09-11-2017, 01:56 AM | #1 |
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Dolby Atmos?
I am wondering can I use Dolby Atmos, With reaper and if so how?
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09-11-2017, 11:56 AM | #2 |
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09-11-2017, 01:19 PM | #3 |
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09-11-2017, 03:11 PM | #4 |
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ATMOS is part of a Sontaran plot to poison the atmosphere.
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09-11-2017, 04:45 PM | #5 |
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You can use ReaSurround to create a 7.1.2 mix. (7.1.4 being the recommended consumer delivery format) Automating movement in ReaSurround would be an excessive amount of work, as this isn't what it was designed for.
Yeah, wait for an official Atmos plugin. If it's anything like the one used in ProTools, it will be LOTS more intuitive. |
09-12-2017, 12:05 PM | #6 |
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You can produce a Dolby Atmos mix from an Ambisonic mix if you have the right decoder. In fact, you can output pretty much anything from an Ambisonic mix without needing to do dedicated mixes.
Since switching over to third order Ambisonics for all my mixes, I've found that producing other formats such as mono, stereo, 5.1, 7.1, 256.24.2 (ok, I made that one up) tends to work better than if I started in those other formats to begin with. You're basically producing an Ambisonic mix which sets up a soundfield on the chosen speaker configuration. A soundfield on stereo speakers sounds better than a native panned mix for the same format.
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09-12-2017, 12:25 PM | #7 | |
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The reason I mentioned it is because the decoder plugins I use from Blue Ripple Sound include a decoder labelled "Dolby Atmos". However, upon checking, they do have specific information on that decoder and it doesn't produce metadata and object information. It is primarily used for creating a bed to layer the objects on later. More info here... http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/new-712-support
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09-12-2017, 12:29 PM | #8 |
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It doesn't. I think what ReaDave means is that you can use Ambisonics to decode a 10-channel (7.1.2) "bed track" that will be compatible with Atmos. Obviously for object panning you would need the proper hardware/software from Dolby, which currently doesn't support use with Reaper
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09-12-2017, 12:48 PM | #9 | |
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Jeremy
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09-12-2017, 01:00 PM | #10 | |
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I first noticed this when producing a 5.1 output from an Ambisonic mix of a song I had previously mixed in 5.1. The new 5.1 downmix from the Ambisonic mix sounds FAR more spacious and is much more detailed basically because what is being heard is an Ambisonic soundfield created for a specific speaker arrangement.
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09-12-2017, 01:59 PM | #11 | |
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09-12-2017, 02:44 PM | #12 | ||
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I have one song uploaded that I've mixed in third order Ambisonics and am working on my biggest album project to date. This is also being mixed in third order and will be uploaded once complete. I currently have all the Ambisonic stuff on my synth website and am contemplating setting up either a dedicated site for it or just tidying up what is there already. Not sure which way I'll go with it yet. Anyway, the direct url to the Ambisonic section is via www.AmbisonicMusic.com
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07-23-2019, 03:21 PM | #13 | |
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07-24-2019, 09:16 PM | #14 | |
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I still need to tidy up the Ambisonic section of my website though!
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11-09-2020, 08:59 AM | #15 | |
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I just made a quick video showing how to setup the Dolby Production Suite to use it with Reaper, it works very well. However, there's a slight problem that I would like to overcome which is that Reaper does not seem able to handle more than 64 audio channels I/O while the Atmos renderer can use up to 130 channels. This is not too much of a problem for music use, but I discovered that the preferred way to sync the Atmos Renderer with Reaper is to use LTC rather than MTC as I show in the video. The reason being that LTC is sample accurate when MTC is only frame accurate. But, the Atmos Renderer seems to expect LTC on channel 129 (channels 1-128 being used for audio content), so Reaper cannot feed it :-( My video is at : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v5C7HIDMuY Regards, p@T |
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11-09-2020, 02:19 PM | #16 | |
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This may be a bit off topic but you might have an answer. How do ADM and Atmos deliverables intersect (if at all)? Does Atmos deliver as an ADM as an option? I notice that a number of the above mentioned Netflix resources have ADM BWF deliverables and have been watching that toolkit develop for a while. Thanks again for posting.
