Old 04-24-2017, 10:59 AM   #1
Z317
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Default NI Komplete Kontrol plugin for Reaper DAW

Hi,

I just wanted to check the interest for a small plugin surface/VST I'm writing for deep integration with the Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol keyboard.

At it's current state the integration is working nicely, but need to put into place a few supporting functionalities and do some testing before I can release a first version.
Obviously this require the Komplete Kontrol suite and a Komplete Kontrol keyboard. Only VST 2.4 is supported at the moment, but let me know if there's any need for VST3/AU as well and I may look into it.

Let me know what you think!

Update:
Great news everyone!

I've finally cleared everything with all external parties and received a GO for launch. Life has unfortunately been a bit stressful lately, so I'm a bit behind on finding a hosting solution. Hopefully I'll have the time to provide you guys with a link after this weekend.

Sit tight!

Last edited by Z317; 03-28-2018 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:14 AM   #2
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You mean you're working on something similar to what comes preinstalled with KK in form of Ableton Live host integration Python scripts? That's cool!
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:51 AM   #3
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How did you get the Shift etc buttons to work? I don't have a KK but tried to lend a hand in this thread...


http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=178482
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Old 04-25-2017, 03:17 AM   #4
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Subscribed!! I use KK extensively. Very interested in the development of this..
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Old 04-25-2017, 04:03 AM   #5
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ditto!
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Old 04-25-2017, 07:19 AM   #6
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Sounds interesting to me too.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:30 AM   #7
Z317
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Great to hear so many interested! Makes it even more fun developing this plug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
You mean you're working on something similar to what comes preinstalled with KK in form of Ableton Live host integration Python scripts? That's cool!
Yup, that's exactly right, and to be honest I've got a lot of inspiration from the Ableton Live python scripts. As soon as I figured out the integration, the scripts helped with setting up the actual functionality.

I'd like to take the opportunity to point out that no reverse engineering or disassembly has been done, or attempted, to create the deep integration. Just a lot of research and "the right kind of clever hacks"...


Quote:
Originally Posted by snooks View Post
How did you get the Shift etc buttons to work? I don't have a KK but tried to lend a hand in this thread...
The shift button is actually not enabled during deep integration (afaik!), and it seems the keyboard isn't sending any information about the shift button anyway.
What does work is track selection from both the keyboard and from the DAW (which updates the keyboard to the correct instance of KK, or midi-mode if no KK instance is on the selected track), and ofc the transport/browse controls.
In fact, it should work almost identical to Ableton Live, unless I've missed something...
One limitation I've been forced to set is exclusive track rec arming, but I may find a way around this in the future.


At the moment I'm writing usability code for reading KK installation paths, online checks for plugin updates and looking at using WDL for x-platform support, since I've only focused on Win64 so far. Should be easy enough to get it working for Win32 as well, but I lack a build environment for Mac and Linux so it will have to come later.
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:01 PM   #8
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Been waiting for these to come down in price before getting one, but also waiting for NI to pull their finger out and make it actually a lot more useful, used one for a week and its deepest integration is Maschine and it is even poor in that, so interested to see what you come up with .
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:02 AM   #9
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Great news ! I'm also very interrested by the track focusing with KK keyboard. Do you plan to release it on ReaPack ? Thank for all !
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Old 05-09-2017, 06:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleskis View Post
Great news ! I'm also very interrested by the track focusing with KK keyboard. Do you plan to release it on ReaPack ? Thank for all !
I was actually unaware of ReaPack, but I'll look into it! Thanks!
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Old 06-04-2017, 12:27 AM   #11
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Great to see development on this, how's the project going?
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Old 06-04-2017, 12:41 AM   #12
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Interesting. Curious to see what you can make of it.
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Old 06-25-2017, 01:40 PM   #13
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I'm interested. Track focus and selection would be welcome features.
And others, I am sure.
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:25 AM   #14
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I am very interested in this. Any updates/progress reports?
I would part with real money to get this.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:54 AM   #15
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OP:
Last Activity: 06-27-2017 09:45 PM

