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Old 01-06-2018, 06:19 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
Setting slopes can indeed be tedious and AFAIK there is no native action to do that. I therefore use these scripts to quickly set all stretch markers:

Code:
...
EDIT: Uploaded to ReaPack instead:
* js_Convert all stretch markers in take under mouse to slopes with starting rate 1.0, to protect transients
* js_Convert all stretch markers in selected items to slopes with starting rate 1.0, to protect transients
Thanks Julian, these look awesome, have to try them out, when I get home!
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Old 03-07-2018, 01:29 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by msandhu View Post
Reaper seems like such an advanced piece of software compared to Acid Pro - I'm struggling to understand how an ancient product like Acid Pro could be providing better results?!
Just coming back to this, as I've posted about some actions in order to make Reaper a 'super-charged' Acid Pro! as its certainly capable.

But i'm using Acid Pro 3.0 so very basic, but its looping was perfect for loop based dance music.

I am the same as the OP, that I can't get Reaper to sound as good as Acid Pro does!?

Way back in Acid Pro 3.0, some users have said its looping was tighter algorithm back then (no idea why) and it was better than elastique for beats and retaining the hits and attacks? Which I am starting to hear!

Reaper is amazing, but how can i be going back to software from 1999 to get a better looping algorithm? lol
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Old 03-08-2018, 04:35 AM   #83
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Way back in Acid Pro 3.0, some users have said its looping was tighter algorithm back then (no idea why) and it was better than elastique for beats and retaining the hits and attacks? Which I am starting to hear!
I do not own Acid Pro, but I am curious to compare its audio stretching with REAPER's. Could you perhaps post an example that demonstrates Acid Pro's tighter stretching? (Including the original audio so that we can try doing it in REAPER too.)

I am particularly interested in how Acid Pro *slows down* beats. The OP has posted an example of sped-up beats, and in those cases REAPER (with dynamic split) should sound exactly like Acid Pro, since no audio stretching is involved -- the beat slices are simply overlapped.
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Old 04-08-2018, 03:33 AM   #84
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Looking at this again, and some users here say that Reaper stretches differently to Acid Pro, so it wasn't as tight? and also that Elastique wasn't as good.

To get the same tight looping as Acid, is there a preferential 'default pitch shifting' mode? I've just noticed 'rubber band' which i'm not sure what it does? and also sub-menus within that?

I stuck to the standard Elastique 3.23 Pro which i thought maybe the latest and best to stick with in projects?
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Old 04-08-2018, 03:58 AM   #85
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Looking at this again, and some users here say that Reaper stretches differently to Acid Pro, so it wasn't as tight? and also that Elastique wasn't as good.

To get the same tight looping as Acid, is there a preferential 'default pitch shifting' mode? I've just noticed 'rubber band' which i'm not sure what it does? and also sub-menus within that?

I stuck to the standard Elastique 3.23 Pro which i thought maybe the latest and best to stick with in projects?
it seems like you are looking for a simple solution where there isn't one. i believe Acid uses some sort of transient detection in it's time stretching process. There are transient detection & stretch marker tools in Reaper that will give you the same results, so i would advise you to learn how they work best for you and maybe make some custom actions etc.
With regard to stretching algorithms - the different options may be better suited to different types of source material - perhaps spend some time with playing with them and getting to know their characteristics
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Old 04-08-2018, 05:53 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
Looking at this again, and some users here say that Reaper stretches differently to Acid Pro, so it wasn't as tight? and also that Elastique wasn't as good.
Could you perhaps post an example that demonstrates Acid Pro's tighter stretching? (Including the original audio so that we can try doing it in REAPER too.)

* I am particularly interested in how Acid Pro *slows down* beats. The OP has posted an example of sped-up beats, and in those cases REAPER (with dynamic split) should sound exactly like Acid Pro, since no audio stretching is involved -- the beat slices are simply overlapped.

* How well does Acid Pro handle wavs that are not acidized, or that contain off-beat transients?

Dynamic splitting before stretching is the natural thing to do, and as domzy pointed out, you must familiarize yourself with REAPER's tools. Melodyne also performs a type of dynamic split when analyzing audio before stretching.

With regard to Rubberband:





The new pre-releases for v5.79 has extra options for time-stretching and transients. Please check them out and comment in the pre-release threads.