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11-10-2020, 09:48 AM | #17 | |
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I don't know how you are linking Reaper with the Atmos Renderer, but the 64 channels limit is for the busses, tracks, plugins and audio files ... which represents a real problem for me too! But you may get around it by using several hardware outputs in parallel. For example 1-64 for the first one and 65-128 for the second one, or just one for channel 130. It works well with soundcards and ReaRoute too. I guess that the limit might be 256 channels. |
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11-14-2020, 03:16 AM | #18 | |
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The high-end solution, know as the Mastering Suite, runs on a separate computer, Mac and Windows versions are available, and is on a Dante network. For the rest, you are perfectly right, using the direct hardware outputs is the way to go. Who really needs using the master track in such a configuration anyway... Have a nice week-end, p@t |
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11-14-2020, 03:22 AM | #19 | |
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When you record your final mix inside the renderer, it saves all information (audio + object metadata) in a .atmos file along with some xml files. From then on, the renderer will allow you to export to any format, including ADM. For instance, if you publish music through Avid Play, they will allow the upload for ADM for Tidal and Amazon Music which are the two platforms able to stream Atmos encoded files at present time. Have a nice week-end, p@T |
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11-25-2020, 02:27 AM | #20 | |
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And now that Nuendo 11 is on the way with fully integrated Atmos support on macOS *and* Windows (https://youtu.be/V8RYOBVsfSQ?t=885) I'm kinda suspecting that this might be Dolby's way forward. Integrating the Atmos renderer into third party DAWs gives them much more control and less things to worry about. But this also would mean, that Reaper users on Windows might never see any kind of Atmos support, because integrating Atmos like this involves very very large sums of money -.- |
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11-25-2020, 02:42 AM | #21 | |
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You can download it here : https://developer.dolby.com/tools-me...tes/downloads/ But, the Mastering Suite needs to run on a dedicated machine (Mac/Win) that receives and outputs audio via a Dante card. The Mac only version is the lower priced Production Suite that allows the rendering app to run on the same computer than the daw, connecting the two via a virtual device. And creating such a virtual device was quite easy on the Mac using CoreAudio, but seems to be a challenge on Win with ASIO. The "supported daws" such as PT, Nuendo and Pyramix only have the advantage of integrating a 3D Panner able to provide the Dolby Renderer with proper metadata for moving objects around. In other daws, such as Reaper, you have to use the (free) Dolby 3D panner VST plugin. Avid have just announced that the current (or next) version of Pro Tools will allow you to render ADM BWF files straight from the daw without having to "record" them in the Dolby app.But since ADM is an open-source format, that's not so much of a challenge. The BBC along with the EBU have also released the equivalent, developed specifically with and for Reaper : https://ear-production-suite.ebu.io/ Have a nice day, p@T |
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11-25-2020, 06:02 AM | #22 |
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OMFG thanks for pointing me towards the EAR suite! That's absolutely amazing and I'll give it a try asap. Only downside for me is the missing realtime binaural monitoring (I don't have a 7.1.2 speaker setup). However there's already an accompanying "NGA Binaural renderer" for offline conversion and since both tools are very new, I'm hoping for a future update. In the meantime I might try out DearVR monitor.
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11-25-2020, 06:45 AM | #23 | |
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In the meantime, I had confirmation that Nuendo 11 indeed has a native integration of the Dolby renderer, but without the real-time binaural rendering nor some export formats. Happy immersion ;-) |
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11-27-2020, 07:18 PM | #24 | |
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I will try ASAP with Dear VR Monitor, as I also don´t have an immersive speaker setup and need the Binaural monitoring. Thanks for posting it here. I did watch your videos on YT about setting up Reaper to the Dolby Atmos Renderer, really useful, thanks.
