Old 12-17-2009, 12:33 PM   #41
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YUP!

Of course I can think of only a handful of others.
As I said, "rare"!

Oh, it's funny that nowadays it's not uncomon to track a guitar three, four times or even more to get it sounding big.
Guys like the one you mentioned often sounded bigger tracked once, lol. IMO anyway.

Jim P.





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Sometimes I get the feeling today's (metal) compositions are little more that tightly defined rhythm tracks for precisely that reason. Easier to double, triple, quadruple and get the "wall of doom guitars" sound when there's very little legato technique going on.

Seems every such track like this I hear, does sound huge... but there's this obligatory "chugga-chugga-chugga-chugga-silent-chugga-chugga-chugga-chugga-silent" in most examples.

Best guess is it's in some famous founding track of the genre.

(I'm basically from the pre-metallica era, though recently heard the '89 Metallica Seattle DVD and realized Metallica's live sound on Master of Puppets was the same sound I'd been shooting for with my old analog rig, LOL! Basically always had ignored Metallica for some reason. Anyway, Metallica for me was always the dividing line between "old metal" and "new metal". A shift from "woe with me", "satanic", "LA" and/or "hair" metal to "aggressive-I-breaka-you-face" metal. LOL!)
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:36 PM   #42
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I think it'd be a safe bet to say that many of the tracks off at least the first V.H. album are a single guitar. A few overdubs here and there. I stink at trivia but sounds like it to me.
As good as ed is supposed to be, I don't think he could double track himself on some of those, lol.


Jim P.




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Yes, EVH's tone on the first two albums (like for a lot of guitar players I guess) is what I always point at when I say, "Yeah but not everyone with big tone doubles"...

To be honest, the "brown sound" came fairly easily out of my old analog rig. Been much hard to get close with amp sims for me. Though I seen guys do it. Generally better players and different pickups/guitars is what it came down too. E flat tuning is a big part of it too.

Hate to say it, because I don't really want to model my tunes after someone else, but EVH's tone, that allowed for easy sliding between rhythm and lead parts is pretty much the playing response/freedom I've been after with sims. Have yet to find it.

With real amps, I've even had it come out of cheap little Marshall MG15DFX's with the right guitar.

One thing the real amps seem to permit, that sims don't do as well (for me) is the setup where you can cover a lot of sounds just by using the volume and tone knobs on the guitar.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:56 PM   #43
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Yes, EVH's tone on the first two albums (like for a lot of guitar players I guess) is what I always point at when I say, "Yeah but not everyone with big tone doubles"...

To be honest, the "brown sound" came fairly easily out of my old analog rig. Been much hard to get close with amp sims for me. Though I seen guys do it. Generally better players and different pickups/guitars is what it came down too. E flat tuning is a big part of it too.

Hate to say it, because I don't really want to model my tunes after someone else, but EVH's tone, that allowed for easy sliding between rhythm and lead parts is pretty much the playing response/freedom I've been after with sims. Have yet to find it.

With real amps, I've even had it come out of cheap little Marshall MG15DFX's with the right guitar.

One thing the real amps seem to permit, that sims don't do as well (for me) is the setup where you can cover a lot of sounds just by using the volume and tone knobs on the guitar.
As for sims, well....I'll confess to liking one boss brown model I have. I have no idea the name. By the time a bit of delay or whatever is added, it's not bad. And I was tube amp snob for many-many years. I have to admit, things have changed. I can also do a little re-amping if I still feel something is missing - you know?
Also good to keep a dry track handy.

One thing about eddie's tone that has absolutely nothing to do with gear....or his ability maybe.....is his unorthodox picking technique.
I've heard folks play him note-for-note and still not sound the same.
I always say, tone starts at the pick, lol. It's true!
When he plays holding pick with thumb and middle finger - he's bouncing off something. I can hear it -(other finger/fingernail?)- giving his sound a harmonic/percussive vibe? I'm having trouble with the words. Plinking instead of plucking? lol. Technical term, funny, lol.
That's also a good reason why it'd be hard to double-up there I suppose. lol.

