Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > Recording Technologies and Techniques

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-24-2012, 12:35 PM   #41
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

I positioned the traps a bit differently, here's what I got:









I'll be building more traps, that's for sure..

The link is a cover song from our (my new band) first rehearsal, showing how the drums sound. Everything goes to Reaper, bass and guitars are from Guitar Rig, reverbs are ValhallaRoom, compressor DC8C (Klanghelm) and eq is j1000 PQ33. It's a first "real" time we are practising so there's some mistakes here and there. I'm the singer/solo gt..

http://minus.com/mbjWLmd32J/

Drums are recorded with mics on OH (2x Behringer C-2), snare (Audix D3) and kick (t-bone BD-300)
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands

Last edited by Finnish; 04-24-2012 at 12:55 PM.
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 02:03 PM   #42
planetnine
Human being with feelings
 
planetnine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,585
Default

I'd go listening for those nulls at 56 Hz and 177 Hz. Play them as sinewaves through your monitors and see if they are standing wave nodes or a result of monitoring deficiency (you could EQ them out a little if they were).

I'm presuming here you are miking from your monitoring position?

How does it sound now? do you feel more confident in what you are hearing?


>
planetnine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 02:24 PM   #43
RJHollins
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,355
Default

Hi Finnish,

Question ... with your corner traps ...

Do you have anything [insulation] behind those corner panels ???

2. Your ceiling cloud. Is it soft backed, or hard backed ??

3. As for further trappings, remember, the areas were the wall meets the ceiling are candidates for 'corner' trapping too.

From your posted graphs, I still see areas where sections of the response are 'hanging' around the room LONGER [decay time] than the bulk of the rest of the response.

But first, to know better what/how you have your current treatment.
RJHollins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 03:27 PM   #44
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
I'd go listening for those nulls at 56 Hz and 177 Hz. Play them as sinewaves through your monitors and see if they are standing wave nodes or a result of monitoring deficiency (you could EQ them out a little if they were).

I'm presuming here you are miking from your monitoring position?

How does it sound now? do you feel more confident in what you are hearing?
>
Yes, I already feel more confident what I'm hearing..! Still, that 56hz null prevents me from hearing the "oomph" in kick and I can hear it in my living room stereo (with a sub), it's a bit too loud. So, that's a real problem, I want to fix it in the room, not in the mix.. I'm gonna do that sweeping with those freqs and see what's it all about.

And yes, I'm miking from monitoring position
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 03:30 PM   #45
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
Hi Finnish,

Question ... with your corner traps ...

Do you have anything [insulation] behind those corner panels ???

2. Your ceiling cloud. Is it soft backed, or hard backed ??

3. As for further trappings, remember, the areas were the wall meets the ceiling are candidates for 'corner' trapping too.

From your posted graphs, I still see areas where sections of the response are 'hanging' around the room LONGER [decay time] than the bulk of the rest of the response.

But first, to know better what/how you have your current treatment.
1. No, the corners are "bare", no insulation behind corner panels. So that's a problem and needs a correction. More rockwool, I'd say?

2. Ceiling cloud is soft backed.

3. I'll get some more rockwool and make more traps or trapping area in the wall/ceiling-areas!
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 07:59 PM   #46
RJHollins
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnish View Post
1. No, the corners are "bare", no insulation behind corner panels. So that's a problem and needs a correction. More rockwool, I'd say?

2. Ceiling cloud is soft backed.

3. I'll get some more rockwool and make more traps or trapping area in the wall/ceiling-areas!
Hi Finnish,

1. Yea ... the corner bass traps need stuff in their to convert sound energy into heat ... and this is where alot of energy migrates.

Not sure if you know ... but look up the term 'Chunky Corner Traps'. There are probably a 1000 links, but ... This is the concept that I used for my room [as spelled out by my designer].

Basically, I took 2'x4'x 2" KNAUF panels [similar to Corning 703]. Cut them into 2'x2' squares ... THEN I cut the squares diagonally into wedges [triangle]. These fit right into the 4 corners of my room. They where stacked, flat, from the floor to the ceiling. I did put a 'mid-way' support in there to help stabilize and prevent compression. I also had used 2"x2" lumber as top & bottom corner support/braces that allowed me to attack a 'fabric frame' to cover the corners.

