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Old 12-29-2017, 05:04 PM   #1
msandhu
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Default Why does Reaper not time stretch loops as good as Acid Pro 6 (Examples provided)

I have a drum loop at 75bpm that I've changed to 120bpm. When I compare the output I find that Acid Pro time stretches the loop so much better than Reaper - the kick and snare is just as powerful as it was when it was at its original tempo. Reaper seems to lose a lot of punch when changing the tempo.

The time stretch mode used in the example is Elastqiue 2.28 pro, however, i have tried all of the others and nothing sounds close to Acid Pro.

I have provided some examples below so you can hear for yourself what I'm experiencing. They are soundcloud links - one for the Acid time stretch, and the other is Reaper's time stretch.

Acid Pro time stretch:

https://soundcloud.com/user-23795762-756688482/acid

Reaper time stretch:

https://soundcloud.com/user-23795762-756688482/reaper

Is there a way to treat loops in Reaper so they time stretch the same way as Acid Pro? Reaper seems like such an advanced piece of software compared to Acid Pro - I'm struggling to understand how an ancient product like Acid Pro could be providing better results?!
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Old 12-29-2017, 05:23 PM   #2
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Acid Pro uses Elastique Pro as it's stretching algorithm I'm pretty sure (at least version 7 does) , but not sure what version of Elastique. Check the various Elastique pro algorithms (the 2.* versions and the 3.* versions, and especially their various sub types - check the item properties box) . No one algorithm is good for all types of material, some are better for retaining transients in drums, some are better for keeping artifacts out of melodic stuff etc.
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Old 12-29-2017, 05:31 PM   #3
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Quote:
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Acid Pro uses Elastique Pro as it's stretching algorithm I'm pretty sure , but not sure what version. Check the various Elastique pro algorithms (the 2.* versions and the 3.* versions, and especially their various sub types - check the item properties box) . No one algorithm is good for all types of material, some are better for retaining transients in drums, some are better for keeping artifacts out of melodic stuff etc.
I’ve tried all of the various time stretching modes in Reaper but nothing sounds as good as Acid

Does Acid time stretch loops in a different way? I mainly notice the difference with Acidized loops
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Old 12-29-2017, 06:27 PM   #4
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interesting
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:23 PM   #5
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Interesting find. I'm effectively bumping, but I did notice the volume difference for starters.

Otherwise, seems the snare (clap) is most affected [edit: kick too]; the tail seems to get chopped off a bit in Reaperland. IIRC, the "acidiced" loops may have pre-configured points to map the stretches to, particularly for percussive material, which Acid may be 'moving' instead of 'stretching.' Just a theory.

Edit: Are you also matching 100% any signal processing and levels?
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:35 PM   #6
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It must be the acid loops, because the time stretching algorithm is Elastique in both cases (I believe version 2 for Acid Pro, and the choice of 2 or 3 for REAPER).

Acid loops are pre-sliced to accommodate tempo and pitch changes.
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Acid loops are pre-sliced to accommodate tempo and pitch changes.
Does Reaper recognize the slices? If so, then it might introduce some auto-fades or crossfades, depending on settings. Again, just a theory...\

Can you post a pic of one of these loops in Reaper?
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Old 12-29-2017, 08:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cassembler View Post
Does Reaper recognize the slices? If so, then it might introduce some auto-fades or crossfades, depending on settings. Again, just a theory...\

Can you post a pic of one of these loops in Reaper?
I don't think Reaper supports Acid loops, but it does support REX loops.

I don't use loops myself, so can't help you much on that.

One other thing to remember is that stretched audio might sound a bit better after you render it to a new audio file, depending on your offline vs. realtime resampling preferences.
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:25 PM   #9
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I've done a few tests on your material from 120 to 100 and for me, the best algorithms are elastique pro 3.23 and the new Rubber Band library with percussive detection.
elastique 2.28 doesn't do very well on this percussive material, but I'm surprised you say that they don't do it either, as for my ears there is a very audible difference. In fact, I think I get similar quality as your Acid example.
Granted my test is less extreme as yours. Stretching from 75 to 120 is a bit of a stretch (pun intended) as it is a bit extreme. All algorithms will break down with extreme stretching/compression. But if you had given the original loop, i could have reproduced your test.

