Old 07-21-2018, 09:24 AM   #81
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Default Just got the KK Mk 2 (61key)

It is very exciting on top of the MK1 49. More keys and I do need the redundancy/ backup for live shows. They layer well and can operate through a couple of laptops for extra redundancy/backup. My friend who is a Reason freak calls them 'toys'. I have been trying to turn her on to Reaper. I would really like to see her face with me playing heaps of 3rd party synths via Reaper in a live environment.

Please Code Gods answer my prayers and I will play a special set just for the coders. 0

I am wanting to integrate them with my Roland Midi pedal board (two midi pedals and switch buttons). Once I can hard pan a couple of keyboards and guitar with drum hits around a venue using two PA systems (plus one or two subs) Life will be perfect.

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Old 08-01-2018, 08:31 AM   #82
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Since I have posted the problem, I think I should post how it was solved:

* NI hardware could not communicate with NI plug-in under (recent versions of) Sonar and CbB.
* Users have found that things was broken after 1803 Win 10 update.
* NI and BandLab was "working"... without any visible results
* MS has released a new Win 10 update and the problem has disappeared

So, that story with NI has "Happy end". Why something was broken, what was the reason and how that was solved is unclear.
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:40 AM   #83
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Default Thanks AsZlow

I am not sure I follow how something was broken let alone how it was fixed as it seemed to involve W10 and not the DAWs or NI software.

I think that was your point that the problem and solution both remain a mystery.

I have a MK1 and a Mk2 NI KK Bd and I found a dll for reaper in Komplete Kontrol but I am not sure where it goes or what it does. The ordinary Komplete Kontrol dll shows up as a plug in so I wonder why the extra dll on the reaper site.

Does anybody know if KK in Reaper has advanced any further or where it is at? I gather if the Mk2 keyboard is OSC then we should be able to take some OSC integration and modify that for our own workflow right? or maybe not?
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:29 AM   #84
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I understand that no Komplete Kontrol has an Ethernet socket, so it can't natively "have" OSC (as same is based on the TCP which is a network only protocol).

Could it be that the DLL works as an OSC converter talking with the Komplete Kontrol via a (kind of) Midi protocol ?

(Running OSC aware software should be findable in the OS open TCP socket list.)

-Michael
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:20 AM   #85
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I understand that no Komplete Kontrol has an Ethernet socket
-Michael
That is correct. There are no ethernet sockets.The connection is USB only. There are pedal and midi ins and outs which are typically not connected to anything.
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:46 AM   #86
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Ethernet port is not a prerequisite for OSC to work, AFAIK.
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Old 08-20-2018, 08:13 AM   #87
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In fact not Ethernet, but any protocol that allows to transport IP.

There is an "Ethernet over USB" specification, but I don't suppose this is used here.

So I suppose that something propriety is communicated via USB, and hence the dll (or whatever) would provide a virtual network interface for the user software to hook to and exchange OSC (i.e. UDP) packages.

-Michael
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:51 AM   #88
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In fact not Ethernet, but any protocol that allows to transport IP.
OSC has no bindings to any networking, it is a description how to pack named parameters with values into binary form. Not more.
So any system which can transfer packets of bits (and so f.e. USB) can transfer OSC.

But I guess that NI is not using OSC on the hardware level. At the same time I think NI is not using MIDI for that (controlling/display part), just some internal (I guess rather simple) protocol. Than the driver converts it to something else so Komplete VST and DAW integrators plug-ins can use high level protocol. That protocol can be OSC, can be even throw the (local) network stack.
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:01 AM   #89
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-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Sound_Control :
". OSC messages are transported across the internet and within local subnets using UDP/IP and Ethernet. OSC messages between gestural controllers are usually transmitted over serial endpoints of USB wrapped in the SLIP protocol."

OK. I forgot to think about SLIP (which is IP over serial, which in turn can be wrapped in USB (by "CDC"). )

That in fact is possible, but it does not solve the problem how to make any user software access the device via OSC. I doubt that any DAW or such will have an OSC -> (UDP) -> SLIP -> OS-Serial-port wrapper implemented, but it will need an IP socket to connect for doing OSC.

Now again a deriver thingy is necessary to be running that does the IP-Socket -> SLIP -> OS-Serial-port wrapping.

I do suppose that such a software can be found somewhere.

So theoretically NI could use OSC in their hardware, even just adhering to the appropriate standards.