That's the way I did it ... you can also 'straddle' the corner with 2" or 4" thick piece, but they want the area behind filled with standard insulation. ) since I didn't do it this way, I not sure HOW this loose insulation was to be held in there ... maybe as batts? ... i don't know.

2. Ceiling cloud.

I have 7 clouds in my Control Room, 3 of which are 'hard backed'. These are at the front of the room across the mix position. They are also ANGLED (at about 15 degrees. The remaining 4 clouds are soft back, and are located from the middle to the back of the room. ALL clouds are suspended away from the drywall ceiling.

Of course ... THIS treatment I did was according to the specific design for my room ... every room [needs] are different AS are the circumstance you have to work.

If I may suggest. There is a web site dedicated to nothing but studio design and treatment for the DIY'ers. This is NOT a spoon fed type of site. You have to do you homework ... and it is comprehensive. The site is free ... so is the advice ... but the resources contained is vast. Everyone has a thread 'diary' .... drawings and pictures are mandatory.
If you really want to learn, and do the work, there is no other place like it. [I have my thread there too].

let me know ... I'll post a link if it is wanted and OK here.

Sincerely.
RJHollins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 10:07 PM   #47
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 24,012
Default

Quote:
I have 7 clouds in my Control Room
What size is your room?
__________________
If it requires a null test to find it, it is by definition minuscule.
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2012, 12:21 AM   #48
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

RJHollins,

Yeah, I'd appreciate that link!
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2012, 07:29 AM   #49
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Ok, more material..



I get ten 15cm thick panels from those, I'll be looking those wall/ceiling points
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2012, 08:11 AM   #50
SafeandSound
Human being with feelings
 
SafeandSound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: London UK
Posts: 125
Default

Considering most untreated rooms can have up to +/-25dB you are heading in the right direction fast. In my room I have 6 x floor to ceiling super chunks i.e. complete rock wool infills in corners (not triangular but rectangular) and mid way and a 2 x horizontal super chunks at front and rear of room. Floor to wall straddles either side of speakers and foam ceiling to wall (more like lower mid range traps) The amount of treatment to approach "flat" is colossal especially when working with Rockwool like material. You need a lot of depth to get anywhere close to having a real impact, especially when you consider the wavelengths at 50Hz and below.

But wow when you do it's worth it.

cheers

SafeandSound Mastering

Last edited by SafeandSound; 10-08-2013 at 12:53 PM.
SafeandSound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2012, 08:48 AM   #51
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Yeah, I guess the amount of trapping with rockwool is colossal but I don't care, I want a decent room..!
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 12:18 PM   #52
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Yayyy, made five more traps. I hope I'm able (alone) to attach those to ceilings tomorrow.

__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 01:24 PM   #53
RJHollins
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,355
Default

Hi Finnish,

Sorry for the delay ... had some gigs to take care on.

The Studio Design web site that I used is:

John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

http://www.johnlsayers.com/

If interested ... its' a free register. ALSO, be sure to fill in your user profile,
especially your location. AND read the intro page carefully.

Then create your own personal thread in the appropriate section. Now it may take time to get a response ... the guys work for free and are very busy.

Another thing ... the main graphics program used there is called SketchUP, a free app from Google.

They have a 'search' function ... and believe me, it is loaded with info. PLUS you can get a feel for what other's have done, and how they supplied info/pics for the designers to be able to help. [they like pix ... NO PIX, it DIDN'T happen]

Very important ... these guys KNOW how to interpret REW files, and combined with ALL the data/ pix/ diagrams, can provide 'customized' solutions to YOUR particular needs and situation.

I have my build diary there. I was EXTREMELY fortunate to have 'Gulfo' [Glenn Stanton] design my Control Room during a time when he was heavy on the site. Currently he's been busy flying around the world, so poles in only now and then. The main active 'Guru' is Soundman2020 [Stuart], and xSpace [Brian]. These guys know there stuff, and will supply any laboratory documents and testing data you could ever ask for!

Special guest visit from time to time, like, Rod Gervais [get his book!], Andre, John Bryant, and even the Man himself, John Sayer.

It seems like you are very serious, and DIY capable in getting your room right for audio work. I think you may find the site invaluable. I visit ever day or so JUST to keep learning from all the other builds from around the world.

Sorry for the long post.