Last edited by lolilol1975; 12-29-2017 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 12-30-2017, 03:13 AM   #10
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I tested E2/E3 and it's modes quite a long time ago and don't remember all the details. The conclusion I came to is that efficient/synced mode is the best for percussive material, of course ymmv...
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Old 12-30-2017, 04:16 AM   #11
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Wow! I wasn't expecting this thread to get such a response. It looks as if the solution isn't an obvious one which is a shame.

A few people have asked for the original loop, so I've uploaded it here and made it downloadable:

https://soundcloud.com/user-23795762...nal-loop-75bpm

My suspicion is something cassembler mentioned:

"acidiced loops may have pre-configured points to map the stretches to, particularly for percussive material, which Acid may be 'moving' instead of 'stretching.' Just a theory."

When I load the loop in Acid Pro I notice there are markers inbetween the kicks, hi hats, and claps. Like below:



So perhaps Acid is moving instead of stretching? Is this feature available in Reaper?
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Old 12-30-2017, 04:20 AM   #12
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Yes, but for REX loops. Not sure if it's supported for Acidized WAV.
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Old 12-30-2017, 04:31 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yes, but for REX loops. Not sure if it's supported for Acidized WAV.
Shame

I guess all I can do is request it for the next Reaper release. Not sure how much influence i will have
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Old 12-30-2017, 04:57 AM   #14
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You can try, but it's not a realistic expectation to see it done right in the next version...


Acidized WAV is recognized as media with embedded tempo information, though, however there's no handling of slices like with REX files (there are even options for REX in Preferences).
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:05 AM   #15
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But doesn't Reaper feature an automatic slice function for that purpose?
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:09 AM   #16
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Sure, but it doesn't guarantee best results without a lot of tweaking. Besides, if slices already exist in the media, why not just use them already? Can be done for REX, so why not for other sliced audio formats?
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:10 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
But doesn't Reaper feature an automatic slice function for that purpose?
Can anyone expand on this?
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:11 AM   #18
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Look for dynamic split in actions.


Nonetheless, this wouldn't solve the issue, as these slices wouldn't behave as they already behave for REX. You could create stretch markers with that function, but again, this is stretching, not moving slices (as Acid WAV/REX do).
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:13 AM   #19
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Why does anybody think Reaper is a looping tool ?

Of course support for such would be "nice", but I don't think it's "advertised" for such purpose.

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Old 12-30-2017, 05:16 AM   #20
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Because it CAN loop?
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:19 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Look for dynamic split in actions.


Nonetheless, this wouldn't solve the issue, as these slices wouldn't behave as they already behave for REX. You could create stretch markers with that function, but again, this is stretching, not moving slices (as Acid WAV/REX do).
You're right - just tried it and the results aren't great.
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:19 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Sure, but it doesn't guarantee best results without a lot of tweaking. Besides, if slices already exist in the media, why not just use them already? Can be done for REX, so why not for other sliced audio formats?
Valid point. It would be awesome, if it was possible to get the acid cut info via reascript and apply it to the file.
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:21 AM   #23
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Actually, just noticed this option in Dynamic Split dialog. For both "Split selected items" modes, there's "Set new items forced to beat timebase" checkbox. This actually makes those items follow the tempo, similarly to how REX works.

Of course, you need to slice the item properly first, and Dynamic Split can sometimes be good, but other times utterly useless, depending on the material.
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:35 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
Valid point. It would be awesome, if it was possible to get the acid cut info via reascript and apply it to the file.
I would prefer this rather than manually splitting. If anyone is able to produce such a script please let me know - paid work.

Thanks
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:36 AM   #25
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Yo oh ello-- yea fl still exports wavs as acidized wavs.. it sets regions/markers just like rex does..but it can also set 'sustaining loops' >these markers were made for tempo locking functions.. points are moved to match tempos and i think its only when pitch gets altered that the stretch algor then goes to work.
I dont think rex is much different other than using ph's own stretch algor.
REAPER will read the markers as cue points which can be imported.

