Old 09-16-2011, 11:37 AM   #1
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Default Small diaphragm figure-8 condensers

Any of you had the chance to try a few SDC figure-8 mics? There are only a few that I know of, most of them excessively expensive (and german ):

Schoeps CMC 6 + MK 8 ~1600€
Sennsheiser MKH 30 ~1500€ (probably the most "true" figure of eight)
Neumann KM 120 ~1200€

On the cheaper side, I only know of the Oktava MK-012 figure of eight capsule (~220€+MK-012 Pre) or adapter (~100€+the price of two cardioid capsules+MK-012 Pre).

Know of any others? Or have you tried one of these?
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Old 09-16-2011, 12:01 PM   #2
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All I can say is that I have used the Schoeps and they are beyond fantastic Whether or not they are worth the money to you may be a different story... If I did a lot of recording of classical, room sound, and such I would save up for them.
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Old 09-16-2011, 12:32 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by audioguytodd View Post
All I can say is that I have used the Schoeps and they are beyond fantastic Whether or not they are worth the money to you may be a different story... If I did a lot of recording of classical, room sound, and such I would save up for them.
Well, response- and symmetry-wise the sennheiser should be better (but we all know that technically better doesn't necessarily mean subjectively better)

EDIT:
Some extra info I found on the net about the three higher priced ones:
Schoeps: Electrically and acoustically asymmetrical (single plate)
Neumann: Acoustically symmetrical, electrically asymmetrically (double plate, one plate DC-biased)
Sennheiser: Electrically and acoustically symmetrical (double plate, both plates RF-biased)
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Old 09-16-2011, 12:35 PM   #4
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Well, response- and symmetry-wise the sennheiser should be better (but we all know that technically better doesn't necessarily mean subjectively better)
Yeah, all I can say is what I heard. Outstanding.
I have heard that the Oktava's are very good (if not the best) for the money- But I have not used them myself
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Old 09-16-2011, 12:41 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by audioguytodd View Post
I have heard that the Oktava's are very good (if not the best) for the money- But I have not used them myself
I've got a pair of cardioid octavas, so I'd really only need the capsule to start MS-recording and yeah, they're pretty good for the money. dunno about the figure-of-8 though
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Old 09-16-2011, 03:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
Well, response- and symmetry-wise the sennheiser should be better (but we all know that technically better doesn't necessarily mean subjectively better)

EDIT:
Some extra info I found on the net about the three higher priced ones:
Schoeps: Electrically and acoustically asymmetrical (single plate)
Neumann: Acoustically symmetrical, electrically asymmetrically (double plate, one plate DC-biased)
Sennheiser: Electrically and acoustically symmetrical (double plate, both plates RF-biased)
Sounds like you got your info from John Willett.

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Old 09-17-2011, 12:26 AM   #7
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Sounds like you got your info from John Willett.

Fran
Partially, yeah. That the Sennheiser is electrically & acoustically symmetrical is also stated on the Sennheiser website, so that info should be fairly reliable. The Schoeps has an asymmetrical polar response according to the Schoeps website, so it has to be asymmetrical in some way. If acoustically or only electrically, I don't really know. Maybe it also uses two plates, but with different holes. Dunno about the Neumann, but it is more symmetrical than the Schoeps according to the respective manufacturers. So the info probably isn't totally off.
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:00 PM   #8
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Ok... no further replies... anyways... I found a few more:

AKG CK94 + SE-300B ~500€ (This one is extremely interesting as it seems to be a true dipole (unlike the Oktava) and cheap (in comparison))
Shure Beta 181/BI ~450€ (This one seems to be fairly new)

So finally some affordable options. Anyone happen to have tried these?
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:08 PM   #9
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I haven't tried those or these:

- Ambient ATE 208 emesser
- MBHO/Haun MBP 603 (pre) + MBC KA 800 A (capsule)

The Ambient 208 gets talked pretty well of iirc, and MBHO have an excellent reputation. I'll be going the MBHO route most likely when I have the money for an sdc fig-8. Re. MBHO, I think Mr Haun used to work for Beyer and the chief engineer is ex-Schoeps
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:20 PM   #10
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Well, after comparing the specs of the AKG (http://www.coutant.org/blueline/bluespec.pdf) with those of the Shure (http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/tech...n_sheet_ug.pdf), the AKG looks a heluva lot better. Also the AKG seems to be a full system of microphones much like the Collette series.

timlloyd: The Ambient one seems a bit strange... the spec sheet looks horribly cheap... the polar diagram doesn't even line up with itself at 0°/360° (http://www.ambient.de/fileadmin/user...Datenblatt.pdf)! Even the polar diagrams I measured myself at University looked more professional than that... The MB Microphones MBP 603 + MBC KA 800 A seem to be available for ~930€ (body+capsule), couldn't find much in the direction of specs though
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:33 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
timlloyd: The Ambient one seems a bit strange... the spec sheet looks horribly cheap... the polar diagram doesn't even line up with itself at 0°/360° (http://www.ambient.de/fileadmin/user...Datenblatt.pdf)! Even the polar diagrams I measured myself at University looked more professional than that...
I may be misremembering what I've heard of them then! Will have to check bookmarks and then have another look at those specs. -edit- yeah the polar plot doesn't look great :-/

