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Old 12-29-2021, 11:23 AM   #1
GtrGeorge
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Default It's 2022...what PC would you recommend for Reaper?

Maybe it's time to upgrade. Even with BabyFace Pro FS ,once I have 24 tracks up...latency is an issue.
Thank you for advice,in advance.
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Old 12-30-2021, 05:47 AM   #2
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IMHO a really bad time for such a decision.

The Apple M1 line of chips changed a lot. It reversed the price/performance ratio advantage between Mac and PC, while providing a very clear power consumption advantage with Mac.

But of course it's not perfect to run Intel software on ARM arch (by Rosetta).

And while Reaper does have a native ARM version, right now a huge lot of important 3rd party plugins is not available in native ARM versions. Hence even comparing performance is a problem.

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Old 12-30-2021, 09:15 PM   #3
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Default so far..no clear way forward

Ok, so far..no clear way forward (at least to my Monkey Brain)..anyone else care to chime in?
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Old 12-31-2021, 03:00 AM   #4
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I`m sitting on the fence too.

None of my computers are going to be upgradable to win 11 & my 2011 Mac Mini Server is stuck waaay back. Whilst they all still work, especially the Mac, which can still run my focusrite Liquidmix 32, I can`t help worrying that none of them will last much longer. The Mac is actually the newest one!

On the other hand, the Macs are too early on in a new very different architecture & I am very suspicious of the way that both Microsoft and Apple are trying to adapt their hardware as non-updateable non-upgradeable service goods like fridges & cookers.

My take on this is looking very seriously at Linux, although so far I have managed to install Reaper and many of my plugins with no problems, sadly I still need to be able to run the core ones like Toontrack & Native Instruments, which don`t do Linuk version. And installing WINE etc is doing my head in - I just don`t get how it is supposed to work.

So hence sitting on the fence.
At least our existing DAW setup is unlikely to just drop dead due to software changes, or so I assum.
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Old 12-31-2021, 05:24 AM   #5
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Ok, so far..no clear way forward (at least to my Monkey Brain)..anyone else care to chime in?
Yes +1 to everything mschnell said.

The uncertainty is annoying but the industry needed a shake up, but it didn't need it in the shape of Apple with their early built in obsolescence market model.

I'm hoping Intel and AMD can release a socket format (upgradeable) fully RISC CPU system that is cheaper and better than the current x86 legacy hardware to compete with M1 RISC chip family. In the meantime they should be more realistic with the prices of the CPUs (relative price performance), however the pandemic supply and demand has messed everything up, so you could pay through the nose for very unimpressive performance gains.

Businesses will pay for the CPUs they need to keep going. At a consumer level however the options are unappetising.

I'm staying on the fence for as long as possible.
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Old 12-31-2021, 07:33 AM   #6
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After building about 30 Intel based machines for myself and the office where I worked, the DAW machine I built about a year ago is an AMD Ryzen 3700X and I wouldn't trade it.

I got tired of chip level flaws being found that only applied to Intel CPUs and not to AMDs. Here's a vulnerability test I just ran, and all lines that end with "Not Affected" are things that have to be patched on other CPUs, but not my AMD.

/vulnerabilities/itlb_multihit:Not affected
/vulnerabilities/l1tf:Not affected
/vulnerabilities/mds:Not affected
/vulnerabilities/meltdown:Not affected
/vulnerabilities/spec_store_bypass:Mitigation: Speculative Store Bypass disabled
/vulnerabilities/spectre_v1:Mitigation: usercopy/swapgs barriers and pointer sanitization
/vulnerabilities/spectre_v2:Mitigation: Full AMD retpoline, IBPB:, STIBP: RSB filling
/vulnerabilities/srbds:Not affected
/vulnerabilities/tsx_async_abort:Not affected

As for operating systems for REAPER. I moved to Linux back in 2018 and every project since then has been recorded in Linux. I never had to deal with Macs or OSX, but it would probably be my second choice to Windows at this point, and Windows would be my last choice of OS to run REAPER on. I don't like Microsoft for a multitude of reasons.
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Old 12-31-2021, 05:43 PM   #7
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These are "in between" times for computers right now. Also, we hit the point (around 2010) where companies started selling reduced spec machines. Because you no longer needed a $$$$ machine just to log into facebook. Apple started their demise after Jobs died and went hard with disposable planned obsolesce. To the level of soldering in hard drives and serializing anything removable to lock out repairs.

I'd stick with used gear at present. I would honestly replace my 2010 Mac Pro or 2011 Macbook Pro with identical models if something came up right now. I don't need a $6000 custom build with cutting edge graphics for anything. And anything short of that... I already have that Mac Pro. I doubt the new Apple M1 CPUs are going to catch up to high end Intel. Who knows but I'd guess they stay on the social media device trend they're on now. And just screw that level of disposable build, frankly, no matter what the specs are!
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Old 12-31-2021, 06:59 PM   #8
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I'm hoping Intel and AMD can release a socket format (upgradeable) fully RISC CPU system that is cheaper and better than the current x86 legacy hardware to compete with M1 RISC chip family.
It might compete with the actual RISC chip but until they build complete SOCs, you don't get things like a 512 bit memory bus (M1 Max) that allows for 400 Gb/s.

