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Old 10-20-2011, 05:37 PM   #81
Paul Slocum
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I came to the forums thinking the same thing -- that MIDI timing was jittery in Reaper. I am using a MacBook Air and a MIDIMan 2x2. I ran a MIDI output from my MIDIMan into my Roland R-5 drum machine and tried sending quantized uniform 16th notes from Reaper and from another sequencer (Intuem).

http://www.qotile.net/temp/reaperMIDI/

The 16th notes in Reaper sure sound a bit jumpy to me compared to Intuem. I upgraded to Reaper 4.1 and it may have helped a bit -- I recorded samples using both Reaper 3.76 and Reaper 4.1.
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Old 10-22-2011, 08:38 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
SO this is not just a reaper problem apparently,(if you actually discover that it IS a problem - my mileage varies as previously stated) but I do still wonder if maybe we aren't expecting the software to do ALL the work, including creating the feel?

When I first started sequencing MIDI, things were a great deal more unsophisticated. Cubase was still Atari-bound and Po Tools was a gleam in someone's eye, yet we still managed to get good midi drum parts.

My first album with midi stuff in it had drums that were played into an alesis by a proper drummer and then played back from that god-awful alesis data storer live at gigs.
would not want to go back to that.

One more question: when you (various posters here) say the midi playback is not the same as was recorded, are we talking timing, hit strength or what here?
It seems that the problem lies in that some newer sequencers need to slave midi to the audio buffers in order to have everything lined up, so it actually destroys that feel. Or something like that. That´s why changing the PDC settings may help. It looks like some older sequencers that started as midi only apps got that better sorted out than apps that started out as audio only and grafted midi functionality afterwards. Of course, there are more issues making things even worse, like the midi interfaces themselves, and the fact that USB is not too midi friendly.
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:08 PM   #83
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It seems that the problem lies in that some newer sequencers need to slave midi to the audio buffers in order to have everything lined up
Now that makes all kinds of sense and maybe explains why I have yet to experience any problems with erratic performance in MIDI.

Most of my stuff is MIDI with only guitar bass and vox directly to audio.
I also route any external MIDI through a smart MIDI patchbay which is very good at maintaining the integrity of the MIDI streams in and out of it.

And since all the external MIDI is controlling ITB stuff, this places very little pressure on the MID stream in the first place.

Suppose when I get up to ten vocal tracks and five guitars, it might start to show, but in the meantime my E-kit still sounds the same recorded as it did in the room when I played it.

So now I guess we need a workaround for the silliness with the audio buffer controlling MIDI timing.

Beginning to wish I was OTB again....
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Old 10-28-2011, 03:06 AM   #84
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I definitely do have annoying jitter with purely internal MIDI, an sfz VST plugin. BPM is 100, note length is 1/16. Very audible inaccuracies, especially annoying with a constant 1/16 drum or instrument hammering. bpq is default 960 and project time settings is beat, position, rate.

Also the jitter isn't always the same (which would be understandable), but randomly occurs or doesn't for each playback at varying positions, and is also randomly present on export render.

Now I do of course not know if this is the fault of sfz or Reaper, but it is indeed annoying. It seems worrying to me that either sfz or Reaper don't manage to agree on the same timing on a second run (even if wrong) but jitter around randomly, since this is a purely virtual thing where sample accuracy shouldn't be an issue - in theory.

Reaper version used for observing this was v4.10 rev 8072e4.

EDIT: It was the fault of sfz in VST bridging mode.

Last edited by MrJones; 01-25-2013 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:38 AM   #85
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do you have another, similar plug to compare with sfz?
I am assuming this is some kind of a soundfont player, which of course could well be the source of your jitter if its internal timing routines are fighting Reapers attempts to trigger the samples on time....
And of course this would also explain the random nature of the jitter, since there would be cylic overlaps at different times if the two apps were competing for control AND out of synch as a result.

Reading that back, it is not very well written but cant think of a better way to put it.
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Old 10-28-2011, 10:14 AM   #86
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As I understand it, Reaper simply requests a buffer with a certain amount of audio samples from the VST and passes the midi events to it (which hopefully have a fixed time based on the position in the song, not a spontaneously grabbed timestamp based on current system time when they should be triggered). The VST then computes the buffer and returns it.