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12-01-2020, 04:57 AM | #25 | |
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I can also confirm what you are claiming here, we started mixing our (SoundFellas Labs) music and ambience libraries that we sell to Unity store with HOA two years ago and the results are amazing. Recently at SoundFellas Labs, we conducted a double-blind test with audiences of experienced and non-experienced listeners, to see the subjective perceived quality of various ambience recordings discreet channel recordings versus upmixed/downmixed versions of the same recordings through ambisonics and discrete surround VSTs. The clear winner was the ambisonics workflow as 60% of the listeners claimed a more immersive, clear, and precise representation of the environment, although in many cases the original discreet channel material was included in the listening session. Last edited by Joystick; 01-18-2021 at 10:42 AM. |
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01-18-2021, 01:30 AM | #27 | |||
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Ambisonics has trouble storing out-of-phase content, so as a side-effect mono downmixes sound better. Quote:
If you're using ReaSurround, it sucks for making 5.1 (but it's being addressed). If you have a GOOD surround panner & use it WELL, theoretically it should sound better due to less speaker bleed. I was trying to make a panner based on ambisonics last year & it was frustrating cuz it's almost impossible to make a source come out of 1 speaker only. Quote:
NB: it's discrete, not discreet discreet = hidden discrete = separated Last edited by junh1024; 01-18-2021 at 02:21 AM. |
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01-18-2021, 10:50 AM | #28 | ||
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I agree with the differences between ambisonics and discrete surround that you mention. We are working now on a big update of all our content to more contemporary standards, so we tackle this issue in two ways: 1) We use distance simulation and reverberation wet/dry re-balancing for our ambience kits, so that our ambisonic content sounds at the correct distance from the listener. 2) As we create our content through compositing, we use separate channels for the discrete multichannel exports, using a great surround panner Iosono's AnyMix Pro. That way we achieve best of both worlds and provide the proper material for each type of project. |
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01-23-2021, 11:26 AM | #29 |
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Just a general shout out for everyone here to go check out latest pre release for some fantastic reasurround 7.1.4 improvements!
Get latest and give it a test whilst it's hot and open to changes. Schwa has set up a dedicated thread for it too for feedback etc.
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01-23-2021, 11:45 AM | #30 |
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I've managed to do a Dolby Atmos mix from my HOA mix (via O3A 7.1.2 decoder), and I'm getting positional audio from the airpod pros when I playback the MP4 on an iOS device, which is very cool :-)
Weirdly if I look at the MP4 in QuickTime player it says it's 5.1 Dolby Digital Plus. If I import it into REAPER there are six channels. Can't for the life of me figure out how to output an MP4 with the proper atmos mix, Although I'm wondering if the extra channels could be magically included in this signal somehow. Any Atmos experts have an idea? Should I be seeing 7.1.2 or 7.1.4, 10/12 channels output? |
01-23-2021, 10:47 PM | #31 | |
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Going there now, thanks for the heads up! |
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01-23-2021, 11:19 PM | #32 | |
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This is because, as a pipeline, Dolby Atmos can carry up to 128 channels which can be beds (ready made discrete channel stems) or objects (single point sources with 3D animation data over time). At the other end, in the theater, the Dolby Atmos hardware servers/decoders can support real-time computation and rendering of all the content into up to 64 channels which feed speakers that are available in the theater hall. This happens in real-time depending on the specific speaker configuration of each hall. This huge amount of data is distributed via DCP and MXF standards. To capture the creative intent and be able to translate it to any listening scenario, Dolby states in their early white papers that in addition to rendering channel-based theatrical deliverables, the Dolby Atmos master file can be used to generate other deliverables such as consumer multichannel or stereo mixes. Via profiling and conditional metadata, Dolby Atmos allow controlled easy renderings to such mixes. If I understood correctly, you decoded a higher order ambisonic soundfield into a 7.1.2 discrete channel bed. That is probably encoded through the process you used to make the MP4 file into a 6 channel lossy encoded format as the one I describe in the beginning of my port. What you hear is not full 3d object-based audio as you didn't had that information to begin with (again, if I understood your workflow correctly). This is our go to (at SoundFellas my company) for minimum to medium budget film works that want Atmos playback but doesn't really need the separate 3D objects. Only bed is a perfectly viable solution for any production that doesn't include significant 3D sources and will be probably consumed only on mobile/domestic settings. If you get the 7.1.2 or 7.1.4 test files from here: https://www.heimkino-atmos.de/Sonsti...und-Testtoene/ you can check it yourself. I trust the free utility "MediaInfo" from here https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo to validate the files. And here's what it reports about the audio on the 7.1.4 test file form the link above: ID : 2 Format : E-AC-3 JOC Format/Info : Enhanced AC-3 with Joint Object Coding Commercial name : Dolby Digital Plus with Dolby Atmos Codec ID : ec-3 Duration : 12 min 20 s Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 448 kb/s Channel(s) : 6 channels Channel layout : L R C LFE Ls Rs Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz Frame rate : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF) Bit depth : 16 bits Compression mode : Lossy Stream size : 39.6 MiB (22%) Service kind : Complete Main Default : Yes Alternate group : 2 Encoded date : UTC 2016-10-21 00:36:38 Tagged date : UTC 2016-10-21 00:36:38 Complexity index : 12 Number of dynamic objects : 11 Bed channel count : 1 channel Bed channel configuration : LFE Hope I helped :-) Last edited by Joystick; 01-23-2021 at 11:35 PM. |
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01-24-2021, 07:03 AM | #33 | |
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Any chances the developers could make "reasurround" as track panner when the track is routed to a multichannel master track, instead of it being inserted as an FX? Thanks!