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Old 12-30-2017, 07:47 AM   #26
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this is a big turn down for reaper! better quality time stretch is essencial. Is it possible reaper to have elastique pro?
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:02 AM   #27
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Reaper already has Elastique Pro (both versions 2 and 3).
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:11 AM   #28
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sorry my mistake! i just mean the examples provided by OP are night and day ! Reaper should be equal , whatever that is : )
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:16 AM   #29
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Quote:
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sorry my mistake! i just mean the examples provided by OP are night and day ! Reaper should be equal , whatever that is : )
It is, just with a different proprietary format. Buy REX loops instead of Acid loops.
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:20 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
It is, just with a different proprietary format. Buy REX loops instead of Acid loops.
ohh, so for me to get the better results i should rex wav files before importing to reaper?
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:21 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
ohh, so for me to get the better results i should rex wav files before importing to reaper?
I don't know how the slicing works, but REAPER supports REX loops, not Acid loops.
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:26 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
I don't know how the slicing works, but REAPER supports REX loops, not Acid loops.
Thanks a lot Judders. The classic way of doing rex files used to be : ReCycle
but it is a PITA doing it everytime externaly. I must investigate this further.

One thing reaper misses is slicing tool like most daws have. AFAIK
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:30 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
ohh, so for me to get the better results i should rex wav files before importing to reaper?
I tried using Rex loops and the result is much better.

I still think Reaper should support Acidized loops. It does everything else - why not support Acid loops? I’m an Acid user - so a lot of my go to loops are acidized.

Oh well, looks like there’s no immediate solution
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:34 AM   #34
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Eventually it might happen...
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:41 AM   #35
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You could post a feature request for Acid loop support, or bump one if it already exists.
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:47 AM   #36
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Basically propellerheadsoftware cornered that market--theres a range of other ways this has been done over the years-tbh i think soundforge is the 1 of best sample editors still today..
A lot of soft and hardwares use this same ideaology--detecting tempos from transient markers system-- serato being a named dj tool eg..
Ive edited a lot of samples over the years and no automatic detection system is 100% flawless--the most accurate way still today is by manually inserting markers/cue regions..! its painfull,but results are more humanly accuarately placed currently.
Markering audio accurately can have a lot of exellent audio side effects--because these cues can also be used for other types of edits for midi as well--grooves for eg:
Even people speaking n a normal manner will produce certain patterns and grooves if studied.
More options are always welcomed here<> so long they actually ''work well'' !

1 thing to note with reaper currently is--if you place markers,render and include as media cues-- if your changing sample rates on convertion--the markers will sit on samples--so if you downsampling audio--your cues will not sync lock to a higher/lowerproject sample rate.
Also-reaper is using 2 different sync interpolations on playback and renders-- this may affect 'what is being heard realtime' if set to lowest sync type on playbacks.k.
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:49 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1 View Post
Also-reaper is using 2 different sync interpolations on playback and renders-- this may affect 'what is being heard realtime' if set to lowest sync type on playbacks.k.
Of course, you can set playback resampling to be the same quality as when rendering, but at CPU cost (obv).
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:02 AM   #38
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Aye-also-goto any audio properties(f2) and it usually shows a acid chunk- bpm tagged data from savings.
Some think 64point sync is decent enough for quite heavy projects realtime--it does make a whole difference when using 96khz layered multitracking projects.
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:14 AM   #39
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sorry! so what could be the Features that reaper could implement to make this better ?

- Acid support?
- Save as Rex / Acid from markers?
- A native slicer/ sampler?
- Groove Quantize ?

Last edited by deeb; 12-30-2017 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:22 AM   #40
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Quote:
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sorry! so what could be the Features that reaper could implement to make this better ?

- Acid support?
- Save as Rex / Acid from markers?
- A native slicer/ sampler?
- Groove Quantize ?
Acid support would do it for me.

I'm going to submit a feature request later (or find an old one and bump it)
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