Old 12-18-2012, 07:15 AM   #121
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Well there's a breath of fresh air .. thank God.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:40 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by chriscomfort View Post
I'm with you on just about everything Tod. I like the workflow and the expanding contracting of the tree when switching "modes". And the difference in "modes" is clarified by watching you .gif in your other link. But I do agree with medicine tactic and jnif about editable verses active. And here is a link to the famous Theodor Krueger, who gave us all of those Sonar piano roll videos that everyone references. In this one, he's using Studio One V2, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASnbv...jqq10IDjIdoNSA
Thanks much cris, yes Theo's videos are pretty outrageous and that's the first time I've seen him in anything but Sonar.

So now I understand where you're coming from and the possible advantage of having just one Active item or track at a time. Also there's a lot going on in that video that's hard to catch at Theo's breakneck speed. Obviously he was using mouse modifiers or combination of modifiers to change the mouse cursor and a few other tasks.

Although I saw him select the active track in the Track List a few times (he was using full tracks), there were times I think he may have used a modifier(s) and touched a note to change the active track??

Actually having one active track/item wont make any difference, especially if we can make tracks/items visible but uneditable.

Thanks again cris for the enlightenment.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:42 AM   #123
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Although I saw him select the active track in the Track List a few times (he was using full tracks), there were times I think he may have used a modifier(s) and touched a note to change the active track??
I don't think so. I tried to carefully watch the whole video, and I did not see any moment where he would have changed active track in any other way than by clicking in the track list.
In the video there are 4 editable tracks all the time (the blue pencil icons in the track list). But only one track active at a time (the blue text in the track list). You see him select/modify/delete/copy notes of inactive tracks all the time. And that is normal (and very useful and important) because those inactive tracks are editable (not just visible). But when he draws new notes with the pencil tool the notes are always added only to the active track (which has blue text in the track list).

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Actually having one active track/item wont make any difference, especially if we can make tracks/items visible but uneditable.
I still don't understand what you mean by this.
For example in those Theo's videos he needs to have one track active and multiple tracks editable. It is not enough to have one track active and other tracks visible but uneditable.

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Last edited by jnif; 12-18-2012 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:10 AM   #124
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I don't think so. I tried to carefully watch the whole video, and I did not see any moment where he would have changed active track in any other way than by clicking in the track list.
In the video there are 4 editable tracks all the time (the blue pencil icons in the track list). But only one track active at a time (the blue text in the track list). You see him select/modify/delete/copy notes of inactive tracks all the time. And that is normal (and very useful and important) because those inactive tracks are editable (not just visible). But when he draws new notes with the pencil tool the notes are always added only to the active track (which has blue text in the track list).
Hi jnif, I guess you missed the (??) at the end of that sentence. Actually it wouldn't be a bad idea to use a mouse modifier(s) to click on a visible inactive note to change the active track/item but, let's not complicate things more than they already are.

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I still don't understand what you mean by this.
For example in those Theo's videos he needs to have one track active and multiple tracks editable. It is not enough to have one track active and other tracks visible but uneditable.
Of course, I would of thunk if you took my post as a whole you would have understood that's what I meant. Trust me, I've got the picture.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:12 AM   #125
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You don't write a score on a series of post it notes and then glue them all together on a piece of manuscript paper, so why try and force this methodology into track based MIDI editing?
Heh heh, that's a pretty goo analogy Ivan.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:20 AM   #126
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Actually it wouldn't be a bad idea to use a mouse modifier(s) to click on a visible inactive note to change the active track/item but, let's not complicate things more than they already are.
Yes, I agree. I would like to have an option to change active track/item just by clicking the notes of inactive item. An optional modifier key would be useful also when you like to keep the changing of active track/item more in users control.

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Old 12-18-2012, 10:33 AM   #127
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Just to be completely unambiguous, I mean a track (eg Bass or Piano) is filled with events (MIDI data) contiguously. It is not split up into Items or Containers or anything else.
Think of it as though you were actually writing a piece of music.
You don't write a score on a series of post it notes and then glue them all together on a piece of manuscript paper, so why try and force this methodology into track based MIDI editing?
Nobody is forcing you to work item-by-item in MIDI editor. You can work using a track-based workflow in MIDI editor and you don't have to worry about item edges. And you can still take advantage of items if you like. Best of both worlds. That is how I hope Reaper will work after all these new MIDI features are complete.

