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Old 04-07-2021, 07:28 AM   #1
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Default Quadraphonic file rendering

How can I render a file not in stereo (2 tracks or channels), but in quadraphonic ( 4 tracks or channels) so that the file can be played on a quadraphonic or surround system. The mix is in 4 tracks.
I tried these settings but it still came out in stereo.
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Last edited by Create; 04-08-2021 at 04:24 AM.
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Old 04-07-2021, 01:44 PM   #2
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Create a 4 channel track with your tracks routed to individual channels of it... then render stem of this track with multichannel tracks to multichannel files ticked.
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Old 04-08-2021, 03:57 AM   #3
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Create a 4 channel track with your tracks routed to individual channels of it... then render stem of this track with multichannel tracks to multichannel files ticked.
I am still a newbie, so I have downloaded a few instructional videos related to the subject to see if I manage to follow your instructions after having understood them. It sounds more complicated than I expected. I would much appreciate more detailed instructions. Basically I must learn to create a 4 channel track, learn to rout individual channels to it and understand what a stem is.
Thank you so much for your expert reply.

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Old 04-08-2021, 06:34 AM   #4
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Choose quad (4 channel) output format and/or tick the box for multichannel track to multichannel file.

Your mix bus should be 4 track channels. (Or the Reaper master if you use that. Using a mix bus track is usually easier but that's another discussion.)

You probably knew that part already?

Here's the tip you're looking for:

Render to a 5.1 file instead with digitally silent/blank C and Lfe channels.
Reason: There are a LOT of home AV receivers and media player apps out in the world that were not programmed to recognize any of the audio channel formats except 2.0 and 5.1. This is really a thing! These rogue devices/apps either don't play the file at all or play it with incorrect channel assignments (wrong speakers).

Maybe you're fighting with that right now?

Do yourself and everyone else a favor and put 4.0 program into 5.1 containers.
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Old 04-09-2021, 04:45 AM   #5
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Will do. I have ordered a USB sound card 7.1 and a 6 channel USB external sound card 5.1 recommended by members of Quad forum to hook up my laptop, 2 stereo or 4 mono amps and 4 speakers. The cards will take over a week to arrive.
Since I have no way of testing if the file works intill the cards arrive I'd like to post the finished file here. If you have equipment to test such a file. Please keep checking this thread for the file.
Thanks again.

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Old 04-09-2021, 09:31 AM   #6
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What are you using for an audio interface at present? An HDMI connected AVR perhaps?

It sounds like you are considering trying to connect multiple interfaces moving forward? Both pci card units and USB connecting units?

If you're shopping for an upgrade to a consumer AVR, you might want to consider starting with an interface that has all the outputs you currently want. Combining multiple audio interfaces with aggregate device config is a thing of course! Careful though! Many budget pci card models and USB models lack the word clock or digital audio inputs to easily connect the sample rate clock between them. A requirement for aggregate device config.

I'd recommend just looking for a USB connecting interface that has enough outputs for your needs today.

If you're using a AVR right now (thunderbolt to HDMI cable from computer to AVR), are you having issues with surround output?
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Old 04-09-2021, 06:54 PM   #7
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What are you using for an audio interface at present? An HDMI connected AVR perhaps?

It sounds like you are considering trying to connect multiple interfaces moving forward? Both pci card units and USB connecting units?

If you're shopping for an upgrade to a consumer AVR, you might want to consider starting with an interface that has all the outputs you currently want. Combining multiple audio interfaces with aggregate device config is a thing of course! Careful though! Many budget pci card models and USB models lack the word clock or digital audio inputs to easily connect the sample rate clock between them. A requirement for aggregate device config.

I'd recommend just looking for a USB connecting interface that has enough outputs for your needs today.

If you're using a AVR right now (thunderbolt to HDMI cable from computer to AVR), are you having issues with surround output?
All I want to do is make 4 track playable files from my Sibelius software compositions.
I'm actually extreamly confused with all the terminology. All I have at the moment is Sibelius Software which I love because I have composed so much on it. I also have REAPER which I have almost 0 experience with. I listen to my compositions through very good earphones only. I'm quite satisfied with the relative simplicity of this setup because my interest is exclusively composing on Sibelius.
My idea is as a fun project to use Reaper to render 4 track files of my Sibelius multytrack compositions and hear them quadraphonically through either a home quadraphonic or a surround sound system.
In the Quad forum someone recommended what he uses for playing 4 track files thru his quad sistem. Basically Laptop connected to the card I have ordered connected to a quad audio system.