Hope this is helpful

Sincerely.
RJHollins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2012, 12:02 PM   #54
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
I'd go listening for those nulls at 56 Hz and 177 Hz. Play them as sinewaves through your monitors and see if they are standing wave nodes or a result of monitoring deficiency (you could EQ them out a little if they were).

I'm presuming here you are miking from your monitoring position?

How does it sound now? do you feel more confident in what you are hearing? >
Ok, played 56hz and 177hz as sinewaves. 56hz is a bass trapping issue, corners sound HUGE.. So, I need to fill my corners, that's not a problem.

But, 177hz is different issue. It rings in corners but the main issue is in the mix position. When I sit, it's "ok", doesn't sound huge. But when I stand up the ringing is really there. It also gets stronger when I listen to it next to my cloud which is above mixing position. It's also quite strong near table where my monitors are, actually where my keyboard is. There are two traps behind me in the back wall, the sound is quite strong near the back trap (ear to trap) but not behind the trap.

What to do???
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2012, 02:24 PM   #55
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Here's a video showing how the room reacts to 177hz sinewave:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN8jL...ature=youtu.be
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands

Last edited by Finnish; 04-27-2012 at 03:05 PM.
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2012, 03:59 PM   #56
planetnine
Human being with feelings
 
planetnine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,585
Default

177Hz seems quite dependent on height. Your traps should be absorbing a frequency like that reasonably easily (120mm, yes?), so that might be why it dies behind them.

There is a cluster of Tangential and Oblique modes about 180Hz and above based on the dimensions I have for your room, but this is if the theoretical is actually relevant to how your room is responding.
Ceilings sometimes don't reflect at the boundary you expect (depending on construction), and you do have a bunch of traps already in there doing a lot of work.

Maybe try more traps on the ceiling (or floor!) -try if the level pattern towards the ceiling is symmetrical with the floor proximity. Clusters will combine modes and give odd patterns of loud and quiet zones at the freq(s) they occur. I'd pile lots of traps temporarily on the floor to see what happens

56Hz could be your 1-1-0, which if my understanding is correct, will give you strong wall corners, and a node at (quiet) the centre of the room (floor to ceiling). This could cause a mild dip at listening position -but again we are relying on the room to match it's model -if it is, the vertical corner traps are helping to dampen it down.

More! Thicker! More! Lots!!

>
planetnine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 01:48 AM   #57
RJHollins
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,355
Default

Hi Finnish,

I too am 'suspicious' of the floor to ceiling mode.

But let also say, I am NO expert on this aspect of acoustical treatment !

With the design of my room ... which is a complete new science/design from what I studied back in the '70s [there, we had Hidley room as our models].

So when it came time to build my room, it was a rather large leap of faith to enter the 'RFZ' design. Again, this was all done through the site I post above.

When it came time to treat my ceiling, 'Gulfo' had specified 3, 2'x4'x4" hard backed clouds mounted toward the front of the room. These were made 'similar' to my 4" 2'x4' broadband absorbers EXCEPT that they were mounted with 1 sheet of 3/4" MDF and 3/4" plywood that were 'liquid nailed' and screwed together ... THEN, 4" of rigid insulation attached via an open frame concept that I used for all my panels.

These 3 clouds are suspended at a 15 degree angle down [to the front of the room]. The other clouds are also suspended, but NOT sloped.

From my REW shots, we had to increase the angle in order to help break the floor to ceiling standing wave. The result was fantastic, to say the least.
The critical part was these guys understanding what REW results were saying.
I'm still learning about HOW to read all the different data plots that REW provides ... while at the same time, studying my new room ... AND trying to do some audio work along the way.

Bottom line is ... there is so much effort that goes into doing this, and I would hate to suggest something that would NOT be beneficial. I defer to the experts on Sayer's site.

On 'other' treatment ... I don't recall seeing from your photos, as to how you placed your wall treatment. Did you mount your broadband panels OFF the wall surface ??? They should be, as it greatly improves the effectiveness of the panels.
Also ... they point on the wall where treatment went. Did you measure out WHERE the 1st reflection point is ? or use the 'mirror' technique to locate this ??? Alot of this is covered on Ethan's site.