See this post for some details about how "Track mode" could work in piano roll view:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=401

When you write a score on paper you can use double barlines, repeat signs, volta brackets, codas, etc. Those define sections of music and non-contiguous sequences of music like repeats and jumps to different section. Those are very useful in written scores and in Reaper you can use MIDI items to do similar things. You loop MIDI items, create pooled copies, mute, rearrange, fade, etc. You can even add non-destructive real-time MIDI FX to individual items on a track. Or you can do some simple things like use different item color on some important section of a track.

MIDI items help you to manage complex MIDI arrangements.

jnif

Last edited by jnif; 12-18-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:34 AM   #128
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1-item-per-track is one of the workflows supposed to be enhanced by the changes, so I think what megalodon mentioned is all about to come, more or less .
Some of the stuff is already working pretty well right now. You can lengthen or move/copy notes and the item will extend to fit the material. You can also already use "Insert note" or copy/paste actions with the edit cursor outside the item boundaries and the item borders obey.
You cannot yet insert a note with the mouse outside the item, though.

Ivansc, I just select all items on a track, double click one to open the piano roll and then can use the marquee or the "Touch selection" mouse modifiers in the piano roll to select notes across all the selected items, active or not. "Select all notes" will select all notes on the track. Click and control click also already work (shift click doesn't). - Well that's all to be taken with a grain of salt, as there are some bugs (naturally).
There is lots of things still missing like the filter, many actions, some mouse modifiers and everything do do with CC lanes. As of now you can only do the most basic mouse editing stuff on notes in inactive (but editable) items, like move/copy/lengthen/velocity.

Let's not forget that the incarnation we have now is more alpha than beta, it's in it's baby shoes (and look, it just smiled at me )
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:45 AM   #129
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Yep - I have been very wary of using this pre because of the precarious nature of all this and of course I am excited to see developments in MIDI editing.

One of the main reasons I am trying to nail down exactly what we are working towards is that I dont want to wake up one morning and find myeslf faced with a MIDI implementation I dislike even more than what we already had! (grin)

And of course this is why I want to be 100% sure we all understand each other.

I am already seeing some crossed wires hee and there.

Going to sort out a portable install of the pres and use a recently acquired lappy to play with it.....
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:54 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Nobody is forcing you to work item-by-item in MIDI editor. You can work using a track-based workflow in MIDI editor and you don't have to worry about item edges. And you can still take advantage of items if you like. Best of both worlds. That is how I hope Reaper will work after all these new MIDI features are complete.

See this post for some details about how "Track mode" could work in piano roll view:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=401

When you write a score on paper you can use double barlines, repeat signs, volta brackets, codas, etc. Those define sections of music and non-contiguous sequences of music like repeats and jumps to different section. Those are very useful in written scores and in Reaper you can use MIDI items to do similar things. You loop MIDI items, create pooled copies, mute, rearrange, fade, etc. You can even add non-destructive real-time MIDI FX to individual items on a track. Or you can do some simple things like use different item color on some important section of a track.

MIDI items help you to manage complex MIDI arrangements.

jnif
This is why I have been asking the devs to look seriously at a proper arrange page. I can treat recorded MIDI exactly the way you are suggesting, including bar lines, repeats, etc, without even touching the actual MIDI editor, it all happens in the arrange page and the editing happens in the editors.
In my case I can ONE click seamlessly between piano roll, event list, normal stave and hybrid stave editors. Or have any or all of them up at the same time.

The arrange page I use depicts the MIDI information s blocks of one bar length.
You can cut paste copy etc to your hearts content without ever using an actual MIDI editor. Can you honestly tell me you would rather try and do it all in the same MIDI editor when the opportunity to treat arranging as a separate stage is available?

I really wish some of you guys could be looking over my shoulder when I am editing in BPP.

Or that I was better at explaining things.... *sigh*
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:59 AM   #131
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Nobody is forcing you to work item-by-item in MIDI editor. You can work using a track-based workflow in MIDI editor and you don't have to worry about item edges. And you can still take advantage of items if you like. Best of both worlds. (snip) That is how I hope Reaper will work after all these new MIDI features are complete.

jnif
So in other words, you are initially saying that I can already work that way ....and then at the end saying that this is only how you HOPE Reaper will work after the new MIDI features are complete?