Last edited by juliansader; 04-08-2018 at 05:59 AM.
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Old 04-08-2018, 06:12 AM   #87
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It is because of the pre-sliced Acid Loops:

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It must be the acid loops, because the time stretching algorithm is Elastique in both cases (I believe version 2 for Acid Pro, and the choice of 2 or 3 for REAPER).

Acid loops are pre-sliced to accommodate tempo and pitch changes.
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Old 04-08-2018, 07:01 AM   #88
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ACIDized loops are basically sliced loops like REX, so they don't timestretch audio at all, just reposition slices according to tempo, that's where the difference lies.

Sadly Reaper doesn't support ACIDized WAV AFAIK, so loops would need to be converted to REX instead. Although if REX is supported, I don't see any reason not to support ACID format as well...
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Old 04-08-2018, 07:10 AM   #89
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Quote:
Sadly Reaper doesn't support ACIDized WAV AFAIK, so loops would need to be converted to REX instead. Although if REX is supported, I don't see any reason not to support ACID format as well...
Ey-from what i see -reaper actually writes an acid chunk when you included tempo option on export-- seems daft not support acid formats for importing.... i never really used acid-just rex-- or rex1 before when it was not totally controlled by ph---they basically stomped on all the competition..like zero x etc. to gain market control of rex eh... recycle is ph bread n butter - acid is gone as well__ right?
rex can be rubbish in reaper-because basically it's down to the user who creates the rex-- otherwise you get transient nastiness..tbh.. the rex files must be created with attack values at least-- tempo needs to match etc etc. a lot of rex's are not made very well imo.
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Old 04-11-2018, 12:15 PM   #90
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Despite the fact that I was an EE in a previous life (always a musician, however), I have not gotten deep into the issues of looping.

I'm wondering if anybody knows how Ableton Live does it.

I'm a recovering SONAR user and ramping up on Reaper (and Samplitude), but have for a long time now, used Live to build up my grooves using a Roland eDrum kit for input with some hand-percussion and 'found' sounds. I do, however, find Live to be worse than useless for production of lengthy music arrangements, so I just package these up and stream them out to my DAW (pre-effects, just the raw grooves). I have found however, that any audio that I record in Live is stretchable over quite a large range with satisfactory results.
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:27 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
Setting slopes can indeed be tedious and AFAIK there is no native action to do that. I therefore use these scripts to quickly set all stretch markers:

Code:
...
EDIT: Uploaded to ReaPack instead:
* js_Convert all stretch markers in take under mouse to slopes with starting rate 1.0, to protect transients
* js_Convert all stretch markers in selected items to slopes with starting rate 1.0, to protect transients
Thanks Julian! I get way better results using this workflow.
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:23 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msandhu View Post
I tried using Rex loops and the result is much better.

I still think Reaper should support Acidized loops. It does everything else - why not support Acid loops? I’m an Acid user - so a lot of my go to loops are acidized.

Oh well, looks like there’s no immediate solution
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I have had loads of help and reconfigured my set up for Reaper, but still even though it does loads more than Acid with stretching and pitching, I still feel more comfortable in Acid Pro 3.0 from 1999!
If you all already own ACID loops and ACID Pro, why don't you just ReWire it into REAPER?
Alternatively, you can do all your looping in Acid and use ReaRoute to get the audio into REAPER.
Then... stop purchasing Acid Loops and purchase REX Loops in the future if you have no plan to continue with Acid Pro.

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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Sadly Reaper doesn't support ACIDized WAV AFAIK, so loops would need to be converted to REX instead. Although if REX is supported, I don't see any reason not to support ACID format as well...
Because the ACiD format may not be freely released in a way that REAPER Devs can easily implement?

I don't understand why REAPER should need to implement Acid Loops. I mean, if the API is open and there is a large enough demand by users, fine, I'm not opposed.
But, the reality is that you all bought into Sony's proprietary file format and now you expect Cockos to deal with it. How is that fair?

I have Maschine, and it doesn't support Acidized Wav either. It does support REX2 files. And, it runs as a plugin or standalone in other DAWs. So, it appears to me that the REX filetype is the industry standard, not Acidized wavs. Perhaps there is a standalone tool that can convert Acid Loops to REX?