Hey, just trying to help ... but I don't want to see you doing double work [although it can be a good learning exercise

Sincerely.
RJHollins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 07:43 AM   #58
planetnine
Human being with feelings
 
planetnine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,585
Default

If there are some keyboard stands and/or lighting stands to hand, and it seems that Finnish has a stock of traps, try moving them round the side-walls at mid-level, leaning them across the floor-wall boudaries or even hoist them up on the wall-ceiling boundary. Try standing them off the surface and try "doubling them up".

For the lowest frequencies, 6, 8, 12-inch thick or more might be needed to absorb the energy (depth and density as opposed to area. Move the traps, do a bunch of sweeps with the mic in different positions (to find the nodes/antinodes of modes not clear from the mix position). Luckily, the worst modes in a room tend to be the first two or three axial for each dimension and they are the most predictable and closest to the theoretical model for rectangular rooms.


Readings around your room will help you read what is going on, but flat response at your listening position is your aim. When you've "got there" and it's quite flat, a series of readings in a small volume around that point will find any common anomalies left. If you want to, then, and only then should you apply EQ to smooth the last bit out.


>
planetnine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 10:36 AM   #59
RJHollins
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,355
Default

All we've seen are the freq response and the waterfall charts from REW.

There are other plots that it provides that seem to be very key in identifying issues.

One could go crazy moving things around [which must be done to a point, but there are tools/formulas that assist.

Although the FR and Waterfall are useful, it seems the 'other' charts are what the 'designers' focus in on. I'm still learning about those.
RJHollins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 10:58 AM   #60
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
All we've seen are the freq response and the waterfall charts from REW.

There are other plots that it provides that seem to be very key in identifying issues.

One could go crazy moving things around [which must be done to a point, but there are tools/formulas that assist.

Although the FR and Waterfall are useful, it seems the 'other' charts are what the 'designers' focus in on. I'm still learning about those.
I was trying to build a corner bass trap today but my idea of its design was a bit stupid... Not strong enough to move around etc.

I'd like to know what are important things REW shows, other than FR and waterfall. I guess it's "higher mathematics"..
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 01:36 PM   #61
planetnine
Human being with feelings
 
planetnine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,585
Default

John Mulcahy, the athor of REW is steadily adding stuf to REW to increase it's remit. I sort of follow a lot of it, but I have to search around and ask questions for quite a bit.

I only really use it for finding room resonances and then chasing where they are to neutralise them, so Response graph, Room Simulation graph, Waterfall and (my favourite) the Spectrogram are the graphs I use to chase them, along with Mode Calculations where they apply.

I've asked John to add mode frequency lines similar to ModeCalc that can be added as overlays to the graphs. Be nice to see Axial, Tangential and Oblique frequencies added to the graphs to cross-relate the theoretical modes and the actual responses. The theory doesn't always tally with the measurements, esp in non simple rectangular rooms, but it would be useful to check the stronger Axial and Tangential modes, and the clustering on the rooms that do conform.

RT60 is useful to make sure you have an even reverberation value across the spectrum when you've finished. It's very easy, esp with small rooms, to kill the top and mid ambience dead with the amount of broadband trapping needed. This is why greater depth on some absorbers is recommended as opposed to area (more bite on the LF without increasing the MF and HF absorption). On larger rooms, diffusers are used to stop coherent reflections but still allow ambience. An extremely dead room will encourage you to add more reverberation than you might want.

The raw Impulse data is a bit beyond me. My experience of such things is starting with the impulse data and getting equipment and software to produce frequency response curves and decay plots from them, which is what REW does anyway.


>
planetnine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 03:18 PM   #62
planetnine
Human being with feelings
 
planetnine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,585
Default

Something I forgot to ask, with your room scan that produced those two nulls, how far was the mic from the back wall?

At any given frequency there is a point a quarter of its wavelength from the wall where the reflection will try to cancel the main sound. At that point the sound and reflection are antiphase. This also happens at 3, 5, 7, etc times that distance. Either of these frequencies could have given you quarter-wavelength interference nulls that are unconnected with the modes created by the room's enclosed dimensions.

I have the figures for those Frequencies if you want to give me the distance from mic to rear wall...



This is a screengrab from a spreadsheet graph, showing Quarter-λ (wavelength) constructive (C) and destructive (D) frequencies for a particular listening position, alongside axial, tangential and oblique modes for that room. They're not generally as significant as the main axial modes (LF), but can become so above 100Hz-ish. This is very dependent on the room and the surface absorption coefficients, your treatment and other things within the room.