Confusing.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:13 PM   #132
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So in other words, you are initially saying that I can already work that way ....and then at the end saying that this is only how you HOPE Reaper will work after the new MIDI features are complete?

Confusing.
We have been discussing about proposals all the time. Only occasionally someone referes to existing features when it is relevant. This whole debate in this thread started from Tod's mockup.

In my opinion it is better to discuss what we would like to have. Not about what is possible currently in Reaper. And this is because there are so many missing features and bugs currently. Even the devs have indicated that some things will change.

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Old 12-18-2012, 12:17 PM   #133
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1-item-per-track is one of the workflows supposed to be enhanced by the changes, so I think what megalodon mentioned is all about to come, more or less .
Some of the stuff is already working pretty well right now. You can lengthen or move/copy notes and the item will extend to fit the material. You can also already use "Insert note" or copy/paste actions with the edit cursor outside the item boundaries and the item borders obey.
You cannot yet insert a note with the mouse outside the item, though.

Ivansc, I just select all items on a track, double click one to open the piano roll and then can use the marquee or the "Touch selection" mouse modifiers in the piano roll to select notes across all the selected items, active or not. "Select all notes" will select all notes on the track. Click and control click also already work (shift click doesn't). - Well that's all to be taken with a grain of salt, as there are some bugs (naturally).
There is lots of things still missing like the filter, many actions, some mouse modifiers and everything do do with CC lanes. As of now you can only do the most basic mouse editing stuff on notes in inactive (but editable) items, like move/copy/lengthen/velocity.

Let's not forget that the incarnation we have now is more alpha than beta, it's in it's baby shoes (and look, it just smiled at me )
Currently, I'm not able to edit velocity on inactive items. Even with the notes selected, I can't use my custom mouse wheel velocity tool or call up note properties or use the mouse pointer in the velocity controller lane. Velocity based actions don't even work. Is it possible I've forgotten to activate something?
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:27 PM   #134
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You can use the mouse modifier "Edit note velocity".

Last edited by gofer; 12-18-2012 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:30 PM   #135
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You can use the mouse modifier "Edit note velocity". Everything you mention is action based and many actions don't work.
Gotcha. Thank you.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:31 PM   #136
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This is why I have been asking the devs to look seriously at a proper arrange page. I can treat recorded MIDI exactly the way you are suggesting, including bar lines, repeats, etc, without even touching the actual MIDI editor, it all happens in the arrange page and the editing happens in the editors.
In my case I can ONE click seamlessly between piano roll, event list, normal stave and hybrid stave editors. Or have any or all of them up at the same time.

The arrange page I use depicts the MIDI information s blocks of one bar length.
You can cut paste copy etc to your hearts content without ever using an actual MIDI editor. Can you honestly tell me you would rather try and do it all in the same MIDI editor when the opportunity to treat arranging as a separate stage is available?
No, I don't want any advanced item-level management in MIDI editor. Reaper's arrange view is much better place for item-level management. Like split items, glue items, loop items, create pooled item copies, move items to another location or to another track, add item FX, add fades etc.
Those tasks are better done in arrange view.

But I want to have optional item-level visibility/editability/activity control in MIDI editor. There are multiple different use cases that require this. So, I think it should not be prohibited. Many user may not need it. But that should not be a big problem because it is optional. It will add some complexity but with clever design it will be almost invisble to those who only use "track-based MIDI" workflow.

And I agree, there could be even better arrangement features in Reaper's arrange view. But in my opinion that is a bit different topic.

jnif

Last edited by jnif; 12-18-2012 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:02 PM   #137
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No, I don't want any advanced item-level management in MIDI editor. Reaper's arrange view is much better place for item-level management. Like split items, glue items, loop items, create pooled item copies, move items to another location or to another track, add item FX, add fades etc. Those tasks are better done in arrange view.
Heh, I absolutely *love* the idea of having arrangement facilities available in the ME. I think it encourages a flow state. Many arrangement operations are best performed in the context of composing the MIDI, so having that functionality right there at your fingertips, without having to change context and zoom level and possibly lose your train of thought, is huge. I especially like that the horizontal zoom of the selector lane and the piano roll is locked (which may be optional later), emphasizing the link between piano roll and arrangement that much more. The selector lane is like visibility/editability selection plus arrange view plus tabbed browsing rolled into one. Coupled with the vertical tracklist I think we're in for a deeply awesome editing experience.