Jim P.






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Last edited by toyhouse; 12-17-2009 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:10 PM   #44
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Seems every such track like this I hear, does sound huge... but there's this obligatory "chugga-chugga-chugga-chugga-silent-chugga-chugga-chugga-chugga-silent" in most examples.
Thanks for afternoon chuckle.
Perhaps the chugga's as you put it are a subconscious response to hip hop? lol.
Well, what I mean is that in recent years, music has slowly lost it's melody content in favor of rhythm? Is rhythm alone music? That's for another thread, lol.
Off to do some chugga's now. lol.
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:21 AM   #45
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Dual Tone

Use 1 track, duplicate it, and process it differently - ie: different amp, delay, reverb etc.

The sound is frikin' amazing......

Here are some examples:

Line 6 Dual tone: http://line6.com/podx3live/tour.html

BenVesco detailed settings:
http://www.benvesco.com/blog/tones/2...-demos-part-1/

BenVesco fav guitar sounds etc. in guitar world etc.
http://www.benvesco.com/blog/line-6-amp-modelers/
(scoll 1/2 way down to Pod Patches)

1 guitar, 1 take, processed two different ways = oh yeaaahh.. nice
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:51 AM   #46
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I always say, tone starts at the pick, lol. It's true!
It starts in your mind.
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:34 AM   #47
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It starts in your mind.
You might be right.

That would explain why there's so much bad sound out there.
Too many folks who're tone-deaf! lol. Sorry. Couldn't help it.

Sincerely,
Autotune.



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Last edited by toyhouse; 12-18-2009 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:38 PM   #48
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+1 for Voxengo Stereo Touch - I use it a lot
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Old 12-19-2009, 12:44 AM   #49
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It starts in your mind.
In some cases... might start a couple of feet lower. LOL!
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:28 AM   #50
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Pick technique effect on guitar tone and doubling morphed into sentimental metaphors.
How'd that happen? lol.
Again, just kidding.
It's late here for me. Not thinking clearly.
Been up nineteen hours today.
Off to bed.
Cheers!
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Old 12-19-2009, 03:00 AM   #51
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+1 for Voxengo Stereo Touch - I use it a lot
Hey Janoosh - stopped by your site for a listen....
Some rockin' and unique tunes!

Przelam strach: probably my fav - unique production.
To w nas jest sila: great tune, great bass sound and guitars
Czekam: another rocker - great sound

Is that Polish language?

I enjoyed the listen!

- - - -
Pong delay - I don't use it often, but man it sure can 'fatten/double' up a lead guitar with a long delay time of like 700ms.
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:29 AM   #52
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In some cases... might start a couple of feet lower. LOL!
Or higher...
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Old 12-19-2009, 07:47 AM   #53
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Or higher...
Hmm... maybe.
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:52 AM   #54
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Or higher...
Sigh.....

Sorry, at 52....that's all I got.
Surely didn't mean to offend?
All was in jest.

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Old 12-19-2009, 09:03 AM   #55
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Sigh.....

Sorry, at 52....that's all I got.

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I'm totally lost at this point, LOL!

I figured lower meant "crotch" and "higher" meant "Divine Inspiration"...

What'd I miss?

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Old 12-19-2009, 09:06 AM   #56
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One thing about eddie's tone that has absolutely nothing to do with gear....or his ability maybe.....is his unorthodox picking technique.
I've heard folks play him note-for-note and still not sound the same.
I always say, tone starts at the pick, lol. It's true!
When he plays holding pick with thumb and middle finger - he's bouncing off something. I can hear it -(other finger/fingernail?)- giving his sound a harmonic/percussive vibe? I'm having trouble with the words. Plinking instead of plucking? lol. Technical term, funny, lol.
That's also a good reason why it'd be hard to double-up there I suppose. lol.

