Track List Discussion Continued..

[gofer]

As of now my main use case for multiple channels in a single item are instrument sections. I prefer to have eg Celli, Viola etc directly accessible without switching between active items, so I can edit them together with ease. (Apart from the CC, which are for reasons Evan mentioned currently not good at all for multichannel). I will do that on a single track using individual MIDI channels routed to the instruments.

Well, for now that is.

It might change with the enhancements to come, but I actually doubt it. It will depend on whether it's really more comfortable to edit. Just one example situation: If I decide that a note or line which is currently being played by the Violin should rather come from the Viola, I can do that very quickly by just switching note channels. Using multiple items I have to cut the notes from one item and paste them into the other one, or I switch to the arrange view, split the part and move it to the Violas track (which opens a big MIDI-item-split can full of worms).

With the current incarnation of it in pre8 I'll certainly stay with the single track method and would appreciate enhancement directed towards operating multiple MIDI channels. Not sure whether I'd benefit from them reflected in the track list, but why not have the ability? A channel readout on events I would certainly like and use.

My own biggest wish in this regard and a huge help would be a marquee selection that selects only events with the current "draw new events" channel, ignoring other events even if they are visible. That would also make editing multichannel CC much easier - even with the current CC lanes.

I agree they should concentrate on the multi-item/track-based editing enhancement for now, but I doubt that it will replace the multichannel workflow for me. Both don't exclude each other, they complement (in a bigger instrumentation I will have multiple tracks with multiple channels for the different instrument groups, for strings, brass, woodwinds and so on).

[mikeroephonics]

How about this:
If the 'Track/Item List' gets developed further (with more buttons/midi ch. info, etc.) each element of the 'track/Item List' can be shown/hidden in Preferences.

Don't want nor need the MIDI Channel info?
No problem. Just hide it in Preferences.

Only need record, Mute & Solo buttons on the Track/Item List?
Set it in Preferences.

REAPER allows for this on Media Items.
It would be just as welcome on the 'track/Item List'.
If you don't like or need a button in it, just hide it.

Note: I'm calling it the 'Track/Item List' because that's what it does (aside from filtering visibility on the top portion of the window.)

Bonus note: I'd personally keep all buttons/fields visible in the 'Track/Item List'. I'm just trying to keep these ideas optional so they don't interfere with workflows which do not require them.

[jnif]

Originally Posted by gofer

As of now my main use case for multiple channels in a single item are instrument sections. I prefer to have eg Celli, Viola etc directly accessible without switching between active items, so I can edit them together with ease. (Apart from the CC, which are for reasons Evan mentioned currently not good at all for multichannel). I will do that on a single track using individual MIDI channels routed to the instruments.

Well, for now that is.

It might change with the enhancements to come, but I actually doubt it. It will depend on whether it's really more comfortable to edit. Just one example situation: If I decide that a note or line which is currently being played by the Violin should rather come from the Viola, I can do that very quickly by just switching note channels. Using multiple items I have to cut the notes from one item and paste them into the other one, or I switch to the arrange view, split the part and move it to the Violas track (which opens a big MIDI-item-split can full of worms).

This is how you do it in Studio One:

Something similar would be very useful also in Reaper. To make it really fast there could be also actions like "Transfer selected notes to previous/next track".
Again, no need to use multiple MIDI channels.

Originally Posted by mikeroephonics

How about this:
If the 'Track/Item List' gets developed further (with more buttons/midi ch. info, etc.) each element of the 'track/Item List' can be shown/hidden in Preferences.

Don't want nor need the MIDI Channel info?
No problem. Just hide it in Preferences.

Yes, that is OK.
But how exactly would you show those MIDI channel related indicators/controls?
It is not so easy.
They should be meaningful, logical and user-friendly. And they should not waste lots of screen real estate (this is a requirement even when these "things" can be optionally hiden).

There was already big debate about including item-level stuff into the "track list". And now you are proposingn to add note-level stuff in the same GUI panel. Is that really feasible?

jnif

[Evan]

Originally Posted by jnif

This is how you do it in Studio One...

Again, no need to use multiple MIDI channels.