I really hope this is not another vanishing topic..
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Old 08-02-2017, 04:36 PM   #16
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Hi guys! I'm sorry it's taking time. Life has a way of interfering like that...
I'll try to get something out in a week or two. Hang in there!
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Old 08-05-2017, 03:54 PM   #17
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Baited breath, your update gives some hope...
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Old 08-24-2017, 11:07 AM   #18
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While searching what has already been done to give some sort of integration for KK in Reaper i've come across several threads but always had to find them orphaned in the end. Hopefully this one will not share their fate, too.

However, in the first post it is mentioned that a basic integration already exists. Would someone please be willing to briefly guide me how this is done? I am still getting confused by the various ports KK provides and didn't manage to get even my KK transport section to work within Reaper.
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Old 08-24-2017, 11:24 AM   #19
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"Small" update for you guys. A first version of the plugin for Win64 is done, and seems to work nicely on my dev/music computer as well as a laptop for testing!
To protect my own ass, and to show proper respect to NI, I've contacted them and requested written consent for releasing this plugin. Fingers crossed they approve...

At the time of writing I'm working on setting up a url for update notifications and download. I'll update you guys with the address as soon as I hear anything from NI.

Cheers
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Old 08-25-2017, 12:17 AM   #20
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Great news Z317, hope NI are suitably impressed as many of us have been requesting Reaper integration on their support site for ages.
Blind Fish, to get the transport to work, go to Reapers control surface menu and choose Mackie control device with the midi input and output set to Komplete Kontrol Daw-1
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Old 08-25-2017, 02:02 AM   #21
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@Z317: Really good news! As i am battering the NI accessibility threads since the beginning of all time with little to no success i'd be really impressed if they are aiming towards a fast und uncomplicated solution here.

@Mark90: Thanks!
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Old 08-25-2017, 04:38 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z317 View Post
To protect my own ass, and to show proper respect to NI, I've contacted them and requested written consent for releasing this plugin.
Did you need to reverse-engineer some of their work ?
If yes you should seek approval and publish not only the plugin, but also for a documentation about the hidden information.
-Michael
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Old 08-25-2017, 06:42 AM   #23
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So good to see this moving on - sorry for my doubts

@ BlindFish
Works for me

In Reaper Options > Preferences > MIDI Devices
inputs:
KK1 should be Enabled + control
KK EXT disabled
KK DAW 1 disabled

outputs:
all KK disabled

In Reaper Options > Preferences > Control/OSC/WEB :
Control Surface Mode > ADD Mackie Control Universal
MIDI input: KK DAW 1
MIDI output: kk DAW 1

leave the surface offset at 0
and the size tweak at 9
leave the two checkboxes blank

Don't forget to APPLY before ok-ing

I have this in pictures somewhere from a guy on NI forum who comes here too sometimes - Aymara, many thanks to him/her

Here: http://tinyurl.com/yd2ce4hh
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:13 PM   #24
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If this thing will actually happen i will buy a Komplete Kontrol in a blink of an eye.
In fact it is the only reason i haven't yet.
Not spending a small fortune on something that works only partially.
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Old 08-26-2017, 06:47 PM   #25
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How is this different than the kontrol software or is thus a form of deeper Reaper integration or something?
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Old 09-26-2017, 12:28 PM   #26
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I was wondering how this project was progressing. Will the software support the new Generation 2 series of KK keyboards?
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Old 09-26-2017, 06:39 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertP View Post
So good to see this moving on - sorry for my doubts

@ BlindFish
Works for me

In Reaper Options > Preferences > MIDI Devices
inputs:
KK1 should be Enabled + control
KK EXT disabled
KK DAW 1 disabled

outputs:
all KK disabled

In Reaper Options > Preferences > Control/OSC/WEB :
Control Surface Mode > ADD Mackie Control Universal
MIDI input: KK DAW 1
MIDI output: kk DAW 1

leave the surface offset at 0
and the size tweak at 9
leave the two checkboxes blank