Jim P.
.
I'll have to listen close, but I know there *are* times when I will only expose a tiny bit of the pick and a good part of the string strike is the back of the nail on my index finger. It is a slightly different sound.

Generally it goes along with runs where I might be doing pinch harmonics... then wanting a 2 or 3 string chord.

When I'm playing a lot, that nail gets a flat spot like clipping it across with a pair of scissors, LOL!

P.S. Maybe this effect at time 2:46, rapid back and forth picking?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_lwo...eature=related

One other possibility. I've seen vids where he palms the pick and finger picks some chords using 2 or 3 fingers and a thumb. E.g. spots in Panama:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrsKY...eature=related

Last edited by flmason; 12-19-2009 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:25 AM   #57
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I'll have to listen close, but I know there *are* times when I will only expose a tiny bit of the pick and a good part of the string strike is the back of the nail on my index finger. It is a slightly different sound.

Generally it goes along with runs where I might be doing pinch harmonics... then wanting a 2 or 3 string chord.

When I'm playing a lot, that nail gets a flat spot like clipping it across with a pair of scissors, LOL!

P.S. Maybe this effect at time 2:46, rapid back and forth picking?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_lwo...eature=related
I'm still tired running on only five hours sleep so I very possibly missed innuendos in forum as well.
The "higher up" post I took to mean - his tone is in his mouth. hahahaaha.
Pretty funny really.
The lower one down.......I got that one, hahahahaha.

I saw that this morning after no sleep, (terrible flu), and just sighed....lol. Not enough drugs I guess, lol.

My whole point in this was that there's a kind of metalic pecussive sound he often has. Many-many years ago, (70's?), I remember reading billy gibbons was a great user of pinch harmonics. At that time I was self taught and didn't really know terms so I went about pinching the string, lol.
While that didn't work, over time I learned that "guitar tone" really did come from the pick hand. I can almost generate a wah-wah sound without one.
I wish someone had told me that starting out. I probably sounded preachy?
I don't know what's go on. I'll be glad when this damn flu is over!

Jim P.





.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:01 PM   #58
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for doubling, I've tried many things:

---Favorite way: take a segment from another part of the song+paste to earlier part... it works good, but usually needs surgical precision, sometimes lots of splicing to align transients.

---Another way: Duplicate track, slightly delay one track with some EQ and modulation. Usually it doesn't work, but is quick and easy to try.

---Another way: Make an Aux bus and send the track's signal to it. Put a pitch/detune plugin on the bus, fully wet, and detune -6 to -12 cents or so. If its a stereo plugin, you can make one side +6 cents, other side -6 cents. This is a pretty common vocal trick. Experiment with EQ, mod, delay, and pan. Sometimes its just right.

---Another way: duplicate the track. Put a reverb on one track, fully wet. Turn the decay all the way down as far as it will go. Turn the room size all the way down. experiment with decay between 6-30ms, and maybe mess with room size and maybe a pre-delay if you want. Pan the track, put some EQ, maybe some chorus/modulation. Its a cool trick, but it doesn't work as good as a real 2nd mic (in a good placement), IMO.

Once you have a doubled track + stereo panned, you can mess with mid-side widening. This is real easy to overdo though.

Its a whole lot less trouble to nail the 2nd guitar take during tracking. whew!

Last edited by thinking allowed; 12-20-2009 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 12-21-2009, 01:33 AM   #59
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I think it'd be a safe bet to say that many of the tracks off at least the first V.H. album are a single guitar. A few overdubs here and there. I stink at trivia but sounds like it to me.
As good as ed is supposed to be, I don't think he could double track himself on some of those, lol.
.
I don't know at all how this album was tracked, but using two mic's can make things wider, bigger, and 'kind of' doubled sounding. A common method is a 2nd mic like 6 feet away, but the room/placement has to be *absolutely* right or it sounds like bad 70's.(nothing against bad 70's!)

