v4.32pre5 - December 5 2012

[semiquaver]

I would just like to plead for consistent actions across contexts!

there is an action "select only track containing selected item" and select all items on track" "hide track" etc etc in the TCP

It would be awesome if *as far as possible* the actions could work analogously in the midi editor.

I don't wan't to have to interact endlessly with ui elements to edit effectively if I already have a fast keyboard based workflow in the TCP !

Careful design of the actions is at least as important as fiddling with the UI at this point!

[jnif]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

How that all works along with the "Link Track Selection" option and the menu list in the key editor is also something to look at, the behaviors of all that. That option being on or off changes the relative selection behavior of the menu list.

If it's off, menu selection brings forward a track for drawing and leaves the rest alone. If it's on, it makes the track selection singular, hides other tracks. If it's off and you select a track from outside the current visible group, it does the same, isolates the track.

So in that regard, you can close the track list and get a little more edit space and still be able to easily bring any of the visible tracks forward with the menu list, while still having the note inspector visible.



So below, the tracklist is closed and I'm viewing data from the first 5 tracks. I can bring forward any of those 5 to edit while keeping the other 4 visible, because the option is turned off. When I select a track outside of that currently visible group it makes it a single track view, isolates that one track in the editor.

Another thing you see it doing is trying to logically bring the active data into view, by vertically scrolling when the menu selection changes. If you select all data in arrange to edit, you don't really need the track list at all, you can turn off that option and make all the "drawing" or recording focus changes from the menu list.

But each selection change remembers it's vertical zoom, if you made the notes taller or shorter to fit, it remembers that as you switch through tracks to edit.

I agree there are some useful feaures but I don't quite like how those all work in StudioOne.
Please correct me if there is a better way to do these things in StudioOne. It's possible that I have not fully understood the way these features should work.

1. The "menu list" is slow and awkward to use. The tracklist is much faster. The usability of "menu list" is very bad if you have MIDI tracks inside folders.

2. Your suggestion to close the tracklist to get more edit space does not work properly when editing multiple tracks. The problem is that you can't control editability (pencil icon in tracklist) of tracks without the tracklist. If you keep tracklist closed you will quickly end up with all visible tracks being editable and you can't disable editability without opening the tracklist. Another problem is that you would not be able to change active track (blue text in track list). You can do it only in tracklist or by selecting items in arrange view. Thus, you would need to have arrange view visible, which also wastes editing space, and still you would not be able to disable editability of tracks.

3. It is very useful to have the optional feature which isolates the selected track in MIDI editor when user switches tracks. But it feels quite weird that this useful feature cannot be accessed using the tracklist. It works only with menu list or with arrange view.

4. It is quite difficult to understand the behaviour of the "Link track selection" option. I would expect it to be an option of the tracklist, but it seems to be an option of the MIDI Inspector.

5. I would like to have an option to link arrange view's track/item selection to MIDI editor's visibility controls only. In StudioOne it is always linked to both visibility and editability.

6. It should be possible to close the MIDI inspector panel. It wastes lots of screen real estate.

7. The useful automatic vertical scrolling feature should work also when activating tracks in tracklist. It looks like it works only when selecting track in the awkward "menu list".

This problem list is pretty much off-topic because it's mostly about StudioOne. But it shows how difficult it is to design a really easy-to-use, fast and full-featured MIDI editor. Reaper devs should not just blindly copy MIDI editor designs from other DAWs (and I know Lawrence was not suggesting that). It requires lot of thinking and planning to get everything working as a cohesive whole.

jnif

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by jnif

But it shows how difficult it is to design a really easy-to-use, fast and full-featured MIDI editor. Reaper devs should not just blindly copy MIDI editor designs from other DAWs (and I know Lawrence was not suggesting that). It requires lot of thinking and planning to get everything working as a cohesive whole.

Amen to that. "Cohesive whole" is what it's all about. Reaper still doesn't feel like one, though.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

I would just like to plead for consistent actions across contexts!

there is an action "select only track containing selected item" and select all items on track" "hide track" etc etc in the TCP

It would be awesome if *as far as possible* the actions could work analogously in the midi editor.

I don't wan't to have to interact endlessly with ui elements to edit effectively if I already have a fast keyboard based workflow in the TCP !