Thank you for the interest.
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Old 04-10-2021, 06:39 AM   #8
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So you don't have any surround system at all yet?

A laptop adapting to a pci card cage to use a pci card with it would be a PITA!
Extra expense too.

If you don't have anything yet (surround-wise), a Tascam US-1800 (a USB connecting audio interface) would give you enough outputs for 5.1 right out of the box. I know you were after 4.0 quad initially. You'd have that and be able to expand to 5.1 when you grabbed more speakers. And you wouldn't have to poke around with aggregate device config and adapting pci cards to a laptop. If you're confused and looking for the simple solution... that sure isn't it!

That interface would only set you back $300 for a new one. Or shop Ebay.
If your tastes are more boutique than that... look up audio interfaces from Prism or Apogee.

The other way to do it is computer -> thunderbolt to HDMI cable -> HDMI AVR
Caveats:
There are computers sold with restricted HDMI ports that silence any audio! Especially the Windows netbook style machines. They won't work.
There are AVRs with restricted HDMI inputs! Again, silencing audio.
Slick setup with the right gear! Insultingly stupid and broken with some of the ringer examples!

The USB audio interface with analog outputs always works. Plug into any amps/speakers you like. All computers have USB.

HDMI devices can be a PITA. Hence the caveat above. It's usually 'copy protection gone wild' kind of stuff. (If they can't even play it, they can't copy it!) It would be kind of a wild ride of confusion if you're trying to learn how to connect and run this stuff but you have a rogue "silencer" feature messing with you the whole time!
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Old 04-11-2021, 05:43 PM   #9
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Thanks again for your interest, my situation is a little complex to explain, I am in Colombia, have been here all during the pandemic without being able to travel, I don't want to invest here in more audio equipment. We are planning on living in France, there I will probably buy a simple 5.1 system since apparently as I have been informed by forum members one can use it as quad, it is also more comercial and therefore better value for money. Here I will simply try to learn to make the playable 4 and 5 channel playable tracks following advice in this forum, in order to do this without relying on other people to test them which slows the process; I will attempt just to test the files, to use the extreamly inexpensive 5.1 card I have ordered to connect my laptop to 2 very old stereo amps and 4 very old but good speakers I have. It will be a slow process but I hope I will manage it with the help and good will of you forum members.
Thanks again.
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Old 04-12-2021, 09:20 AM   #10
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Hey Create,

All good.

FYI, the 2 channels in stereo are full range audio channels. Quad is simply 4 full range channels. 5.1 is simply 5 full range audio channels plus an additional bass only extra channel.

The 4 channels in quad are the same 4 channels in 5.1. 5.1 just adds the center channel and the extra bass fx channel.

There isn't anything cryptic. It's really straight 1:1 like that. You use a joystick on the mixing board instead of just a knob to pan around and be able to position among the speakers.

Quad plays directly in a 5.1 array.
And you could play 5.1 reasonably in a quad speaker array by directing the C and Lfe channels into your front pair.

I still recommend a USB connecting audio interface like I mentioned above. You would have the outputs you needed to connect to any amps/speakers you come across. And then you'd have inputs for recording which you will obviously be needing for that.

PCI card connecting units are not inherently better than USB connecting. You would need a thunderbolt connecting PCI card cage to be able to use a card with a laptop. More expense and complex to connect. If you are trying to be frugal with money, go with a USB connecting interface instead of a pci card. There are also more choices available.
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Old 04-12-2021, 09:39 AM   #11
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Thanks again for your interest, my situation is a little complex to explain, I am in Colombia, have been here all during the pandemic without being able to travel, I don't want to invest here in more audio equipment. We are planning on living in France, there I will probably buy a 5.1 system following your advice and other forum members advice, one can use it as quad, it is also more comercial and therefore better value for money. Here I will simply try to learn to make the playable 4 and 5 channel tracks again following your and advice in this forum, in order to do this without relying on other people to test the files which slows the process; I will attempt just to use the extreamly inexpensive 5.1 card I have ordered to connect my laptop to 2 very old stereo amps and 4 very old but good speakers I have here. It will be a slow process but I hope I will manage it with the help and good will of you forum members.
Thanks again.
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:17 PM   #12
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Default Gave but but am trying again