This is a prime example of why I try to avoid proprietary file types. They are created to lock you into a particular product. When you want to leave that product then often you are just screwed. Exactly why I do not use Apple products.
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:47 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by shmuelyosef View Post
I'm wondering if anybody knows how Ableton Live does it.
The Ableton algorithm is developed by IRCAM in Paris. They also make Flux plugins. It is a high level institute for audio and acoustics funded by the French state. It's a huge structure with people with overdeveloped brains.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRCAM
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:59 AM   #94
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The Ableton algorithm is developed by IRCAM in Paris. They also make Flux plugins. It is a high level institute for audio and acoustics funded by the French state. It's a huge structure with people with overdeveloped brains.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRCAM
i thought that ableton used zplane algorithms?

http://licensing.zplane.berlin/index.php?page=home
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:18 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by insub View Post
If you all already own ACID loops and ACID Pro, why don't you just ReWire it into REAPER?
I use Acid Pro 3.0, old i know, but rock solid from the SoFo days, and unfortunately no Rewire (or else I would)

I did use Acid Pro 6 for a while, but again I think this can only be the Rewire master, and not the slave - I'd use it as a slave to Mix 'into' Reaper.
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:43 PM   #96
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Because the ACiD format may not be freely released in a way that REAPER Devs can easily implement?

I don't understand why REAPER should need to implement Acid Loops. I mean, if the API is open and there is a large enough demand by users, fine, I'm not opposed.
But, the reality is that you all bought into Sony's proprietary file format and now you expect Cockos to deal with it. How is that fair?
Well, if Kontakt can support ACIDized WAV, FL Studio can save and load ACIDized WAV, etc. I see no reason why Reaper couldn't, again...

And seems that most of ACID RIFF chunk is already available online, so it doesn't seem to be THAT proprietary as REX is (which forces you to use a dynamically linked library that was made by Propellerhead, which is the very definition of proprietary)...

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/posti...f=33&p=3061898

Looks like ACIDized WAV uses regular WAV cue markers as slice markers, too (correct me if I'm wrong). And Reaper can write and read these cue markers (they are called "media cues" in Reaper's action list), so I'm again not exactly sure why this isn't already implemented in Reaper. It's basically all in there already, just needs to be hooked to the same function that handles REX slices...

Last edited by EvilDragon; 04-13-2018 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 04-13-2018, 01:15 PM   #97
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I still use ACID but not all the time... I find my tempo and import those ACID rendered tracks to my Reaper project... It's a work around, but it works okay for me.
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Old 04-13-2018, 11:12 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/posti...f=33&p=3061898

Looks like ACIDized WAV uses regular WAV cue markers as slice markers, too (correct me if I'm wrong). And Reaper can write and read these cue markers (they are called "media cues" in Reaper's action list), so I'm again not exactly sure why this isn't already implemented in Reaper. It's basically all in there already, just needs to be hooked to the same function that handles REX slices...
I can be wrong, but REX has separate slices while ACIDized WAV is just a WAV. So in REX slices can overlap and in ACID WAV can not. At least that is an explanation why drums are normally in REX loops and the rest is in WAVs loops.
In other words, REX is split into time based items (as Reaper allows explicitly) while ACID WAV representation is one item with stretch markers (that is what Reaper does not do automatically at the moment).
Then the question is what information is really available in an ACID slice chunk, f.e. does it has "speed"? I do not have ACID itself, so I can not test. Sonar see/use/save ACID slices, but it does not expose slice speed parameter.
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:51 AM   #99
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I use Acid Pro 3.0, old i know, but rock solid from the SoFo days, and unfortunately no Rewire (or else I would)

I did use Acid Pro 6 for a while, but again I think this can only be the Rewire master, and not the slave - I'd use it as a slave to Mix 'into' Reaper.
Well, that's too bad. Is ReaRoute an option then? I'm trying to offer an immediate workaround. I assume that Acid will not export its loops as REX, and even if it does, that would be nearly impossible for large libraries of Acid Loops.

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Well, if Kontakt can support ACIDized WAV, FL Studio can save and load ACIDized WAV, etc. I see no reason why Reaper couldn't, again...

And seems that most of ACID RIFF chunk is already available online, so it doesn't seem to be THAT proprietary as REX is (which forces you to use a dynamically linked library that was made by Propellerhead, which is the very definition of proprietary)...