Having arrangement facilities available in two places may seem inelegant at first glance, but I think it's *totally* worth it.

Of course, you can ignore that stuff if don't like it. But I bet it'll grow on you
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:15 PM   #138
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Heh, I absolutely *love* the idea of having arrangement facilities available in the ME. I think it encourages a flow state. Many arrangement operations are best performed in the context of composing the MIDI, so having that functionality right there at your fingertips, without having to change context and zoom level and possibly lose your train of thought, is huge. I especially like that the horizontal zoom of the selector lane and the piano roll is locked (which may be optional later), emphasizing the link between piano roll and arrangement that much more. The selector lane is like visibility/editability selection plus arrange view plus tabbed browsing rolled into one. Coupled with the vertical tracklist I think we're in for a deeply awesome editing experience.

Having arrangement facilities available in two places may seem inelegant at first glance, but I think it's *totally* worth it.

Of course, you can ignore that stuff if don't like it. But I bet it'll grow on you
Well, it looks like I was not clear enough.
What I tried to say is this:

No, I don't want any advanced item-level management in MIDI editor's piano roll view or event list view.

Having a separate arrange view lane, or selector lane, or navigator, or whatever, that behaves like arrange view inside MIDI editor is OK. And actually I like it also. I just don't see it as a different "thing". It is also one type of arrange view (or a mini/limited version of that) integrated inside MIDI editor. There might be some special MIDI editor related features like in the current navigator/selector lane. That is all OK. And displaying that arrange view inside MIDI editor is optional.

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Old 12-18-2012, 01:22 PM   #139
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oic, gotcha. Sneaky little wordses -- wicked, tricksy, false!
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:41 PM   #140
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Heh, I absolutely *love* the idea of having arrangement facilities available in the ME. I think it encourages a flow state. Many arrangement operations are best performed in the context of composing the MIDI, so having that functionality right there at your fingertips, without having to change context and zoom level and possibly lose your train of thought, is huge. I especially like that the horizontal zoom of the selector lane and the piano roll is locked (which may be optional later), emphasizing the link between piano roll and arrangement that much more. The selector lane is like visibility/editability selection plus arrange view plus tabbed browsing rolled into one. Coupled with the vertical tracklist I think we're in for a deeply awesome editing experience.

Having arrangement facilities available in two places may seem inelegant at first glance, but I think it's *totally* worth it.

Of course, you can ignore that stuff if don't like it. But I bet it'll grow on you
Heh, I agree with everything you said there medicine tactic! Yes, it keeps the flow, and everything closely at hand there if and when needed. Had the screen layouts worked better with MIDI editor, I would've probably not felt too bad switching constantly between arrange and ME in the past or losing screen estate just to keep some edit actions working...but the first time I selected and moved an item in MIDI Navigator (selector) and pondered for a second the possibilities, I just felt a jolt of joy.

Hardly an improving reply but just had to say it here, thanks!
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:43 PM   #141
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We have been discussing about proposals all the time. Only occasionally someone referes to existing features when it is relevant. This whole debate in this thread started from Tod's mockup.

In my opinion it is better to discuss what we would like to have. Not about what is possible currently in Reaper. And this is because there are so many missing features and bugs currently. Even the devs have indicated that some things will change.

jnif
Cool - I am no longer confused, so thanks for the clarification!

Having just read the other new posts, it really does seem like we are struggling to find a common way of expressing what we would like to happen in a way that everyone understands.

The way of the world really, isn't it? Damn it is nearly 3am and I am knackered.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:43 PM   #142
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That's what I'm getting. With both unchecked, the video screen is blank. Audio from the video still comes through. And for me everything does work in VLC (32-bit this time).
I commited some fixes for this in the next pre, please try again with the YV12 preference switch on in the next pre release when it is available.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:45 PM   #143
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I commited some fixes for this in the next pre, please try again with the YV12 preference switch on in the next pre release when it is available.
With pre7??

Merci pour tout le boulot!
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:00 PM   #144
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With pre7??

Merci pour tout le boulot!
Oops, I meant pre8
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