Of couise they also could implement their own OSC via USB tunneling protocol when providing the PC site as a kind of driver.

-Michael

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Old 08-21-2018, 07:22 AM   #90
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That in fact is possible, but it does not solve the problem how to make any user software access the device via OSC.
Perhaps using OSCIIbot?
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:54 AM   #91
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Quote:
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-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Sound_Control :
". OSC messages are transported across the internet and within local subnets using UDP/IP and Ethernet. OSC messages between gestural controllers are usually transmitted over serial endpoints of USB wrapped in the SLIP protocol."
Wikipedia is far from precise information source when it comes to standards and technical details...

From http://opensoundcontrol.org/spec-1_0:
"Open Sound Control (OSC) is an open, transport-independent, message-based protocol developed for communication among computers, sound synthesizers, and other multimedia devices..."
and
"...An OSC packet can be naturally represented by a datagram by a network protocol such as UDP"

And so UDP is just an example of a carrier.

--
What proprietary controllers need for the communication is usually RE from de-compiled scripts for Ableton
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Old 08-22-2018, 04:17 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
I understand that no Komplete Kontrol has an Ethernet socket, so it can't natively "have" OSC (as same is based on the TCP which is a network only protocol).

Could it be that the DLL works as an OSC converter talking with the Komplete Kontrol via a (kind of) Midi protocol ?

(Running OSC aware software should be findable in the OS open TCP socket list.)

-Michael
The DAW talks via OSC to the NIHardwareService running in the background of your computer (Windows + Mac). The NIHardwareService talks to the hardware device via USB. For button presses and LEDs HID is used. For the display they use a proprietary protocol.
I also explain it in this video (starting at about 0:50):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_ITpKDPCVk
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:24 AM   #93
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Great finding !
So "NIHardwareService" is the driver I suspected to exist. Rather obviously it provides an TP socket and can be connected (by Bitwig) via OSC.

So if there is a spec sheet for the OSC command set used by NIHardwareService, it should be possible (e.g. for Geoff) to make thoroughly use of the Komplete Kontrol in Reaper.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-22-2018 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:48 AM   #94
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Of course there's no spec sheet as it's a closed standard (NKS, that is, the way it operates internally). It'd have to be reverse engineered.
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:14 AM   #95
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Of course there's no spec sheet as it's a closed standard (NKS, that is, the way it operates internally). It'd have to be reverse engineered.
(Great) Jürgen's project is LGPL. And the (Java) source code looks like well written ( == easy to understand)
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Old 08-22-2018, 03:51 PM   #96
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Quote:
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Of course there's no spec sheet as it's a closed standard (NKS, that is, the way it operates internally). It'd have to be reverse engineered.
Hmm. Does it fit with BitWig out of the box, or is a Bitwig configuration or extension loaded to do the appropriate connection ? (Seemingly the Java thingy by Jürgen ?!?!?)
In any case some information should be possible to be extracted from this.

-Michael
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Old 08-23-2018, 12:51 AM   #97
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Hmm. Does it fit with BitWig out of the box, or is a Bitwig configuration or extension loaded to do the appropriate connection ? (Seemingly the Java thingy by Jürgen ?!?!?)
In any case some information should be possible to be extracted from this.

-Michael
For Bitwig you need to install my DrivenByMoss extension (which is simply dropping one file into Bitwigs extensions folder: http://www.mossgrabers.de/Software/Bitwig/Bitwig.html

You might not be aware that I also did a port of this extension called DrivenByMoss4Reaper, which you can get here: http://www.mossgrabers.de/Software/Reaper/Reaper.html
Sadly, the Kontrol 2 extension is currently not part of the Reaper port (since I need to send all track data to the NI background service to make it work but I currently implemented automatic 8 page banking in the EEL script (that's also the reason why the MCU driver is only supported for 1 device)).
I currently wasted the last 3 months writing a new C++ backend for all 3 platforms (the Reaper API and extension docs are a nightmare), which I hope to release soon (when Reaper 5.95 gets released) to replace the pretty slow EEL script.
After that I will look into the paging and then support the Kontrol 2 as well.

The Kontrol 2 OSC protocol is very simple since it has a limited feature set (little bit of transport and track control, which you can easily get from the Ableton script or my code). BTW it is currently impossible to support the instance control since the necessary information is only sent to Ableton and Cubase (they check for the DAW name!).
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:33 AM   #98
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You might not be aware that I also did a port of this extension called DrivenByMoss4ReaperI will look into the paging and then support the Kontrol 2 as well.