I assume that Studio One does not have the current routing (MIDI feedback) limitations of Reaper, that largely affect multi-timbral instrument setups. And I assume it also has various track types vs. Reaper's universal track type (which affects the organization of MIDI tracks, and instrument multi-out tracks)? And maybe S.O. does not require you to keep MIDI tracks armed at all times to be able to use your MIDI controllers. And then maybe delete the unwanted takes captured in the tracks you were not intending to (because they were armed, unless you were willing to dig in the right-click menu options to set the track to 'appear armed but actually monitor only'). Not to start a comparison but I am willing to bet S.O. has some other workflow paths better sorted.

Originally Posted by jnif

Yes, that is OK.
But how exactly would you show those MIDI channel related indicators/controls?
It is not so easy.

One proposition:



Assuming each entry in that list is an item. You could show a collapsible panel with:

a) active (occupied) MIDI channels with maybe a bright color or a box around them
b) option to mute/solo individual channels, maybe via keyboard shortcuts

If the above item list is wide enough, then perhaps the midi channels can all be in a horizontal layout next to the item entry rather than below.

And the channels functionality can be further enhanced in the MIDI editor also with stuff like:

- show midi ch. on each note/event
- show selected events channels (separated by comas if multiple) in an info line
- midi channel modes (use filter, 1 through 16, all, all in sub-lanes) for the CC lanes...

etc..

[mikeroephonics]

Originally Posted by jnif

There was already big debate about including item-level stuff into the "track list". And now you are proposingn to add note-level stuff in the same GUI panel. Is that really feasible?
jnif

I think so. Just hide what you don't want/need on this:

[jnif]

Originally Posted by Evan

One proposition:



Assuming each entry in that list is an item. You could show a collapsible panel with:

a) active (occupied) MIDI channels with maybe a bright color or a box around them
b) option to mute/solo individual channels, maybe via keyboard shortcuts

If the above item list is wide enough, then perhaps the midi channels can all be in a horizontal layout next to the item entry rather than below.

That is a good start.
I still see some limitations like no room for proper MIDI channel names.
Also showing MIDI channel colors (optionally editable) would make it more user-friendly.

As an alternative solution, maybe there could be a separate larger "Active item inspector panel" where all these MIDI channel details could be shown. It would show details for the single active item only. Would that be OK? Or do you need to see the MIDI channel indicators/controls for multiple items at the same time?

jnif

[gofer]

That context menu could possibly win me over (assumed the whole new feature set will work good enough), although I don't enjoy surfing menus much. At the moment I just hit a button/key which does switch selected notes plus the "new events channel" to the channel I want.
Still, a dynamically populated transfer menu (I figure it contains the tracks which are marked editable) is a good idea and useful anyway.

[nofish]

Originally Posted by jnif

But even in this case manually storing MIDI channel information to every MIDI event is not the best solution.

It is much better and convenient to just write all your MIDI data on channel 1 and let the DAW manage mappings to proper articulations using something like "Expression maps" in Cubase.
A very nice example of how it works can be seen in this video:
http://player.vimeo.com/video/37377379

Agreed, I'd like to have something like this in Reaper and I'd certainly use it.

[Evan]

Originally Posted by jnif

That is a good start.
I still see some limitations like no room for proper MIDI channel names.
Also showing MIDI channel colors (optionally editable) would make it more user-friendly.

I think colors would make it very distracting, because there's already color-coding for tracks/items in that screenshot. As for channel names... perhaps in a more expansive layout? Not sure about that. But for a compact layout as in your screenshot, a simple 16 channel matrix should work wonders. With visual indicator in each channel for:

- contains data or is empty
- muted or normal
- currently active/editable

Originally Posted by jnif

As an alternative solution, maybe there could be a separate larger "Active item inspector panel" where all these MIDI channel details could be shown. It would show details for the single active item only. Would that be OK? Or do you need to see the MIDI channel indicators/controls for multiple items at the same time?

An active item inspector panel would be great, not sure as an alternative to the item manager mockup though. There can be many different implementations, but as long as we understand the problems we're trying to solve, we should be able to reach a satisfactory result.

Some of these problems are: expose all MIDI events to easy and efficient editing through the MIDI editor. Minimize hiding of important editing parameters in right-click menus or floating windows. Make stuff easy to see. Minimize risk of editing the wrong things by mistake.