If there is a "fight over resources" or another problem, the VST will simply not return the buffer in time -> stuttering. If it returns in time (which for me it does, I don't have general playback issues), there should be absolutely no reason why a VST cannot manage to trigger samples sample exact, given Reaper's midi events are accurate (and not jittering around due to inaccurate midi event timestamps e.g. when they're based on system time at that point and the trigger fires too early or too late) and given the VST is good enough to be able to work sample exact.

Sadly there IS jittering for me, which means either sfz cannot work sample exact (which I'd actually assume it can, but one never knows), or Reaper is simply unable to pass midi events accurately at the right point with the right event time due to whatever technical reason.

EDIT: Old post update: sfz and REAPER VST bridging activated was indeed the combination that caused the timing trouble.

Last edited by MrJones; 01-25-2013 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 10-29-2011, 01:32 PM   #87
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MrJones, which versions are you using: x86 or x64?
Are you using a bridge (Options->Preferences->Plug-Ins->Compatibility->VST bridging/firewalling)?

Can you test with ReaSamplomatic5000?
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:35 PM   #88
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I also have issues with timing, drums seem to be off quite often. They don't hit exactly right. When I record midi into reaper it never seems to sound the exact same as when I played it.

I have also noticed on recording that when I play back my midi synthesizer and record it in through a seperate track that the audio waveform is drawn a few milliseconds before the actual midi note in the timeline in reaper.

I uploaded an image as an example. Not sure how visible that is. Am I missing a setting somewhere? I have no plugin delay compensation set up on my midi synthesizer in the properties.
Attached Images
File Type: png example.png (25.0 KB, 230 views)
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Old 12-04-2011, 02:39 PM   #89
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Stuck notes with Sonar 8.5.3 x64 and Kontakt (latest update installed)
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:15 AM   #90
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Greatings, i managed to fix the sync problems

it was the driver...

i was using Asio, and for some reason wich i really cant tell, it was giving me instability with reaper only

so i changed the driver to...WDM kernel streaming

4x512 samples at 44100 hz

imediatly reaper becomed more responsive and solid with the midi clock...
not only doesnt came out of sync as its also have a faster response

so far i have been trying things that usualy gave me problems, like making kicks loop, basslines sync and stuff like that, used to be a nightmare...

so far solid as rock with this setup, and i hope my report help anyone

im going back to work, because now finaly i can role with this baby!!

(after more than year having the license without using ^^ its seems that my space ship is ready... YAHHH BABBBY!!!!)
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:30 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amrodan View Post
When I record midi into reaper it never seems to sound the exact same as when I played it.
I have got the same feeling - like I was much more lousy player than I am
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:25 AM   #92
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Bear in mind that the beer goggles effect DOES come into play somewhat here.

I tend to believe my playing really IS that flaky and just tidy everything up, so long as the feel I had is still there.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:26 PM   #93
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If you search the forum hard enough you will find the comparison i did of reaper to every other host i could install, reaper came last even behind extremely old and out of date apps some of which had reputations for flakey timing.

Cockos are and always have been incapable of creating a usable midi implementation in more ways than one
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:53 PM   #94
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g_punk, i do hope your provocations do more good than not
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:13 AM   #95
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I have no idea what you are talking about
I post facts plain and simple
If you search for the post you would find that all the files and tests are reproducable 100%
So no not provoking, pointing out a fact that most users have known for many years, Cockos have been useless at MIDI support, not only in the editor but also in use
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:37 AM   #96
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"I once posted it, so its a fact" is not a fact - it's a claim. Plain and simple.