Sorry about the very basic graph. I will get the QuickBASIC out and write some proper code with proper graphs one day, just in case I do lots more of these.

If you let me know the rear-wall distance, I can plot you something out...



>

Last edited by planetnine; 04-29-2012 at 05:34 AM.
planetnine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2012, 11:04 AM   #63
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Had a busy day making bass traps!







I ran out of time, neet to cover the fronts with fabric. But I'm almost there, one corner gets a trap from floor to ceiling. Need to make traps for two other corners also, maybe tuestay or wednesday.
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2012, 11:59 AM   #64
RJHollins
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,355
Default

Portable design ???
RJHollins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2012, 12:05 PM   #65
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
Portable design ???
Yeah, portable, I just like the idea of moving 'em around if necessary, be it another corner etc
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2012, 03:55 PM   #66
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: City
Posts: 10,317
Default

Nice work. I just stacked all my leftovers in an open, narrow Ikea shelf and wraped that in fabric .
__________________
Dialogue/FX Editor & Re-Recording Mixer
(Video)Using Latch Preview
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2012, 04:00 PM   #67
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Nice work. I just stacked all my leftovers in an open, narrow Ikea shelf and wraped that in fabric .
Bwahahaa.. Some sort of an "easy approach" also crossed my mind, but I really like that woodwork part, I have to work outside in a bare area but spring is warm and sun is shining. And when it's done by my own hands, somehow it feels better.. Plus portable design is a must for me, if I need to move things or space or whatever I can easily move traps.
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2012, 10:08 AM   #68
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

One corner ready!



__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2012, 02:19 PM   #69
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: City
Posts: 10,317
Default

The "laser show" fabric is a brace choice certainly. Well, it would be for me.
__________________
Dialogue/FX Editor & Re-Recording Mixer
(Video)Using Latch Preview
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2012, 03:47 PM   #70
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
The "laser show" fabric is a brace choice certainly. Well, it would be for me.
Bwahahhaa. Cheapest I could find..
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 01:16 PM   #71
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

One corner trapped from floor to ceiling, one corner (my bed is in it) has a trap on the corner, one corner (behind left speaker) has a big and deep trap (120cm hight) and one panel (56,5cm x 110cm x 15cm) above it. One corner has a panel (56,5cm x 110cm x 15cm) hanging from the ceiling, it needs a deep trap below it. Here are the results:



__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 04:12 PM   #72
RJHollins
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,355
Default

It's getting better

Still need more trapping, as you look at the waterfall ... those 'fingers' streaming off the mountains, that is 'ringing' overhang. These are the type of decay factors that muddy up a playback ... and it is the room causing that, but it will affect sonic judgment. [BTW ... if the thought occurred ... these canNOT be fix via 'house' eq.
RJHollins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 04:25 PM   #73
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 24,012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnish View Post
One corner trapped from floor to ceiling, one corner (my bed is in it) has a trap on the corner, one corner (behind left speaker) has a big and deep trap (120cm hight) and one panel (56,5cm x 110cm x 15cm) above it. One corner has a panel (56,5cm x 110cm x 15cm) hanging from the ceiling, it needs a deep trap below it. Here are the results:



Sorry I didn't read the entire thread.... Did you match those problem areas with the corresponding modes in a mode calculator? That will give clues about you where to place the material with less time wasted placing it where it might not be having any affect whatsoever the problem frequency. Piling on more and more in the wrong location probably won't fix anything once you are down to this fine tuning.
__________________
If it requires a null test to find it, it is by definition minuscule.
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 04:39 PM   #74
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Sorry I didn't read the entire thread.... Did you match those problem areas with the corresponding modes in a mode calculator? That will give clues about you where to place the material with less time wasted placing it where it might not be having any affect whatsoever the problem frequency. Piling on more and more in the wrong location probably won't fix anything once you are down to this fine tuning.
I wanted to trap the corners first, those are ringing as hell. After that I'll dig more into fine tuning
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 05:01 PM   #75
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 24,012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnish View Post
I wanted to trap the corners first, those are ringing as hell. After that I'll dig more into fine tuning
OK, no problem. I thought you were past the major stuff. I'm doing my room (today actually) so that's why I brought it up. How do you know its a corner ringing vs something else? Genuine serious curiosity.