You also get shared System RAM with video RAM. once again, very performant.

So, it's way more than the chip, it's the System.

For the OP, I'm personally waiting for the M1 Mini coming out in the spring, hopefully with the M1 Max.
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Old 01-01-2022, 01:34 AM   #9
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It might compete with the actual RISC chip but until they build complete SOCs, you don't get things like a 512 bit memory bus (M1 Max) that allows for 400 Gb/s.

You also get shared System RAM with video RAM. once again, very performant.

So, it's way more than the chip, it's the System.

For the OP, I'm personally waiting for the M1 Mini coming out in the spring, hopefully with the M1 Max.
I'm aware of that. Having APU and memory integrated in an actually upgradeable solution is feasible, if the will is there. If the business model is still viable.

What I really mean is an upgradeable solution where the the rest of the hardware don't become redundant, unlike an fully integrated soc solution which is designed for built-in obsolescence, like a smartphone, like smart TV components.

A solution that allows a case, PSU, fans, multiple drives and perhaps a new type of motherboard (or perhaps a more simple daughter board) to not become redundant with every upgrade. A replacement slot in upgradeable format that takes advantage of the energy efficiency gains without partly undoing all that with the built-in obsolescence.

We've seen more and more being integrated within CPUs and APUs over the years. I don't suppose it is beyond the wit of man to come up with something between the soc solutions and CPU/APU upgradability.

Whether the will to do that is there is another matter. Intel and AMD must be aware of the fence sitting hurting their business. It's as if Windows 11 and the new secure hardware demands were actually designed in cahoots with the hardware companies in order to push unnecessary upgrades for this very reason! - but I'm being cynical here.

Apparently the current x86 CPU/APUs we all have are already RISC chips at their cores anyway, but these are controlled by some kind of external x86 communication/conversion layer within each CPU.

Last edited by Softsynth; 01-01-2022 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 01-01-2022, 01:37 PM   #10
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For today 12700k
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Old 01-01-2022, 11:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
So, it's way more than the chip, it's the System.
Yep. There are lots of nice power-effective ARM64 chips, but the M1 etc line's performance is due to the tight integration of the hardware parts.

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Old 01-02-2022, 01:50 AM   #12
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For today 12700k
I think the same. 12700k is a high performance per core and a balance between overall performance and heat.

But now only DDR4, because DDR5 is still much more expensive and has the same performance.
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Old 01-02-2022, 05:25 AM   #13
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I think the same. 12700k is a high performance per core and a balance between overall performance and heat.

But now only DDR4, because DDR5 is still much more expensive and has the same performance.
yes, but using DDR4 you lose a lot of the advantages of the new architecture though.

reaper runs great on windows and these new intel CPU's are optimised for windows 11 too which is also an advantage.

I have an AMD 5950x running windows 11 and it's a very powerful machine , set up with reaper and the anticipative FX on all tracks set at 400ms I can run full mixes with AA plugins.

I have a hunch that the new 12700k might have the edge with RT(singe core) performance in Reaper though , so if low latency is needed the combo of DDR5 and the intel chip might be the first choice.

I was going to buy a mac book pro M1 max but I'm on the fence really as it still doesn't seem to be ready for use with all my software. If I was a logic user and used all native plugs a different story.

Also unless you need portability these no reason to use a Laptop over a desk top for a multitude of reasons.


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Old 01-02-2022, 07:54 AM   #14
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yes, but using DDR4 you lose a lot of the advantages of the new architecture though.
.................

so if low latency is needed the combo of DDR5 and the intel chip might be the first choice.

Not now, i think. It's too early to talk about the benefits of the new architecture, because the new DDR5 has a huge price tag, high latencies and, in general, performance is exactly like DDR4. So far, there is not a single weighty dignity.
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Old 01-02-2022, 08:03 AM   #15
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.. So far, there is not a single weighty dignity.
No dignity in buying today!!?
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Old 01-02-2022, 08:31 PM   #16
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No dignity in buying today!!?
"quality" or "worth", maybe. Google translator sometimes suggests words that are not relevant.
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Old 01-02-2022, 11:39 PM   #17
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"quality" or "worth", maybe. Google translator sometimes suggests words that are not relevant.
I didn't realise that was how you were posting in English.
Another way that Google translation can mess up posts is when using speech to text. I often have to go back in and correct weird word change problems.
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Old 01-03-2022, 01:24 PM   #18
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Default Anybody wanna guess what I am doing wrong?

Ok, Then...
My Monkey Brain has turned it's rather limited focus on OPTIMIZING what I have..and NOT buying a new Computer. Maybe in 18 months..we will see.

I love my RME Babyface Pro and running Reaper 5.9, with SSDs of 1 TB each (one for software/VSTs and one for projects.....
But I was looking at new computers because even with this flash equipment...after 20 tracks of wav files and a few VSts (running often thru a UAD-2 Satellite hardware)
....I still get little pops and clicks now and again.
And yes, the buffer is set as big as it can go on the RME (2048).
Anybody wanna guess what I am doing wrong?
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Old 01-03-2022, 08:10 PM   #19
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Anybody wanna guess what I am doing wrong?