Gave up but am trying again.
As stated in 04-12-2021
I will try to get started with the little I have here before travelling to France in a few months. Laptop, Reaper, extremely inexpensive 5.1 card which also has setting for 4 tracks. 4 tiny speakers, Fobar2000 player.
I have managed to test the equipment with the test in the 5.1 card software, 4 tracks are sent correctly to 4 speakers.
I have followed serr's exact instructions for rendering the 4 track file.
Still the 4 track FLAC file from REAPER shows up as having two empty tracks in the UV meter of the Fobar2000 player and is reproduced as stereo.
Am I rendering the FLAC file incorrectly?
Is the four track turning into stereo somewhere along thew line?
Do I need a special player?
I hope someone can help.
Thank you so much.
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Old 05-17-2021, 08:31 AM   #13
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I'm still curious how you plan to plug a pci card into a laptop and if this part is understood?

That aside for now...

Today's lesson to create a quad test file:

Record yourself speaking.
Say "Left channel... left channel..."
Then "Right channel...", then "Left rear...", and finally "Right rear..."

Just like the guy on the cheesy budget turntable setup records from back in the day.

Put those 4 bits on their own individual 4 tracks.
(Or find audio samples of some kind if you don't care to record yourself. Put them on 4 individual tracks.)

We'll use the Reaper master to make this easy with stock defaults.

Open the I/O dialog on the master bus.
Set the track channels to 6. (We're doing 4.0 in a 5.1 container like I suggested.)

Open the I/O dialog for the first track with your audio.
Set the 'parent channels' for this track to 1/2.
(The master/parent send should already be ticked and parent channels 1/2 will already be the choice by default. Assuming stock default Reaper.)
Pan this track fully left on the mixer.

Second track "right channel". Same master/parent ticked and parent channels 1/2 selected. Pan this track fully right.

Third track "left rear".
This time change the 'parent channels' for this track to 5/6!
Pan this track fully left.

Forth track "right rear". Parent channels to 5/6 again. Pan the track fully right.

Now you should see the meters moving on the master bus for 4 of the 6 channels. The C and Lfe (parent channels 3 and 4) will remain blank.

Make a time selection of the audio you recorded (or sampled).
Open the render window and select master output for source and time selection for bounds.
Select 6 channel format.
Tick the box for multichannel track to multichannel file.
Choose your output file format. Flac and 24 bit is the most recommended and compatible with different media player apps.

If you import that rendered file back into Reaper, you should see a six channel file (6 lanes instead of the familiar two) with the two middle channels blank.


You should be able to hear this output live as you're mixing it. You might be having issues connecting to your audio interface of course. The part above will get you started at least routing the mixer and creating a valid surround file even if you don't have the interface connection working yet. Unless there's a big miscommunication with terms here (like when people call a hard drive a modem), you aren't going to connect a pci card to a laptop very easily. So there's probably more to go over with that.
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Old 05-17-2021, 09:05 AM   #14
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Quote:
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I'm still curious how you plan to plug a pci card into a laptop and if this part is understood?
why do you think the poster plans to do this?
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Old 05-17-2021, 09:29 AM   #15
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why do you think the poster plans to do this?
I suspect it's a miscommunication of course. (I hope the poster isn't really sitting there with a pci card and a laptop purchased from a bad tip. But offering the comment just in case.) The comment kept coming up so I kept noting it is all. I'm aware some people call audio interfaces "cards" even when they are a box that connects with a cord. (And the display is the "computer". That tower thing is the "hard drive" and the external thingy you copy files to is the "modem", right? )

You've potentially got a few things working against you with surround right out of the box. An audio interface connection beyond just two channels. File formats with more than two channels. Routing on the mixing board you never considered before. Consumer products with copy protection gone wild that silence things even when they're hooked up correctly and operated correctly.

Any one of those scenarios results in silenced audio. Here's all of them at once! Ready, set, go!