Careful design of the actions is at least as important as fiddling with the UI at this point!

+1! Another perhaps silly but imho quite annoying example: why doesn't "W" rewind in the ME when it is in Event List view mode?

[nicholas]

Originally Posted by Banned

+1! Another perhaps silly but imho quite annoying example: why doesn't "W" rewind in the ME when it is in Event List view mode?

Oops sorry I misunderstood the question I think!

[Evan]

Originally Posted by jnif

But it shows how difficult it is to design a really easy-to-use, fast and full-featured MIDI editor.

I don't think it is too difficult. I've used more than satisfactory MIDI editors in other DAWs over the years. It just hasn't received the proper attention in this one. Full-featured traditional MIDI editing has been around for decades (if you exclude the more recent features like support for key-switching etc).

Another factor with Reaper's implementation is the limited use of modern UI widgets. Reaper relies on a small set of standard controls like lots of text labels, check-boxes, drop-down boxes etc... to do its stuff. This takes a toll on functionality, space, and appearance.

Cubase, for example, neatly packs more editing power in collapsible panels (inspector) and toolbars and infobars in the MIDI editor.
Check out the different types of custom UI controls in the toolbars:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...idi-editor.jpg
and this one...
http://magazine.dv247.com/wp-content...ssEditMidi.jpg

That's some real editing power in a small space. Reaper cannot match that with stock UI controls and bitmap buttons.

[jnif]

Originally Posted by Evan

I don't think it is too difficult. I've used more than satisfactory MIDI editors in other DAWs over the years. It just hasn't received the proper attention in this one. Full-featured traditional MIDI editing has been around for decades (if you exclude the more recent features like support for key-switching etc).

Another factor with Reaper's implementation is the limited use of modern UI widgets. Reaper relies on a small set of standard controls like lots of text labels, check-boxes, drop-down boxes etc... to do its stuff. This takes a toll on functionality, space, and appearance.

Cubase, for example, neatly packs more editing power in collapsible panels (inspector) and toolbars and infobars in the MIDI editor.
Check out the different types of custom UI controls in the toolbars:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...idi-editor.jpg
and this one...
http://magazine.dv247.com/wp-content...ssEditMidi.jpg

That's some real editing power in a small space. Reaper cannot match that with stock UI controls and bitmap buttons.

Well, it's interesting that you take Cubase's MIDI editing as an example.
Those screenshots don't show any kind of easy and full-featured way to manage multi-track/item MIDI editing.
The main topic of this thread has been multi-track/item MIDI editing. And the bar has been set pretty high regarding that feature.
Could you explain how it works in Cubase?
Do you think it is better than in other DAWs?
I have not used the latest Cubase versions, but it looks like there are serious limitations in Cubase.
For example, as far as I understand, you can't easily control editability/visibility of tracks inside MIDI editor. You might be able to do it from arrange view, but it is not very intuitive.
It looks like there is no "Track list" or equivalent in Cubase's MIDI editor. How do you switch from one track to another inside MIDI editor? If it is only through a menu, then I think it is too slow.
Can you clearly see tracks color all the time while editing in full-screen midi editor, so you know which track each differently colored note belong to?
Can you access all MIDI tracks and all items on those track directly inside MIDI editor without first selecting the items to be "opened" to the MIDI editor in arrange view?
Can you change to an empty track (without using arrange view) and start adding new items and notes to that track?
Can you easily mute/unmute tracks inside MIDI Editor?
Can you easily access virtual instruments (FX chains) and/or change MIDI Program/Bank within MIDI editor?

jnif

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

I would just like to plead for consistent actions across contexts!

there is an action "select only track containing selected item" and select all items on track" "hide track" etc etc in the TCP

It would be awesome if *as far as possible* the actions could work analogously in the midi editor.

I don't wan't to have to interact endlessly with ui elements to edit effectively if I already have a fast keyboard based workflow in the TCP !

Careful design of the actions is at least as important as fiddling with the UI at this point!

+1 on all the above.

[daxliniere]

Originally Posted by Banned

+1! Another perhaps silly but imho quite annoying example: why doesn't "W" rewind in the ME when it is in Event List view mode?