[Tod]

I still think it only makes sense to have any Midi Channel filter separate from the Track List. That way you can have either one, the other, or both up and they would compliment one another.

[Evan]

I agree Tod, but this is not the filter we are talking about... it's the channel data for each item. The current existing filter is a separate topic. Just wanting to make things clear.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Evan

I agree Tod, but this is not the filter we are talking about... it's the channel data for each item. The current existing filter is a separate topic. Just wanting to make things clear.

Yes, I realize that, it took a while to establish "Track List" so now I guess we need something for the Midi Channel list. Of course the devs might come up with something totally different for either or both, but that's okay, we just need something to pass between us at the moment.

[Tod]

You know, not much has been said about the CC-Controllers and how exactly they should be displayed?

I think gofer alluded to "only the active track's CCs would be available for editing" and I think that is indeed how it has to be.

But as you change active tracks/items, how should the CC-Lanes be shown? I think they should definitely reflect each tracks/items last CC-lane assignment(s). If they havn't been assigned anything, then they probably should just show Velocity.

Even so, then how should the Visible/Editible CC-lanes be displayed? Either not seen at all or very ghost like?

[Evan]

Originally Posted by Tod

You know, not much has been said about the CC-Controllers and how exactly they should be displayed?

Yes not much discussion on CC lanes...

With multi-channel and multi-item editing it's clear we need something more advanced than a single generic Expression lane showing everything at once.

Perhaps a CC-lane can have a split view, going into multiple sub-lanes, each for a channel or an item. And maybe each lane needs additional filter controls controls, a channel filter (1, 2, 3, 4... all or multi). And maybe an item selector. Or at least an item label of some sort.

[mikeroephonics]

I'd just like to point out that the logical relationships between
Track controls & Item controls in the Track List is rather deep &
complicated. The state of each control at any time needs to be
taken into consideration.

A few examples:
- Hidden Items should not be editable if selected

- Should muted Items be audible when entering in new MIDI Notes?
(a preference would be nice, but what should the default be?)

- Should a muted & hidden Item be audible when clicking in the
MIDI Editor Note Area/Piano Roll?
(a preference would be nice, but what should the default be?)

I started working on a Track List FR a month ago, and have modified
it to be more consistent with the Track List implemented into v4.33pre2.

I'd still like to see a [pencil] button added to Track & Item controls
to allow the user to draw NEW MIDI events to MULTIPLE Items in a
single mouse gesture/action.

The addition of a [pencil] button creates a more complicated situation,
but if implemented wisely, allows for Rapid composition.

I've held off on uploading this FR to the forum, mainly because it's
such a large request & deserves it's own thread. I'll probably wait
to upload it (to the Feature Request Forum) once the Track List is
implemented into an official REAPER build.

Stay tuned...

[xpander]

Originally Posted by mikeroephonics

- Should muted Items be audible when entering in new MIDI Notes?
(a preference would be nice, but what should the default be?)

I can't imagine wanting to enter events into an item while not wanting to hear them also. Inaudible when moving, hiding or removing a muted item, not when I'd actually edit its contents.

- Should a muted & hidden Item be audible when clicking in the MIDI Editor Note Area/Piano Roll?
(a preference would be nice, but what should the default be?)

Muted & hidden item is visible (when selected) in ME editing area and there's no way to tell visually it is muted either...not just from ME itself. Maybe this would need some improvement first?

[musicbynumbers]

As for the CC lanes.

I'm also starting to lean towards CC's having an option to be interpolated like automation envelopes are as I'm finding it a bit difficult sometimes to get out of the current system the control needed using the current system.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by mikeroephonics

I'd still like to see a [pencil] button added to Track & Item controls
to allow the user to draw NEW MIDI events to MULTIPLE Items in a
single mouse gesture/action.

The addition of a [pencil] button creates a more complicated situation,
but if implemented wisely, allows for Rapid composition.

Hi Mike,

Could you explain exactly why and how you would use this.

I could see using it for unison parts but that would only be very, very, occasional.

I could also see using it to put notes on multiple tracks and then selecting those various tracks and move the notes around to fit a chord or arrangement.

However, those notes could easily be copied and then pasted in the corresponding tracks.