PCI connecting devices are already thing. USB connecting devices are a thing. Those things are different things. That's all.
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Old 05-17-2021, 11:09 AM   #16
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Default Unable to render 4 track FLAC file correctly.

Unable to render 4 track FLAC file correctly.
Original REAPER project is 4 track audio. (Not midi)

This are my render to file settings.
Source: Master mix.
Chanels:4
Multichannel tracks to Multichannel files.
Format: FLAC

When I play the rendered file on a Fobar2000 player 4 tracks appear but 2 are empty.
I have posted the file on Quadraphonic forum and members confirm 4 track file with sound on only 2 tracks.

What am I doing wrong ? Is the file converted at some point into stereo leaving 2 tracks empty ? Or am I omitting some vital step before rendering ?

Thank you for your help.
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Old 05-17-2021, 12:01 PM   #17
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does the resulting (stereo) file contain just 2 of the expected tracks, or is it a mix of all 4?

how do you have the tracks routed?
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Old 05-17-2021, 12:03 PM   #18
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is your master track 4 channels?
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Old 05-17-2021, 12:04 PM   #19
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Thank you serr for the long detail explanation. I didn't find your reply so I posted another thread a few minutes ago. You clearly have the answer. Still some terminology I am not familiar with. I wonder if you yould be so kind and guide me in real time through WhatsApp or Skype or DUO? Probably an unreasonable request.

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Old 05-17-2021, 12:39 PM   #20
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAuzRzAWqgQ&t=19s

Very cheap so called card indeed I agree. But a few Quadraphonic forum audiophiles say they are successfully using this to listen to 4 track files through 4 speakers with this.
If this is impossible then I will have to wait a few months till I buy the necessary equipment in France.
However learning to render a file with multi tracks must be a start.
So I hope I can soon learn to do that.
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Old 05-17-2021, 07:13 PM   #21
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I believe I've managed to follow your detailed instructions, I did not start a new project but used the one I have been trying to render all this time which has 4 tracks, (flout, Tambourine, Acoustic Guitar, 12 string Guitar)
I have not rendered it yet because although the meters on the 4 tracks move the last two tracks are now silent, I suspect something to do with having changed the 'parent channels' for this two tracks from 1/2 to 5/6 when there are only 4 tracks. Il try placing two empty tacks between track 2 and track 5......Nope, two guitars still silent. I'll continue tomorrow.

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Old 05-18-2021, 06:01 AM   #22
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Default I refer this thread to Quadraphonic file Regarding thread

I refer this thread to Quadraphonic file Rendering thread

I apologise, I started this thread believing that my first thread on this subject would not be answered but it has and has much more content on exactly the same subject. It is absurd and confusing to answer both so please if you wish continue on the original thread and thank you for all your support.
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Old 05-18-2021, 06:20 AM   #23
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tried it and i im only get 2 channels also...
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Old 05-18-2021, 06:30 PM   #24
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The C and Lfe (parent channels 3 and 4) will remain blank.
This I'm not quite sure if I understand.


Again followed instructions exactly, did not manage to check by importing into REAPER again.
Using Foobar 2000 to check. It shows the channels, it is correctly showing FL. FR FC LFE RL RR
But only FL and RR have sound all other tracks empty. Original has 4 distinct tracks.

I transfer the file from PC to Laptop on USB memory stick.

Last edited by Create; 05-19-2021 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 05-20-2021, 07:50 AM   #25
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You must not be selecting parent channels 5/6 on the source tracks in question.
Or you don't have 6 track channels selected on the master.

On the master bus:
Click the I/O button.
Change track channels from 2 to 6.

On the track you want to route to the rear channels:
Click the I/O button.
Select channels 5/6 from the parent channels menu.

Here's a Reaper session with a single track with a JS tone generator inserted. (Play mode engaged on the track and rec armed so it is making sound.) This track is routed to parent channels 5/6 on the master.

Take a look at the settings and menu controls I mentioned and it should become clear.
Route to channel pairs. Use the pan to pan to one or the other or both of that pair.