If you search "hard enough" you find "proof" for anything and its opposite on the interwebz.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:54 AM   #97
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Where is this comparison? And how was the test performed?
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:07 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Slocum View Post
I came to the forums thinking the same thing -- that MIDI timing was jittery in Reaper. I am using a MacBook Air and a MIDIMan 2x2. I ran a MIDI output from my MIDIMan into my Roland R-5 drum machine and tried sending quantized uniform 16th notes from Reaper and from another sequencer (Intuem).

http://www.qotile.net/temp/reaperMIDI/

The 16th notes in Reaper sure sound a bit jumpy to me compared to Intuem. I upgraded to Reaper 4.1 and it may have helped a bit -- I recorded samples using both Reaper 3.76 and Reaper 4.1.
If you record the r5 back into reaper the 16th's i.e. midi and audio should line up. Have you tried doing this?
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:15 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
"I once posted it, so its a fact" is not a fact - it's a claim. Plain and simple.

If you search "hard enough" you find "proof" for anything and its opposite on the interwebz.
Actually it was tested by various people, not just me, but maybe we where all wrong and Reaper is perfect, i will stay out of this thread now, be happy with your terrible MIDI support
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:41 AM   #100
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My, what a delicate flower you can be.

I was mocking your "facts plain and simple" remark in conjunction with "if you search hard enough". I did not say your test was wrong or not reproduced by others. I couldn't, because I couldn't find the test.
You can rest assured that I did search pretty hard but still came up empty. Do I hear you saying "Then you didn't search hard enough"? Well, that was my point.

That's all there is to it.
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Old 11-07-2012, 02:13 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazed View Post
If you record the r5 back into reaper the 16th's i.e. midi and audio should line up. Have you tried doing this?
He might have tried that in the year that passed after he posted that in a thread that was marked as [Solved] back then and that was resurrected now by someone who solved his problem as well.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:17 AM   #102
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Well, for my own sanity I performed little test yesterday evening:

1. Recorded VST hihat rhythm as MIDI item and audio (microphone + speaker) simultaneously
2. "Applied FX" to MIDI item
3. Aligned first hit of audio track with MIDI first hit according to latency
4. Check for problems...

... and I didn't find any (surprise! Really!). Maybe I will repeat it with better conditions (metronome and hitting keys made a lot of additional noise). But for now I have to admit that Reaper records what I hear and places MIDI notes right. When I will have more time maybe I will do some more tests
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:25 PM   #103
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OK, I am one of those who feel Reaper MIDI timing sometimes is wrong. "Stumbling" is the term which best describes what happens. Again: sometimes.

I think that this is true:

When setting my RME Hammerfall 9636 to 44.1KHz, Reaper MIDI notes stumble every now and then (about once or twice per playback, never at the same point of the song). When running at 48 or 96 KHz, this stumbing never happens.
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Old 11-24-2012, 03:15 PM   #104
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Default I think it has someting to do with this

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=112846
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:33 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabrizio benedetti View Post
OK, I am one of those who feel Reaper MIDI timing sometimes is wrong. "Stumbling" is the term which best describes what happens. Again: sometimes.

I think that this is true:

When setting my RME Hammerfall 9636 to 44.1KHz, Reaper MIDI notes stumble every now and then (about once or twice per playback, never at the same point of the song). When running at 48 or 96 KHz, this stumbing never happens.
I run exactly the same setup as you on an MD 6 core with 8gb of ram and never have any problems with the MIDI stream.

***EDIT Sorry I have the 9652 HDSP. If you are actually running a non-HDSP crd this could be where your problems stem from. There are problems with this series running in anything after XP if I recall. Might be worth checking the RME forums.***

You might want to wade through the earlier red herring threads that have been solved by other means than changing Reapers MIDI.
That is the worst part of latency and timing errors - there are so many possible causes.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:40 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
There are problems with this series running in anything after XP if I recall. Might be worth checking the RME forums.
As I understand, the problem for non-HDSP cards is the lack of 64bits drivers; I'm using W7 32 bits, and it looks like there is no problem, saved for the occasional MIDI timing.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:25 PM   #107
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Yeah - What I posted was just stuff I recalled from way back on the rme forums, so you are prolly right about it being a driver thing.

But there again I do a LOT of e-drumming in reaper with a very similar setup to you and never ever get any timing issues I didnt create myself.

Have you managed to quantify what is going on yet?
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