Don't forget to APPLY before ok-ing

I have this in pictures somewhere from a guy on NI forum who comes here too sometimes - Aymara, many thanks to him/her

Here: http://tinyurl.com/yd2ce4hh
Worked for me too.Thanks, much appreciated.
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:58 PM   #28
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Any news for the plugin?
I'm also interested, especially now with KK MKii came out.
Keep going Z317!
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Old 10-25-2017, 10:53 PM   #29
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Also interested in progress, as I'm planning to pick up a KK Mk2 in the future.
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Old 10-26-2017, 12:36 AM   #30
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If I'm understanding correctly, this plugin will only work with mkI keyboards, not mkII at all, since mkII integration features are wholly different in the back-end.

So don't go buying mkII and expecting this plug in will work.
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Old 10-26-2017, 05:03 AM   #31
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Sorry, but is the plugin we are talking about here Komplete Kontrol?

If so....

This VST must be loaded onto each Reaper track that is going to use a particular Kontakt instrument / sample (hold your questions on 3rd party stuff for a moment) with the Komplete Kontrol MK2 (KKM2) keyboard.

You create a Reaper track as you would any track for a MIDI instrument you'd play with the keyboard (REC=ARM, Input=Komplete Kontrol (All Ports) {or whatever}, Monitor = On). You then add the Komplete Kontrol VST to the FX of the track.

That's it.

You can now use the display of the KKM2 to navigate your sounds. The Preview function is great for .... well .... previewing. The best and most useful feature I find is the ability to use tags to search across your libraries. When I'm looking for percussive metal sound effects I really don't care which of the numerous libraries I own the sound comes from. Just slap my options on the screen and I'll Preview away.

That's just on the keyboard's display. You can also call up the VST display on your computer (I'm using the Mac version). The KKM2 and VST work completely in sync no matter where you control it from with both displays reflecting what's going on.

Other features, like the SCALE features, work fine with Reaper too. I love this feature as my keyboard skills aren't the greatest and although I know theory and am improving those skills each day I can't remember everything each time a key or scale changes. With this feature the light guides show you which keys you can play and will transpose any keys you strike incorrectly into the nearest valid note so you can't hit an out of key sound.

Solo time anyone ; )

Now to 3rd party apps.... Like NI says, the KKM2 works great with apps written to the Native Kontrol Standard (NKS) which NI provides to developers. I've got Arturia's Mini V2 and V3 and they work just like all the other NI VSTis. While some U-HE products are NKS compliant Zebra2 (the product I use) is not. Hopefully that will change. While I haven't tested any other NKS compliant 3rd party VSTis I'm betting they'll work the same as Arturia's; pretty graphic on one screen. Lots of sound choices on the other. Plus Preview works with them.

In addition the eight potentiometers that are situated below the screens are automatically assigned VST functions (Cutoff, Res, ADSR, Etc...) through NKS on a VSTi to VSTi basis so re-mapping them manually is un-necessary.

For non NKS compliant plugins simply use them on a track as you normally would but assign the KKM2 as their MIDI controller. There you go. Done. There is an editor which allows you to assign control mappings to the VSTi but I have not yet tried this out.

K, before I go on I want to say something that hasn't really been mentioned yet and is sort of an important feature for this device; the keyboard is incredible! Electronics aside the Fatar key bed feels wonderful. I've got some nice keyboards to compare it to by manufacturers like Roland, Moog and Yamaha and the KKM2 keyboard, to me, feels better than them all.

But enough about the silly black and whites. We want knob twiddling and screen flashing...

Integration with Reaper as a DAW; none. The KKM2 dropped the Mackie Control Universal (MCU) standard so the keyboard can't simply be mapped into Reaper via the MCU Control Surface setting. The Transport Buttons don't function in Reaper either. Ditto the knobs.

The buttons which integrate the KKM2 with supported apps like Ableton Live (boo, hiss) also do not work with Reaper. These include Scene, Pattern, Track, Key Mode and Clear.