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01-24-2021, 07:49 AM | #34 | |
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...but there is a new action that inserts a new track with it as an embedded panner by default in the TCP.
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11-24-2022, 10:31 PM | #35 |
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are there any dolby atmos encoder plugin solutions for reaper in 2022?
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11-24-2022, 11:58 PM | #36 | |
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https://www.avid.com/plugins/dolby-a...oduction-suite There are also the EBU/BBC initiative, free and open-source but not so easy to handle : https://ear-production-suite.ebu.io/ Or the MPEG-H suite from Fraunhofer, which can be accessed after contacting them: https://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/en/ff/...ing/mpegh.html The easy route is the first one from Dolby, but it only runs on Mac. There is a Windows solution too, the Dolby Atmos Mastering Suite, more pricey and with more features for room setup but it needs to run on a dedicated Windows machine linked to the mixing computers (Mac or Windows) via AoIP network (Dante). Hope this helps ;-) |
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11-25-2022, 11:04 AM | #37 | |
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The EAR and MPEG-H are surround formats comparable to Atmos, but as I understand it, the EAR suite will import Atmos audio but will not export it. Does the MPEG-H suite allow you to author Atmos files?
I'm on PC, which is a major disadvantage, and I don't want to set up a second PC for rendering using Dante. I'm just getting started with Atmos, but the only path I have found that allows me to use Reaper is to do all of my mixing and routing in Reaper, and from there output fully mixed stems of each surround bed channel, and also the various objects. From there I will use Davinci Resolve Studio to create the actual Atmos output files. (Resolve Studio has the Atmos generator built-in.) It's pretty easy to pan / set up the various bed channel outputs, but I will need to do any object panning in Resolve, obviously. If there is an alternate solution on PC I would love to know about it. If the MPEG-H pluginscan generate Atmos files I have no need to use Resolve at all. Quote:
Last edited by drichard; 11-25-2022 at 11:10 AM. |
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11-25-2022, 11:57 AM | #38 | |
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It would be track by track.
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11-25-2022, 07:42 PM | #39 | |
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That's an interesting concept. Ill definitely investigate it. Initially I don't expect to do a lot of object panning automation other than setting the object location in space, but as I get into it more maybe I'll change my mind and use more dynamic panning. Resolve seems like it has a decent surround panner, but I have not dived in very deep yet.
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11-26-2022, 08:42 AM | #40 | |
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I must confess that I did not try the Fraunhofer suite, since I got it as I had no time for that. From their documentation, I'm afraid that it can convert dolby adm files but not the other way around.
FAQ : https://mpegh.com/info/#1604315177908-df8dc760-69ae Tools : https://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/en/ff/...tware/mas.html What are the actual deliverables that you need ? Music only for Apple/Amazon/Tidal or films (as you mentioned Resolve Studio) ? ADM files come in various flavors, but they are pretty well standardized. At present, I'm afraid that "true" Dolby format will need Dolby software (or Pro Tools or Nuendo I believe). But there's hope. There have been rumours that at first Cockos rejected Dolby's integration as the legal part was not in line with Cockos' philosophy. It seems that Dolby is still interested in having Reaper directly importing/exporting Dolby ADM (after all, it's just about getting some textual metadata in the right format), so things might brighten up in a not too distant future. Quote:
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