Earlier today when I started I shot the room untreated with REW and ran a mode calculator. I then cross referenced the two and placed an L, W, or H above each mode to its corresponding dimension. I of course did two corners first but since then I have been placing where the graph tells me to based on the modes, tweaking, etc. I'm just curious if I'm going down the wrong path, it seems to be working but dunno. I'm down mostly to this final 137 hz bump that is still too high and reflections off of my 27" monitors that is making swiss cheese out of every thing between 4-8k I know its the desk/monitors because when I covered them with towels it disappears. Do they make fuzzy desks and fuzzy video monitors?
__________________
If it requires a null test to find it, it is by definition minuscule.
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 11:35 PM   #76
RJHollins
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,355
Default

you raise good point Karbo ...

From all that I've read ... there are, indeed, common treatment strategies that seem to apply to nearly every control room build, UNLESS !! you are:
1. Soffit mounting monitors,

2. You've built your inner walls as 'Inside-Out walls' as developed by John Sayer [I posted his incredibly valuable site earlier] THERE you can read, see, HUNDREDS of builds from across the world, spanning every conceivable size, range, budget, etc.

3. BASED on the 'intended' design goal ... [my Control room is in the RFZ design], there ARE specifics that will be common ...

So ... if your room is basically a symmetrical, rectangle layout. You have positioned the 'STARTING' listening/ measuring position [approx. 38% distance from front wall], I see most rooms [unsoffitted] using 4 main corner traps. WHY ... because these areas provide 4 major surfaces coming together. They just LOVE to amplify low frequencies. These corners are 1st choice locations for massive, chunky corner traps.

Treatment of walls may be handle with broadband absorbers. HERE, there is a CRITICAL location [can be found via formula - I think on Whiners site, OR via the MIRROR technique] These are the 1st reflection points derived from the 'opposite side' monitor. The 1st reflect points ALSO occur at the ceiling. Combined with that, the 'cloud' design can also incorporate a 'boundary interference or redirect' via a 'Hard Backed' design.

In MOST small control rooms, trapping is heavily needed. The TRICK is to NOT KILL the room at the same time. That is why JS's forum is so useful. The TIME, MONEY, and EXPERIMENTATION is greatly reduced ... along with doing things that SEEMED like a good idea, but acoustics, and treatment can sometimes NOT seem logical [let alone the barrage of myths, snake oil, and mis-information that permeates.

As you mentioned ... using REW in 'REAL-TIME' mode can indeed provide critical 'real time' info as to where, what, and how's it doing.

The issue I SEE, is that I'm rather reluctant to offer definitive 'this is how' ... because, I'm STILL learning about this NEW WAY of designing rooms. My formal education was back in the '70s under the Hidley design 'school'. I have spent the past year+ learning as my room was designed and built.
I have NOT even gotten to the 'tweaking' stage yet ... I TOO have an old CRT monitor [a massive boat anchor] sitting on a table with several cinder blocks to get the height up] ... I'm still researching for new slim line monitors ... even still ... it is a joy to work in this room. [I say this in ALL humility ... serious.

Anyway ... I head over to JS forum ... much important things yet to learn/ understand.
RJHollins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2012, 07:45 AM   #77
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 24,012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
you raise good point Karbo ...

As you mentioned ... using REW in 'REAL-TIME' mode can indeed provide critical 'real time' info as to where, what, and how's it doing.
My mistake, didn't mean to imply I used it in real-time mode. I just shot a pre-treated waterfall and compared the modes in the waterfall with the modes in the mode calculator so I would know which dimension (w/h/l) was "most likely" to be responsible for each issue in the waterfall plot. Gives me a good starting point, I wanted to know where the issues were first. Yea, its a friggin rectangle.

Since I don't want to polute Finnish's thread, see here for the progress (or lack of) I have made so far: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...410#post957410
__________________
If it requires a null test to find it, it is by definition minuscule.

Last edited by karbomusic; 05-05-2012 at 07:58 AM.
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 02:21 PM   #78
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Three big bass traps possibly ready tomorrow, anxiously waiting for results!

__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:57 AM   #79
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Finished up another one today, installed!







Two more traps/one corner to go!
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 01:17 PM   #80
Finnish
Human being with feelings
 
Finnish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Posts: 886
Default

Results at the moment:





More to come tomorrow!
__________________
REGISTERED USER
My music, studio and bands
Finnish is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.