Download the LatencyMon https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon and run it. It shows the processes that are causing high system latency, which leads to clicks.


Also, you must have switches off all power saving options: the computer must be in the "Performance" mode.



If you have a video card from Nvidia, in the control panel settings, in the power management settings, set the maximum performance mode.
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Old 01-04-2022, 01:32 PM   #20
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I did download and run it. It cites DPC problems. A quick search i did found no remedy for that. If you know of a remedy..please let me know.


Also, the computer must be in the "Performance" mode.

Done. I always run in HIGH performance mode.


I don't use a NVidia card. I have an internal Intel HD Graphics c530 handling that. Good?
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Old 01-04-2022, 01:54 PM   #21
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What CPU model number and how much memory do you have George?

We shouldn't assume you've already got a capable machine, if your question was born of necessity. It's not a great time to upgrade if you have a decent system. It's a different kettle of fish for someone that has hardware that struggles all the time.
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Old 01-05-2022, 05:18 AM   #22
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I did download and run it. It cites DPC problems. A quick search i did found no remedy for that. If you know of a remedy..please let me know.


Also, the computer must be in the "Performance" mode.

Done. I always run in HIGH performance mode.


I don't use a NVidia card. I have an internal Intel HD Graphics c530 handling that. Good?
which service is causing the DPC problems?



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Old 01-05-2022, 06:27 AM   #23
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I did download and run it. It cites DPC problems. A quick search i did found no remedy for that. If you know of a remedy..please let me know.
After starting the utility, open the Drivers tab and sort the "DPC count" values from highest to lowest. Large ones are problematic. An easy way to tell us information is to simply take a screenshot and publish here.


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I don't use a NVidia card. I have an internal Intel HD Graphics c530 handling that. Good?
Ok!
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Old 01-05-2022, 09:43 AM   #24
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Here’s the pic
Attached won’t work
How do I attach from an iPhone?
Dammit why isn’t this ez
Running our of time
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Old 01-05-2022, 11:40 AM   #25
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You can upload the photo to an image hosting site and provide a link to it. Or, you can put it in Drop Box or Google Drive or similar and provide a link.
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Old 01-05-2022, 12:14 PM   #26
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I apreciate the help to post an image...but its way to complicated, for my needs. I already have 20,000 plus emails...
getting involved with a hosting site
and.or opening my drop box...
Im gonna pass.
Trust me...the DPC is my biggest contributer to latency.
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Old 01-06-2022, 01:02 PM   #27
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I have a hunch that the new 12700k might have the edge with RT(singe core) performance in Reaper though , so if low latency is needed the combo of DDR5 and the intel chip might be the first choice.

I was going to buy a mac book pro M1 max but I'm on the fence really as it still doesn't seem to be ready for use with all my software. If I was a logic user and used all native plugs a different story.

M
Dear norbury brook,

Would you mind clarifying the two paragraphs quoted from your post? I would be interested to know more. Specifically, about single core performance - Does Reaper use single cores to render? In the second paragraph about all your software not being ready. Will the M1 not process Reaper as efficiently as Logic?

The reason I ask is that I am considering the M1 MacBook Pro.
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Old 01-06-2022, 08:30 PM   #28
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Specifically, about single core performance - Does Reaper use single cores to render?
Good question. Single-core performance is what other DAWs need as well. In the recommendations for the processor for FL and Ableton, this is also noted.

I assume that this is due to the first core, on which system processes are also sitting. Therefore, the higher the single-core performance, the more resources remain for the DAW and the less the system's impact on audio perfomance.

But this does not mean that the rest of the cores are not used.
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Old 01-06-2022, 11:18 PM   #29
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Reaper can use a core per track. Hence multi core performance supposedly is more relevant.

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Old 01-14-2022, 01:30 PM   #30
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OK...

Most DAW software can multi thread to some degree or another. reaper historically has always done this very well.

The reason single core speed is important is because DAW's work in real time unlike video editors etc so you cannot parallel the processing in the same way.

So.... your Master bus for example will ONLY be able to use a single core for whatever you throw at it s0, regardless og your 32 core/64 thread Threadripper machine if you overload the Master bus with too many plugins you will get dropouts and crackles etc and Reaper will shoe over 100% RT cpu despite your machine having 63 threads doing very little.

every track in your project though can be parallelised so you can have 64 tracks of heavy hitters running beautifully on your TR machine as long as you don't overload a single core.

So many cores/threads means many tracks of plugins/VI's, high single core speed gives more headroom on single track like the master bus.

Also when record armed , the higher speed cpu will give you better performance than multi thread at low latency as it needs cpu speed here as well.


Regarding the M1 mac, from reading many forums over the past 6 months the Apple silicone and Monterey are just a mess with most things NON Apple at the moment, that's what I meant about software. It's all the 3rd part things that aren't ready yet.

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