reaper time problems...

Skier · 10-01-2012, 11:44 AM

Ok - Reaper Midi and Audio together is broken.
It just doesn't work.
Anyone who is considering using Reaper for Midi and Audio in the same project should use another product.

It sucks more than an aeroplane toliet.

Breeder · 10-01-2012, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skier

Ok - Reaper Midi and Audio together is broken.
It just doesn't work.
Anyone who is considering using Reaper for Midi and Audio in the same project should use another product.

It sucks more than an aeroplane toliet.

Hm...regarding tempo maps and midi/audio:

One audio item can have only one BPM...so that means if you want to have many tempo points across one item you have to split the item. There is even an action for that in latest SWS pre (SWS/BR: Split selected items at tempo markers)
Second problem is this: linear tempo transitions won't reflect on audio. Because as I said earlier: they can have only one BPM.

With midi items it's completely opposite - it obeys any tempo change anywhere.

Yes, it would be nice if cockos would implement something like audio warp on audio items but atm these are the workarounds.

Skier · 10-01-2012, 01:25 PM

Ok - I'll try the pre release

Can you explain why when moving items with ripple editing sometime moves the items, but the notes stay locked to the time line?

Breeder · 10-01-2012, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skier

Can you explain why when moving items with ripple editing sometime moves the items, but the notes stay locked to the time line?

I haven't experienced this. Can you post a licecap. You can host the resulting gif on https://stash.reaper.fm/ and link as an image here.

Better yet, create a bug report.

Skier · 10-01-2012, 02:35 PM

Here you are - you can see the notes in the moved item are staying still, but the item is moving around it.

https://stash.reaper.fm/14180/1.gif

Breeder · 10-01-2012, 02:58 PM

This is definitely not happening here! I guess you should create a bug report here: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?...ssuetypeid=bug

Make sure you include an example project (just the .rpp)

hopi · 10-01-2012, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skier

Here you are - you can see the notes in the moved item are staying still, but the item is moving around it.

https://stash.reaper.fm/14180/1.gif

I'm not sure about this but is that something about 'loop source' setting? see if you find it the info for the item

hopi · 10-01-2012, 08:02 PM

[IMG]http://**************/a/img222/8296/tempomidinotesmoving.gif[/IMG]

this is what I see...

again, clk info for the item and see if loop source is checked.. mine is

Skier · 10-02-2012, 12:52 AM

'Loop source' only controls if the item should wrapp around when you extend it - it has no effect on what's going on when I move the item.

gofer · 10-02-2012, 01:21 AM

Looks like your item drag performs "Move item edges but not contents".
I have no idea why that would happen other than mouse modifiers have been customized to do that. Check Preferences -> Mouse Modifiers in the contexts "Media item, left drag" and maybe "Media item, bottom half, left drag".

I can't reproduce by any other means than using "Move item edges but not contents" consciously, whether in ripple mode or not.

G-Sun · 10-02-2012, 04:46 AM

PiP ?

foxAsteria · 10-02-2012, 01:52 PM

We could macro our way out of this if there was only an action to target an envelope (like the tempo envelope) without clicking it first (I can't find one). Not to mention the action to "select all points in time selection" leaves out the point at the start of the time selection, which means it will not paste correctly unless done entirely manually. All actions must take place in a specific order as well.

Best solution IMO would be to have cut, copy and paste actions for Regions. If this FR doesn't exist, I can make it, but better for someone else to, since mine tend to be largely ignored (I probably over-explain things a bit?)

On a side note, I did discover it's possible to set your default project with a linear tempo envelope by default, so the changes are always gradual by default. More natural sounding than square, but still not real-world smooth.

Someday, maybe other curve shapes will be available. Yea, someday when Reaper's entire timebase paradigm makes a fundamental change... Probably one of the things the devs would have done differently in hindsight, I imagine.

foxAsteria · 10-03-2012, 02:54 PM

I made an FR. You could edit it into your first post if you want to help it

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4392

hopi · 10-03-2012, 03:50 PM

voted good

foxAsteria · 09-22-2013, 03:16 PM

could anyone add my fr to the OP? or should i start a separate discussion thread? regions need some love, they are awesome but have some problems.