The Kontrol 2 OSC protocol is very simple.
Yes Yes Pleaeaease. Bravo, Cheers, whoop and Hooray!
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:35 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Hmm. Does it fit with BitWig out of the box, or is a Bitwig configuration or extension loaded to do the appropriate connection ? (Seemingly the Java thingy by Jürgen ?!?!?)
In any case some information should be possible to be extracted from this.
If it did work with BW out of the box, the Java thingie wouldn't be necessary, NI's service would sort it all out directly, but there's no official BW integration yet done by NI.
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:40 AM   #100
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Seemingly the "NIHardwareService" somehow reads the DAW name via OSC and modifies is OSC protocol specs it it detects a "supported" DAW.

Maybe a Reaper support extension (e.g. by Moss or Geoff) would need to pretend to be CuBase or Ableton to be able to use a somehow documented OSC spec sheet.

-Michael
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:00 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Seemingly the "NIHardwareService" somehow reads the DAW name via OSC and modifies is OSC protocol specs it it detects a "supported" DAW.

Maybe a Reaper support extension (e.g. by Moss or Geoff) would need to pretend to be CuBase or Ableton to be able to use a somehow documented OSC spec sheet.

-Michael
No, that is not correct. The "NIHardwareService" can be addressed from anywhere. It is the Komplete Kontrol Plugin I was talking about. It sends its ID via its 1st automation parameter but only to Cubase and Ableton.
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Old 08-30-2018, 02:15 PM   #102
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Just to be sure... with MOSS it's possible to transfer the selected track to the NI S-xx?
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Old 08-31-2018, 12:45 AM   #103
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Just to be sure... with MOSS it's possible to transfer the selected track to the NI S-xx?
What do you mean by "Transfer"?
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Old 08-31-2018, 01:49 AM   #104
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The problem with Komplete Kontrol in Reaper is, that the plugin doesn't get the currently selected track (automatic track focus). Therefore you always have to manually click "track focus" in Komplete Kontrol, in order to update the NI keyboard.
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Old 02-06-2019, 12:03 PM   #105
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Has anybody tried the plugin from James Teh?

https://kk-access.com/2019/01/10/rea...l-integration/
https://osara.reaperaccessibility.co...er_kontrol.dll
Source code: https://github.com/jcsteh/reaKontrol

Looks very promising, supports track control / automatic recognition of the instances of the Komplete Kontrol plugin! I haven't decided on buying a MK2 yet because of the missing integration - hence cannot try it out. If it works I will invest in a MK2.
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Old 02-06-2019, 12:17 PM   #106
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Damn, only Mk2...
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Old 02-06-2019, 01:33 PM   #107
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Damn, only Windows...
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Old 02-06-2019, 02:34 PM   #108
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For Mac: Well, the sources are on github (if you feel so inclined).

What looks really promising from a first glance at the source code is the fact that it is a really lean "hardcore" approach - directly linking the Reaper API to NI's OSC service. Very straight forward, specifically addressing the KK MK2 Sxx series keyboards (does not work with Axx series but there is a 2nd branch that James seems to be working on to address those as well).

An alternative approach is Jürgen Mossgraber's tool:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....mplete+kontrol

This seems to work with an additional abstraction layer (coded in Java) to address many different controllers. Looks like an amazing effort but also more "heavy weight".

Personally I would prefer the direct approach specifically just for the MK2 protocol.

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Old 03-21-2019, 02:20 AM   #109
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James recently updated his driver to support KK Mk2 S, M (and A?) series.

Source: https://github.com/jcsteh/reaKontrol
Binary (Windows): https://kk-access.com/2019/03/14/rea...-supports-m32/
Offers Transport Control and Track Navigation incl KK instance focus

Jürgen has also updated his tool, now V5.9:
http://www.mossgrabers.de/Software/Reaper/Reaper.html
Driven by Moss seems to support an even deeper integration (scene, clip etc).

Briefly looking at the sources suggests that both implementations actually use simple MIDI CC and Sysex messages for Transport Control (everything that was previously supported for MK1 via Mackie MCU standard like PLAY, RECORD, STOP, METRONOME etc) and some basic integration like track navigation (TRACK_NAVIGATION, TRACK_SELECT etc) and auto focus on the KK plugin instance. James has abandoned OSC entirely! He previously used it for transport control inspired by the Ableton scripts provided by NI.