I guess I'm not sure either of those scenarios justify adding yet another box to take up space and/or complicate things more than they are. Unless of course, we do indeed get the options to select which elements we want.

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

As for the CC lanes.

I'm also starting to lean towards CC's having an option to be interpolated like automation envelopes are as I'm finding it a bit difficult sometimes to get out of the current system the control needed using the current system.

It would definitely be nice if the selected CC lanes would be remembered for each active track.

[mikeroephonics]

Originally Posted by Tod

Hi Mike,
Could you explain exactly why and how you would use this.
I could see using it for unison parts but that
would only be very, very, occasional.

For unison parts, yes, but also...

Originally Posted by Tod

I could also see using it to put notes on multiple tracks
and then selecting those various tracks and move the
notes around to fit a chord or arrangement.

Yes, this is another reason I'd like multiple Item drawing.
Here's an example:

Scenario:
- 4 Tracks/instruments
Track 1 = Violins <-- [draw-enabled] = on
Track 2 = Violas <-- [draw-enabled] = on
Track 3 = Cellos <-- [draw-enabled] = on
Track 4 - Basses <-- [draw-enabled] = on

How to:
- Select all 4 Tracks
- Any 1 of these 4 Tracks may be the Active Track
- Draw 1 MIDI note.
- That 1 gesture will draw the exact same MIDI note on all 4 Tracks

Benefit:
- All notes are syncopated (if you want that)
- Move notes up/down on any of the 4 Tracks to harmonize/build chords
- Don't move any of the notes if you want them played in unison.

- Also should work for:
Program Changes, Continuous Controllers, Pitch, etc.
(all MIDI Events)

- Continuous Controllers such as volume, pan & modulation are
popular in today's VSTis. Modwheel is commonly used to cross-fade
blend between dynamic layers in a string section, brass section, etc.
This option glues the song dynamics together very quickly.

Originally Posted by Tod

However, those notes could easily be copied and then pasted in the
corresponding tracks.

It's great we can do this already, but consider the amount of steps
you have to take to copy MIDI Events from one Item to another.

To COPY a MIDI note from one Item to another Item:
1.) Draw a MIDI Note on Item 1
2.) Select that MIDI Note
3.) Copy the MIDI Note to the clipboard/memory
4.) Ensure the Edit Cursor is at the exact start of the MIDI Note's start position.
5.) Switch focus to Item 2
6.) Paste MIDI Note to Item 2

==================================================

However, the next method takes 1 less step than copy/paste.

To DRAW a MIDI Note to 2 Items at the same time:
(Multi-draw Method 1)

Method 1 requires:
- Enabling both Items' [pencil] button
- Selecting both Items in Track List

To do:
1.) Enable the [pencil] button on Item 1
2.) Enable the [pencil] button on Item 2
3.) Select Item 1 in the Track List
4.) Select Item 2 in the Track List
5.) Draw a MIDI Note on either Item
(Step #5 draws the MIDI Note to both Items)

==================================================

This next method takes 3 less steps than copy/paste.

To DRAW a MIDI Note to 2 Items at the same time:
(Multi-draw Method 2)

Method 2 requires:
- Enabling both Items' [pencil] button


To do:
1.) Enable the [pencil] button on Item 1
2.) Enable the [pencil] button on Item 2
3.) Draw a MIDI Note on either Item
(Step #3 draws the MIDI Note to both Items)

Note: Method 2 would need a preference:
"[x] Draw to unselected, edit-enabled Items"
( [x] = enabled)

==================================================

Originally Posted by Tod

I guess I'm not sure either of those scenarios justify adding yet
another box to take up space and/or complicate things more than
they are. Unless of course, we do indeed get the options to select
which elements we want.

I wrote an FR here to control what elements are visible in the Track Filter:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...0&postcount=57
( [x] = enabled)

[] Show Track number
[x] Show [color picker]
[x] Show [eye]
[x] Show [rec-arm]
[x] Show [mute]
[x] Show [solo]
[x] Show [pencil] (not [yet] implemented)
[x] Show [padlock] (not [yet] implemented)

Originally Posted by Tod

It would definitely be nice if the selected CC lanes would be
remembered for each active track.

This would be very useful.