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/posti...f=33&p=3061898

Looks like ACIDized WAV uses regular WAV cue markers as slice markers, too (correct me if I'm wrong). And Reaper can write and read these cue markers (they are called "media cues" in Reaper's action list), so I'm again not exactly sure why this isn't already implemented in Reaper. It's basically all in there already, just needs to be hooked to the same function that handles REX slices...
Huh, well I didn't know any of that. If most of the functionality is already available in REAPER then maybe it will not be too much work for the REAPER devs. Has Acid Loop support been officially feature requested before?
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:54 AM   #100
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I can be wrong, but REX has separate slices while ACIDized WAV is just a WAV.
ACIDized WAV can also have slices/slice markers, just like REX.


Quote:
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Has Acid Loop support been officially feature requested before?
Yes.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=76514

2011.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=25278

2008.
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Old 04-14-2018, 12:54 PM   #101
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ACIDized WAV can also have slices/slice markers, just like REX.
My english is not so good. I mean the information stored for the slice in ACID, in particular program. So (see the second post):
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...0029&p=1788902

Slices itself are a bit different:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/1241790
Try to import some REX. You will see that some or all slices overlap. That is probably not possible with WAV, if you just play it sounds continuously. I mean there is no place to store "prefix" and/or "suffix" for particular slice. It starts where the previous ends and ends before the next starts.
Just like separate items vs stretch markers in one item.
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Old 04-14-2018, 01:01 PM   #102
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It's still a slice. REX handles them a bit differently (those overlaps are optional AFAIK - not mandatory, but they do help when slowing things down a bit), but they're all still called slices - be it ACIDized WAV, REX, or Apple Loops.
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:45 AM   #103
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Just looking at Acid Pro 3.0 again alongside Reaper (latest) and think that Acid 'maybe' quicker and more responsive side-by-side, is that Acid does everything in RAM? (loops etc)

Can Reaper do this? or does it already?
If not, would it be quicker for Reaper to do everything in RAM (a preference perhaps?) which may speed it up a little like Acid?

just my 2c..
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:12 AM   #104
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Can Reaper do this? or does it already?
If not, would it be quicker for Reaper to do everything in RAM (a preference perhaps?) which may speed it up a little like Acid?
No, Reaper does not have an option itself to play audio files from RAM. However, the operating system may well be caching the files in RAM anyway.

I doubt the RAM option would help anything, at least if the audio files are on SSD drives. Maybe there would be some small improvement for systems which use rotating hard drives.

What exactly are you finding "slow" in Reaper with regards to audio files handling? Are you sure it is about file access and not something else like 3rd party plugins?
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:17 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
What exactly are you finding "slow" in Reaper with regards to audio files handling? Are you sure it is about file access and not something else like 3rd party plugins?
I am just using Acid Pro (older version) alongside Reaper, as a way of replacing Acid with Reaper as they are so similar.

Firstly Reaper's stretching didnt seem as tight as Acid's but I did change Reaper stretch Algorithm which made it slightly better and in comparison.

Then clicking on previewing tracks and the same loops in Reaper, just seems slow, against Acid? This is what possibly led me to think it was Acid's old way of putting the samples and loops in RAM? which makes them snappy...

I don't use any 3rd party plug ins on Acid or Reaper so it can't be that..
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:40 AM   #106
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I am just using Acid Pro (older version) alongside Reaper, as a way of replacing Acid with Reaper as they are so similar.

Firstly Reaper's stretching didnt seem as tight as Acid's but I did change Reaper stretch Algorithm which made it slightly better and in comparison.

Then clicking on previewing tracks and the same loops in Reaper, just seems slow, against Acid? This is what possibly led me to think it was Acid's old way of putting the samples and loops in RAM? which makes them snappy...
How time stretch sounds has nothing to do with whether the sound is read from the hard drive or RAM, it's about what algorithm is used and how it is implemented. If the hard drive can't keep up, the sound will be glitchy during playback, it's not just some vague difference.

I guess you need to make a video about the speed differences or something.
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Old 06-24-2019, 05:59 PM   #107
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Default Time Stretching in Reaper

If you need to experiment with some free drum loops, just head over to our trials page:

https://betamonkey.com/free-drum-loops/

There should be REX2 format loops in the trial .zip for you to compare results to the .WAV format ones. Apple ones in there as well for anyone needing those.

Someone earlier mentioned what a major PITA ass it is to convert .WAV to REX2 - indeed, it is. Having had a hand on nearly every one of the Beta Monkey drum loop libraries, the time spent in ReCycle is extensive!

Beta Monkey - Recording the best drum loops found anywhere since 2002.
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