While NI did not implement MCU on the MK2 they apparently stuck with Sysex, just modified the messaging scheme and added some additional commands:

MK1 MCU: Sysex 0xF0 0x00 0x00 0x66 0x14 0x12 0x00 followed by commands/params, separators and 0xF7 (0x00 0x00 0x66 = Mackie ID)

MK2 Track & instance focus : Sysex 0xF0 0x00 0x21 0x09 0x00 0x00 0x44 0x43 0x01 0x00 followed by commands/params/length and 0xF7 (0x00 0x21 0x09 = Native Instruments ID)

MK2 Transport control: MIDI_CC followed by command and value (on the Komplete Kontrol DAW MIDI device). To open a session with the keyboard send MIDI CC 1 on channel 16, to close a session send MIDI CC 2 on channel 16. Once a session is open the transport buttons (and some others) will send MIDI CCs. Simple. You could even go so far to simply MIDI learn them to stuff in Reaper directly.

The OSC messages offer also transport control (similar to Sysex functionality) but on top a much deeper integration with very granular controls for a DAW.

I would be very interested to hear what owners of a KK S series Mk2 experience when using either of the two tools. Also, if there are any negative side effects when using Maschine in combination with KK keyboard and one of these tools.

Once I have the opportunity to test it myself I will share my findings (a KK S88 Mk2 is on order).

Last edited by brummbear; 04-17-2019 at 12:15 PM. Reason: simple MIDI CC for basic transport control on MK2
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Old 03-27-2019, 03:24 AM   #110
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So, still no support for MK1?
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:51 AM   #111
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For Mac: Well, the sources are on github (if you feel so inclined).
I'd be willing to help get this compiled to MacOS, but I have no idea how to build/compile C++ apps. I'm a C#/JavaScript dev by day, so I'm not completely in the dark. If someone can walk me through the basic process, I'll do what I can.
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Old 04-12-2019, 02:25 PM   #112
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Update: I just got a Mk2 and tested with James Teh's reaKontrol mentioned earlier. Works GREAT!!

* Transport Control
* Track & KK Instance Focus (both ways, i.e. selecting with mouse in Reaper or directly from keyboard)

What a joy - thank you @James (https://forum.cockos.com/member.php?u=13325)!

If used together with Reaper's built in "Automatic record-arm when track selected" feature on the corresponding KK tracks this is exactly what I was hoping for.

The sources suggest that he is adding more features and compatibility with keyboards. Mk2 S, M, A, Mk1 S.

There are a few quirks but all seems solvable. The basic and really important functionality is there. Amazing!

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Old 04-12-2019, 04:10 PM   #113
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The sources suggest that he is adding more features and compatibility with keyboards. Mk2 S, M, A, Mk1 S.
Just checked, wow, amazing news!
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Old 04-13-2019, 02:07 AM   #114
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I installed James Teh's reaKontrol. But when I run Reaper, I have the message: "Error opening devices". How to install correctly? Thank you for your help.
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Old 04-13-2019, 08:09 AM   #115
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I just dropped the dll in the UserPlugins folder and everything worked out of the box (Windows here). I used the binary linked in my post above, haven't compiled from the latest sources yet.

Upon further testing I haven't found any major deal breakers yet. reaKontrol works even peacefully along Maschine-KK integration, i.e. you can have a Maschine Plugin running on one track while others tracks host KK plugins. The deep integration between Maschine and the KK Mk2 keyboard still works without problems despite of the fact that the 4D encoder and transport control buttons are then needed for controlling Maschine. I was anticipating issues with reaKontrol competing with Maschine, but to my surprise no issues: Maschine takes over and reaKontrol does not interfere (I assume this works because only one thread can take control of the Komplete Kontrol DAW MIDI and this keeps things neatly separated). Bloody amazing! The best part is that since James makes this open source we can all start contributing or tweaking it to our own needs/workflow.
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Old 04-13-2019, 11:11 AM   #116
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Quote:
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The deep integration between Maschine and the KK Mk2 keyboard still works without problems despite of the fact that the 4D encoder and transport control buttons are then needed for controlling Maschine. I was anticipating issues with reaKontrol competing with Maschine, but to my surprise no issues: Maschine takes over and reaKontrol does not interfere (I assume this works because only one thread can take control of the Komplete Kontrol DAW MIDI and this keeps things neatly separated). Bloody amazing! The best part is that since James makes this open source we can all start contributing or tweaking it to our own needs/workflow.
Are you saying that we can use the transport of the KKMK2 to control Maschine VST running in Reaper?! All whilst using the KKMK2's Maschine integration?!
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Old 04-13-2019, 02:11 PM   #117
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Yes, exactly!