You also can't locate to markers from the MIDI Editor.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

I would just like to plead for consistent actions across contexts!

there is an action "select only track containing selected item" and select all items on track" "hide track" etc etc in the TCP

It would be awesome if *as far as possible* the actions could work analogously in the midi editor.

I don't wan't to have to interact endlessly with ui elements to edit effectively if I already have a fast keyboard based workflow in the TCP !

Yes.
When setting custom short-cuts in main, could there be a thick-box for apply to ME as well?
And most of navigation should have those ticked by default.

[EvilDragon]

BUG: Reaper doesn't seem to show underlines for alt-walks anymore.

[Evan]

Originally Posted by jnif

Well, it's interesting that you take Cubase's MIDI editing as an example...

I have used Cubase and Cakewalk many aeons ago. I cannot answer your specific questions but I believe the Cubase manual is offered as a free download...

found it here: ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Cubase_6/

I would be surprised if Cubase did not handle most of what you mentioned, at least exceptionally well.

[jnif]

Originally Posted by Evan

I have used Cubase and Cakewalk many aeons ago. I cannot answer your specific questions but I believe the Cubase manual is offered as a free download...

found it here: ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Cubase_6/

I would be surprised if Cubase did not handle most of what you mentioned, at least exceptionally well.

I did read quickly through the MIDI editor chapter in that user manual before I posted those questions. It looks like many useful multi-track MIDI features are missing.

You can't just assume that those things work exceptionally well in Cubase or in any other DAW. Maybe Lawrence or some other Cubase user can answer to those questions.

jnif

[Evan]

Originally Posted by jnif

You can't just assume that those thing work exceptionally in Cubase or in any other DAW. Maybe Lawrence or some other Cubase users can answer to those questions.

jnif

You're right I shouldn't assume too much. My point of focus in the Cubase key editor was the layout of the UI. More specifically: the custom UI controls for working with MIDI data (like the horizontal info-line with the parameters for selected data, or the collapsible panels on the left side).

[Lawrence]

Cubase (5 at least) doesn't have a track list for visibility, but editing across multiple parts in the key editor works better than most.

Their ... method? ... assumes you select what you want to edit from arrange. Once you're in the editor, the edit filters are pretty darned good. Cubase is (at least so far imo) best used with two monitors. It uses arrange for the visibility filters since the editors follow selection by default.

You'd think Cockos would own a copy of Cubase, Logic, DP... arguable the 3 best midi sequencers on the planet.

[Guido]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

...
You'd think Cockos would own a copy of Cubase, Logic, DP... arguable the 3 best midi sequencers on the planet.

Hi,

I dont know how many thousands of times i have thought that!

Guido

[Kontrast]

It's been so quiet... tidal flood of a pre coming?

I'm still waiting to see a two week wait and then...
About: Fixed typo.

... or something similar.

[jnif]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Cubase (5 at least) doesn't have a track list for visibility, but editing across multiple parts in the key editor works better than most.

Their ... method? ... assumes you select what you want to edit from arrange. Once you're in the editor, the edit filters are pretty darned good. Cubase is (at least so far imo) best used with two monitors. It uses arrange for the visibility filters since the editors follow selection by default.

Based on Cubase documentation it is not clear how you control editability of items ("parts" in Cubase) and tracks.

How do you edit multiple or all items on same track at the same time and keep other tracks' items visible and uneditable at the same time?

How do you edit items on tracks A and B at the same time while tracks C and D are visible but uneditable?

jnif

[ivansc]

BPP if you tell it to show all tracks in track edit window, the non-active tracks are visible but slightly dimmed. Means you can easily see to (say) line up out-of-synch items in the track you are editing.
If only....

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

BUG: Reaper doesn't seem to show underlines for alt-walks anymore.

Can anyone confirm?

[IXix]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Can anyone confirm?

I've not heard the term 'alt-walk' before. You mean the underlines for keyboard access to menu items? If so, those appear to be fine here on Win7.

[krahosk]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

v4.32pre5 - December 5 2012

# MIDI editor: mini-TCP view in navigator lane is preliminary (no functionality exists yet)

I love the Navigator and am eagerly waiting for the functionality in the next release.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by krahosk

I love the Navigator and am eagerly waiting for the functionality in the next release.