And yikes again re the MBHO specs!? Pretty sure I have seen one of their PDF spec sheets for the KA 800. I'll have a look, and failing that ... email them
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:41 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
I may be misremembering what I've heard of them then! Will have to check bookmarks and then have another look at those specs. -edit- yeah the polar plot doesn't look great :-/

And yikes again re the MBHO specs!? Pretty sure I have seen one of their PDF spec sheets for the KA 800. I'll have a look, and failing that ... email them
The KA 800 isn't listed on their page (anymore) so maybe it is discontinued? Apparently large parts of the AKG blue series are discontinued as well (everything except the capsules and the body) But they appear to be the most affordable option. Too bad the other parts like swivel joints etc. are discontinued
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Old 01-27-2012, 03:13 PM   #13
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A small comparison:

Neumann KM 120
  • 12 mV/Pa Sensitivity
  • 17.5 dBA Self noise
  • 76.5 dBA SNR
  • 140 dB Maximum level (@.5% THD)
  • 1200€

AKG CK 94
  • 10 mV/Pa Sensitivity
  • 22 dBA Self noise
  • 72 dBA SNR
  • 132 dB Maximum level (@1% THD)
  • 500€
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Old 01-27-2012, 04:03 PM   #14
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That's interesting. (I do wish everyone would just publish proper ITU-R 468/CCIR noise spec though)

I have not found any specs for the MBHO - very elusive, apart from a wiki page that I don't trust :-/ I'll email them, as I'm rather interested in it, particularly in light of the AKG - was not aware of that mic before.

According to John Willet here, the 208 Emesser is made for Ambient by MBHO, and apparently it's also a proper single-diaphragm design! Perhaps that's why their's seems to be discontinued ...

So I'll ask them about that

-edit- forgot to comment, the LF response of the Ambient isn't ideal though - it's been attenuated on purpose :-/

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Old 01-27-2012, 09:00 PM   #15
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Don't forget the Berry C3.....
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Old 01-28-2012, 12:55 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
I do wish everyone would just publish proper ITU-R 468/CCIR noise spec though
Neumann has those but AKG doesn't so it wouldn't really have been comparable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
Don't forget the Berry C3.....
Berry C3 = Behringer C-3? If yes, how is that in any way related to this discussion?!
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Old 01-28-2012, 03:57 AM   #17
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so it wouldn't really have been comparable.
I know, that's why everyone should use it

I'll post info when I get a reply from MBHO.
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:13 AM   #18
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I'll post info when I get a reply from MBHO.
Got a reply, KA-800 isn't discontinued it's just not on the website (no reason given). I expect they will put up the spec sheet soon
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:00 AM   #19
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Something I just noticed about the AKG: it is prepolarized (read: electret). Not necessarily a problem, but probably the reason why it is so much more affordable.
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Old 02-08-2012, 03:09 PM   #20
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Still no spec sheet for the KA-800 :-/

Also heard of a new fig-8 sdc - SE Electronics & Rupert Neve RN17. There's no spec sheet for their fig-8 cap yet either - I emailed SE about it last week, and they had only recently received the caps from the factory - specs on the way in another week or two.

1 Body + cardioid cap is ~1k. Other caps sold separately, but have not seen a price yet. It will have to be rather impressive in order to be competition for the other sdc fig-8s, but it seems pretty promising.
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Old 02-08-2012, 03:42 PM   #21
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Did you read this thread by chance, especially the last page?
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:23 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
Still no spec sheet for the KA-800 :-/

Also heard of a new fig-8 sdc - SE Electronics & Rupert Neve RN17. There's no spec sheet for their fig-8 cap yet either - I emailed SE about it last week, and they had only recently received the caps from the factory - specs on the way in another week or two.

1 Body + cardioid cap is ~1k. Other caps sold separately, but have not seen a price yet. It will have to be rather impressive in order to be competition for the other sdc fig-8s, but it seems pretty promising.
the graph on the top right of the second page in http://www.seelectronics.com/downloa...io_germany.pdf belongs to the figure of eight. they also measured a sensitivity of 2.3 mV/Pa (yes, that is very low) and an SNR of 67.8 dB (they don't say if weighted or not). I am very surprised by the insane amount of low end on the fig-8. very unusual.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
Did you read this thread by chance, especially the last page?
I have now. The answer given by Jörg Wuttke is mostly about the low-end rolloff (which I am perfectly fine with, since a true dipole microphone must behave like that unless pre-equalized or damped to a point where SNR becomes a real problem).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jörg Wuttke
Some people noticed that the sound on axis differs from the sound received at 180°.