One nice thing that is integrated well with Reaper is the clock. Change the tempo in Reaper and the tempo on the KKM2 changes in sync.

From what I've read it appears the KKM2 uses Open Sound Control (OSC) to talk to Logic so perhaps Reaper could be better integrated this way.

On that note, no pun intended, all the disco effects with flashy VU meters on the keyboard's displays also do not work with Reaper. Again, perhaps a well developed OSC file could solve this.

For me, none of these integration features matter. I did not buy the keyboard for those features. I've had a number of keyboards at various times mapped up to my DAW functions. I tended not to use them but rather to go back to either the mouse or more often to my iPad running TouchOSC.

What's important to me is smooth workflow when hunting for sounds and easy control of the VSTis. The KKM2 provides this. Feel is also important to me and I really like the way the keyboard plays. I also like the way the unit looks and feels. It's sleek, solid and attractive.

The Pitch and Mod wheels feel awesome! They're nice, big and fat plus they are rubberized for excellent grip and feel. The Mod wheel is not auto-return/centre which I love. When I put I Mod wheel somewhere I want it to stay put.

I've not explored all the features of this excellent device yet but I'm definitely pleased. Is it perfect? No. Nothing is on its first release. Software and Firmware updates are easy though so I'm expecting only better things with this already great product.

So, does it work with Reaper? Hell yeah!

Oh, and if we're not talking about Komplete Kontrol.... never mind
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Old 11-04-2017, 10:14 PM   #32
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This sounds amazing, just having the keyboard update to the correct instance of KK is all I could ask for. And it would be such a positive impact on workflow.

- As it stands, using the instance selection forces you to have titles for each KK plugin (or you won't know which instance to manually select).

- The only way to give KK instances a title is to save your 3rd party plugin as a preset in advance.

- To use, navigate and recall these presets in a single place, you have to save them ALL. And then you have to tag them.

This whole game of NI's plugins being conveniently setup in advance, while making it as painful as possible to setup other plugins yourself, has really depressed me.

Just being able to get track focus on mouse clicking a track could break the whole chain and make things feel like a breath of fresh air ! Really looking forward to what becomes of this project, and I am willing to donate to it if you get the green light.

.... and even if you don't, actually.
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Old 11-29-2017, 05:04 AM   #33
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I am just curious about the plugin audit process at NI. Any new info about that?
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:27 AM   #34
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Got a sad feeling this project is dead.
Z317 please prove me wrong.
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:28 AM   #35
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Got the same feeling, this would be indeed very sad
I don't think Native Instruments will support Reaper anytime, soon.
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:31 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
I don't think Native Instruments will support Reaper anytime, soon.
I'd just be happy to get protocol documentation. There's so many things we could do with this hardware but NI would prefer to cripple it by keeping that capability proprietary. I had the idea to integrate light guide with Reaticulate and have articulations using note-based keyswitches light up. I didn't get very far in reverse engineering it. (At first I thought it was all based on sysex messages but now I think there's more going on via USB.)

I do regret purchasing my S88, truth be told. (Though not only for this reason -- I didn't buy it under any expectation that I'd be able to hack it.)
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:35 AM   #37
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Might be useful a bit: https://www.native-instruments.com/f...lights.320806/
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:36 AM   #38
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Quote:
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Thanks ED. Will give that a read.
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Old 11-30-2017, 11:48 AM   #39
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If someone is able to come up with something great, then it's Jason!
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Old 11-30-2017, 11:59 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tack View Post
I do regret purchasing my S88, truth be told. (Though not only for this reason -- I didn't buy it under any expectation that I'd be able to hack it.)
I hear ya, the keybed is not really pleasant, tbh.
But I already knew that from ED's posts on VI-C. But I didn't expect it to be that bad. It's noisy as hell.

I actually used Komplete Kontrol for all Spitfire compatible libraries.
But in the end, I switched back to Kontakt only, since KK takes very long
to load compared to Kontakt.
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