Here's a WeTransfer link. I'd just post is as an attachment but this forum bans attachments via a too small size restriction.
https://wetransfer.com/downloads/b32...0144925/43bbfe


Once you finally see the routing controls you can get fancy with your mix with subgroups and joystick surround panners and all that.

The reason I'm prodding you to make a standard 5.1 file with blank C and Lfe channels if for compatibility with media players. Some players only recognize 2.0 or 5.1 file formats (even though 4.0 is very much a standard). I'm saving you the step where you make an actual valid 4.0 file but then it still doesn't play right on some media players and then you go in circles for a while until you discover this part.

Last edited by serr; 05-20-2021 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 05-20-2021, 08:41 AM   #26
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You linked a video above of someone holding what looks like a little USB connecting audio interface. I didn't catch the make/model. It honestly looks like a fine starting point for a USB interface at the very least! That kind of device is in fact what I was recommending you look at instead of a card (pci connecting). (That device isn't a card that plugs into the inside of a computer tower. You connect it with a standard USB cable.)

It's probably class compliant for Mac. Plug it in and go. You probably need to install a driver for Windows. Go to their website to download it.

Have fun getting started mixing in surround!

Check out almost any surround mixes by Alan Parsons, Bob Clearmountain, or Steve Wilson. Their mix work in surround is masterful. This is how it's done!

Last edited by serr; 05-23-2021 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 05-22-2021, 04:36 PM   #27
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Default I give up for now.

followed Serr's kindly detailed advice exactly and still only 2 tracks with sound regardless of how many tracks total.
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Old 05-23-2021, 05:00 AM   #28
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Quote:
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followed Serr's kindly detailed advice exactly and still only 2 tracks with sound regardless of how many tracks total.
Are you saying that the .rpp project I shared with you is sending the tone generator to channels 1/2?!? Even though it's routed to 5/6 and the meters for channels 5/6 are moving? I think that's impossible. It's a single JS tone generator plugin routed to the master on parent channels 5/6. When I open it here, channels 5/6 are moving on the master. 1/2 are silent.

Can you post a screen shot of that working differently for you?
Something really odd is going on with your system and messing with you apparently?

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Old 05-23-2021, 11:03 AM   #29
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serr's example project with the render window set to 6 channels


results in 6 channel flac file with audio on channels 5-6.

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Old 05-23-2021, 03:30 PM   #30
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Default Exactly

No matter how many channels one sets, 4 or 6, something happens and it is reduced to 2 channel, stereo.

I tried to post screen shots but the resolution allowed is so small you can't see anything, yet they are exactly like the ones in the previous reply by EpicSounds

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Old 05-23-2021, 04:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
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Are you saying that the .rpp project I shared with you is sending the tone generator to channels 1/2?!? Even though it's routed to 5/6 and the meters for channels 5/6 are moving? I think that's impossible. It's a single JS tone generator plugin routed to the master on parent channels 5/6. When I open it here, channels 5/6 are moving on the master. 1/2 are silent.

Can you post a screen shot of that working differently for you?
Something really odd is going on with your system and messing with you apparently?
I though the idea was to get 4 channels moving,1/2 and 5/6, not just 5/6

I did not use the file you sent, I used my REAPER project with 4 tracks one instrument on each track.
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Old 05-23-2021, 04:03 PM   #32
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You should see this.
I have the I/O dialog open on the master track.
Note the track channels set to 6 there.
Note visible signal on channels 5/6 on the master track meter.
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Old 05-23-2021, 04:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Create View Post
I though the idea was to get 4 channels moving,1/2 and 5/6, not just 5/6
I'm trying to get you started! (I tried that the first time actually.) The aim here was to get signal on channels other than 1/2 for you and demonstrate how to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Create View Post
I did not use the file you sent, I used my REAPER project with 4 tracks one instrument on each track.
The idea was for you to take a look at the settings and hopefully see the part you were missing.

I'll just wish you good luck with this.
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Old 05-24-2021, 07:44 AM   #34
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Sorry for the misunderstanding, I will try doing as you say. I hope it works. I will post my results. Thanks again for your patience and your help.
Loaded Serr's file but could not render it, render button greyed out. I think I must take some private lessons and stop bothering members with this. It is to much. Thanks for all the help.

Last edited by Create; 05-24-2021 at 06:17 PM.
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