The reason:
All these people tested their microphone with an earphone. Listening with an earphone to your own voice means that you get two signals. The one that travels directly through the head and the electrically transmitted sound. The second is reversed in polarity speaking on the rear of the dipole. This effect can be avoided if the phase switch on the amplifier is reversed if the microphone is turned by 180°
This part is very unsatisfactory, as the phase inversion would mostly affect the low end and midrange (very little high-frequency components of the voice travel through the head directly) and is therefore not related to the asymmetrical high-end response (according to the polar diagrams published by Schoeps! if those aren't true, why haven't they corrected them by now?).
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:35 PM   #24
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the graph on the top right of the second page in http://www.seelectronics.com/downloa...io_germany.pdf belongs to the figure of eight. they also measured a sensitivity of 2.3 mV/Pa (yes, that is very low) and an SNR of 67.8 dB (they don't say if weighted or not). I am very surprised by the insane amount of low end on the fig-8. very unusual.
Ah, if only I could read German I may g-translate some bits. Yes, it does look quite unusual - am looking forward to seeing their spec sheet, SE said they would send it when ready (if they remember). What was the overall opinion of the RN17 by the reviewer(s)?

Thanks Ollie, I have read bits of that thread - need to read more of it though.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:56 PM   #25
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Ah, if only I could read German I may g-translate some bits. Yes, it does look quite unusual - am looking forward to seeing their spec sheet, SE said they would send it when ready (if they remember). What was the overall opinion of the RN17 by the reviewer(s)?

Thanks Ollie, I have read bits of that thread - need to read more of it though.
Overall the review seems positive (but don't magazine reviews always seem positive?) They didn't like the low output level (they say it is more comparable with dynamic microphones than other condensers). The construction of the shockmount seems to be very good (although they do mention that it has to be very solid because the mics weight quite a bit more than most SDCs due to the large transformer). And they say the transformer gives a slightly "British" colo(u)r, whatever that may mean.
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:17 PM   #26
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Overall the review seems positive (but don't magazine reviews always seem positive?) They didn't like the low output level (they say it is more comparable with dynamic microphones than other condensers). The construction of the shockmount seems to be very good (although they do mention that it has to be very solid because the mics weight quite a bit more than most SDCs due to the large transformer). And they say the transformer gives a slightly "British" colo(u)r, whatever that may mean.
hmm ... low output is off putting. And I'm a bit skeptical about that transformer comment I wonder if they would have said the same if it didn't have the big "R" slapped on the side of it. To be quite honest the trafo seems rather gimmicky for an sdc. Evidently they're not going for a super-accurate mic with the fig-8 cap, which makes it unsuitable for what I would want that type of mic for ...
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:19 PM   #27
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the graph on the top right of the second page in http://www.seelectronics.com/downloa...io_germany.pdf belongs to the figure of eight. they also measured a sensitivity of 2.3 mV/Pa (yes, that is very low) and an SNR of 67.8 dB (they don't say if weighted or not). I am very surprised by the insane amount of low end on the fig-8. very unusual.
V interesting; I found this
http://www.seelectronics.com/se-rn17-rupert-neve-mic
Which mentions the Fig8 but only has specs for the Card. Eg Noise 18dB A-weight, 23dB Din (CCIR. 6mV/Pa)
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Old 02-08-2012, 06:42 PM   #28
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Any of you had the chance to try a few SDC figure-8 mics? There are only a few that I know of, most of them excessively expensive (and german ):

Schoeps CMC 6 + MK 8 ~1600€
Sennsheiser MKH 30 ~1500€ (probably the most "true" figure of eight)
Neumann KM 120 ~1200€

On the cheaper side, I only know of the Oktava MK-012 figure of eight capsule (~220€+MK-012 Pre) or adapter (~100€+the price of two cardioid capsules+MK-012 Pre).

Know of any others? Or have you tried one of these?
Sorry I have not in the SDC arena. I'm getting ready to order a couple of Royer R-121s (ribbons of course) if I continue to talk myself into it. I have a few LDCs AT4050, OLD CAD 300 etc but no SDC fig 8s.
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Old 02-08-2012, 06:44 PM   #29
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Berry C3 = Behringer C-3? If yes, how is that in any way related to this discussion?!
Yes, I meant the Behringer C3, and it is a 16mm dual diaphragm mic...is 16mm not considered small?
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:11 AM   #30
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Yes, I meant the Behringer C3, and it is a 16mm dual diaphragm mic...is 16mm not considered small?
Not exactly big but not really small either. I guess that makes it an MDC Dual diaphragm isn't really what I'm looking for though. I'm much more interested in true fig-8 mics. Plus the pseudo-LDC body makes it a bit impractical.
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:15 AM   #31
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hmm ... low output is off putting. And I'm a bit skeptical about that transformer comment I wonder if they would have said the same if it didn't have the big "R" slapped on the side of it. To be quite honest the trafo seems rather gimmicky for an sdc. Evidently they're not going for a super-accurate mic with the fig-8 cap, which makes it unsuitable for what I would want that type of mic for ...
Yes, the whole transformer thing is quite silly. I'd also prefer something transparent.
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Old 02-09-2012, 02:20 AM   #32
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You could ask Dieter Schöpf if he would build one – no joke. Or maybe he's got a prototype already? These mics are killer.
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Old 02-09-2012, 02:28 AM   #33
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Ah, he's the guy who makes the Plattenhall plate reverb ... really want one of those.
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