I've found it handy too for visual confirmation alongside the list. Can't wait for next pre, haven't had landoleet refresh syndrome for a while now and feels weird having that desperate wish for the next pre haunting me again!

[Evan]

BUG with USB MIDI devices: Reaper does not recognize USB MIDI devices that I connect while Reaper is active. I have to terminate and re-open Reaper.

Not sure if this is related to the pre, but since the pre is what I use, I am reporting here. Waiting for confirmations, thanks.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Evan

BUG with USB MIDI devices: Reaper does not recognize USB MIDI devices that I connect while Reaper is active. I have to terminate and re-open Reaper.

Not sure if this is related to the pre, but since the pre is what I use, I am reporting here. Waiting for confirmations, thanks.

Are you sure? That is working as expected here, i.e. you do not need to terminate, but you do need to rescan. This could definitely work much better, see this bug report.

[Evan]

further info: when I remove a USB MIDI device, it's still listed in the devices in the settings. Even after hitting 'reset all devices'. I get the message it cannot be opened, but it's still being listed.

Seems like the MIDI device list doesn't get refreshed unless Reaper is restarted?

Ok, the problem is with the MIDI devices list in the settings. It doesn't get updated even if I reset devices, close and reopen the panel. I have to restart Reaper.

But the MIDI devices get updated fine in the TCP (after the rescan).

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by IXix

I've not heard the term 'alt-walk' before. You mean the underlines for keyboard access to menu items? If so, those appear to be fine here on Win7.

Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to.


They don't show up here, in ANY menu, W7 x64, Reaper x64.

[IXix]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

They don't show up here, in ANY menu, W7 x64, Reaper x64.

I think I've seen a Windows UI setting for showing/hiding those somewhere. Maybe you toggled it by accident?

[musicbynumbers]

I think there's a menu option for this in prefs under Keyboard/Multi-touch called "prevent ALT key from focusing main menu

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to.


They don't show up here, in ANY menu, W7 x64, Reaper x64.

[EvilDragon]

I tried that option, no change. And previously the underlines were showing no matter what this option was set to. This only prevents FOCUSING the main menu, but it does NOT disable alt-walks.

[MichaJo]

Originally Posted by IXix

I think I've seen a Windows UI setting for showing/hiding those somewhere. Maybe you toggled it by accident?

Yes, in Control Center -> Ease of Access Center -> Make the keyboard easier to use -> Underline keyboard shortcuts and access keys

[IXix]

Originally Posted by IXix

I think I've seen a Windows UI setting for showing/hiding those somewhere. Maybe you toggled it by accident?

Found it. It's "Underline keyboard shortcuts and access keys" in
Control Panel\Ease of Access\Ease of Access Center\Make the keyboard easier to use

[EvilDragon]

Well that was retarded. I never changed that option in Control Panel! I swear!

Thanks IX^2

[groovemaster]

Version 4.31
When I forgot to switch on my controller-keyboard befor I start Reaper, I have to shut off Reaper, switch the keyboard on and then start Reaper again.
Same thing, when I forgot to USB connect.
Where is this "control panel"??
...didn't found it in the manual!

[EvilDragon]

We were mentioning Windows Control Panel. Reaper has Preferences.

[Evan]

Originally Posted by groovemaster

Version 4.31
When I forgot to switch on my controller-keyboard befor I start Reaper, I have to shut off Reaper, switch the keyboard on and then start Reaper again.
Same thing, when I forgot to USB connect.

I have this too... in pre6 also.

[medicine tactic]

Originally Posted by schwa

Other users will have media items at different places on the timeline, on many tracks. They will also need a narrow, vertical list of tracks, which can be used to choose what is displayed in the editor. The selector lane would then show only those tracks, and can then be used to choose which media items to work with.

It'd probably be better to bring this up during later refinement. But I can imagine wanting to view enough tracks in the piano roll that the selector lane would take up too much space. It'd be nice to be able to select a subset of the visible tracks to list in the selector lane.

Maybe better left for later, but there it is.

Edit: I can also see leaving this out for simplicity's sake. Like, if there are too many tracks listed in the selector lane, just view fewer tracks! So my real preference is that it should only be done if it can be done intuitively and unobtrusively.