Now you ask: How is that possible with the buttons having double meanings (e.g. Record button on keyboard could mean record an armed track in Reaper or it could mean record a pattern in Maschine)? The nice thing here is instance focus. The KK keyboard knows two types of instances: KK plugin instances and Maschine plugin instances - and it actually discriminates between the two! Those can be accessed via the Instance button on the keyboard. When reaKontrol is running you use auto focus for the KK plugin instances, i.e. you navigate between tracks (either via the keyboard 4D controller or on screen with e.g. your mouse) and the keyboard automatically focuses on the KK plugin instance on the corresponding track. Thus no need to use the Instance button. In fact you cannot even reach a KK plugin instance via the Instance button (as described in the KK manual), but Maschine instances are still listed. If there is no KK plugin on a track the keyboard automatically switches into regular MIDI mode. All of this is really great and exactly as described in the NI manual for supported DAWs. Thus, while you are doing all of this the keyboard's transport control buttons control Reaper's transport control.

Now, if you want to control a particular Maschine plugin (you may have multiple running) on any track you can use the Instance button on the keyboard and select that Maschine instance. Now all of the keyboard's transport buttons, the 4D controller, the Scene, Pattern etc buttons are focused on Maschine and not controlling Reaper anymore. Hence, there is no issue with inadvertently controlling Reaper functions while actually being focused on functions inside the Maschine plugin. When you want to go back to reaKontrol and control Reaper transport, navigate through tracks etc you simply press either the Instance or Midi button once and you are back in Reaper transport control with KK instance auto focus.

However, KK does not allow to split the keyboard controls like you can do with Maschine and Controller Editor (also not after introducing MCU support to KK 2.1.3). If you want both simultaneously, i.e. transport control of Reaper and loop recording control inside of Maschine, while focusing the KK keyboard on a Maschine VST you can achieve that by splitting the Maschine Controller with the Controller Editor to have host transport control via the Mackie protocol. It does work but is not very intuitive since the more natural split would be to have the Maschine Controller control everything inside Maschine and the KK keyboard split between Maschine and host transport control. Another small caveat is that the transport button light on the Maschine Controller will not follow Reaper's transport while Maschine Controller is focused on Maschine VST (but that has always been the case in the past and is not too awful in my mind).

Last edited by brummbear; 06-29-2019 at 03:58 PM. Reason: Remarks after KK 2.1.3 update
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:00 AM   #118
elmuz
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I turned on my S-61 mk2 today. reaper_kontrol.dll is still in the Plugins (Portable installation) folder. But nothing works. And yesterday was ok. I did not change anything. Does anyone have a similar problem? Just today? Maybe some update Win10 did it again?
PS.
It's already ok. I have started Komplete Kontrol separately and everything has returned to normal.

Last edited by elmuz; 04-17-2019 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:33 PM   #119
jteh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elmuz View Post
I turned on my S-61 mk2 today. reaper_kontrol.dll is still in the Plugins (Portable installation) folder. But nothing works. And yesterday was ok.
I've seen rare cases where the NI software doesn't correctly enable the DAW integration when KK is connected/turned on (i.e. it doesn't enable the KK DAW MIDI ports). Disconnecting and reconnecting KK and restarting REAPER sometimes helps. Failing that, you could restart the NI system services (or just reboot if you don't know how to do that).
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:43 PM   #120
jteh
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I tried to add support for S-series Mk1 keyboards. Unfortunately, users have tested and informed me that focus follow doesn't work (which also means track navigation doesn't get enabled). I've tried everything I can think of and I don't have an Mk1, so I'm at a loss as to how to proceed here. If there's a developer with an Mk1 who wants to take a look, I'll happily take a pull request to fix it. Relevant problematic code is here:
https://github.com/jcsteh/reaKontrol...rc/mcu.cpp#L80
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