A different 2 mic setup:

Try two SM57's (or similar) about an inch from the edge of the speaker, 90 degrees to the cabinet. Put the mics as close to each other as possible. They should look identical, same distance from the speaker. Listen and see if you like it.

Then take one mic and try aiming it 30-45 degrees (or whatever) off-axis toward the center of the speaker, again keeping the mic's diaphram as close to other one as possible to avoid phase trouble. Listen. Does it get more highs the more you aim it toward the center? Sound any better than just one mic? If no, then re-adjust or keep them in identical formation, using one track for 'trickery'.

Also, ribbon mics have LONG been loved for their sound on guitar amps. A big overlooked reason is that they are 'figure 8' patterns and not cardioid. On one side they pickup the direct sound, and the other side, they get the sound of the air that has already left the amp. By using two mics close together you can sort of simulate this, making your own polar pattern. You can keep these tracks panned together, or spread them.

Last edited by thinking allowed; 12-21-2009 at 02:01 AM.
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:07 AM   #60
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Maybe this is useful:

http://www.kvraudio.com/get/2264.html

It is unbelievably flexible and versatile.




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Old 12-31-2009, 04:05 AM   #61
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I'm still tired running on only five hours sleep so I very possibly missed innuendos in forum as well.
The "higher up" post I took to mean - his tone is in his mouth. hahahaaha.
Pretty funny really.
The lower one down.......I got that one, hahahahaha.

I saw that this morning after no sleep, (terrible flu), and just sighed....lol. Not enough drugs I guess, lol.

My whole point in this was that there's a kind of metalic pecussive sound he often has. Many-many years ago, (70's?), I remember reading billy gibbons was a great user of pinch harmonics. At that time I was self taught and didn't really know terms so I went about pinching the string, lol.
While that didn't work, over time I learned that "guitar tone" really did come from the pick hand. I can almost generate a wah-wah sound without one.
I wish someone had told me that starting out. I probably sounded preachy?
I don't know what's go on. I'll be glad when this damn flu is over!

Jim P.





.
No doubt picking technique, etc. have a big influence. Even so, I still come down in the camp of "tone is 70% equipment / 30% player" when it comes to distortion guitar.

Equipment that empowers the techniques makes it *much* easier to get the results. If you have to fight with a given technique, often you just stop using it, at least if it doesn't sound right.

Case in point. I A/B'ed a Fender Starcaster (cheap strat type), a middle priced Ibanez and a Jackson Dinky one day through a 30 watt Marshall Combo. Just the cheapo MG30DFX.

All 3 guitars actually played rather well. Good action, intonation good, etc. They all sounded different. There was a mix of single coil, middle of the road humbuckers... and the standout on the Dinky... a Duncan JB.

For just typical rhythm playing any one of them would've been fine.

But... for "tricks"... i.e the "Van Halen Stuff", fretboard gymnastics... that Duncan JB stood head and shoulders above. Tap harmonics, pinch harmonics, two handed hammer on/offs... all were like butter... while some of those techniques you had to really fight to get out of say the Starcaster.

So I tend to rate the equipment higher because, for me, I find it crucial to have the playing response I expect and want in order to be truly fluid and not fighting with the thing.

Sort of like, "yeah, you *can* road race with a stock '71 Chevy Nova, but it's a lot easier with a sports car."

That having been said, I have been known to win impromptu cross town races (30 years ago) with a '56 BelAir with a straight six in it, against the Firebirds and Camaros, LOL!

Of course that's a little different. That has as much to do with the competition as the car.
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:42 AM   #62
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That Schwa Plug sounds really good.

I listened to Dimi's Demo (Dimi's Demo, Ha) And it sounds as good in mono as it does in stereo.
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Old 12-31-2009, 08:53 AM   #63
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No doubt picking technique, etc. have a big influence. Even so, I still come down in the camp of "tone is 70% equipment / 30% player" when it comes to distortion guitar.

Equipment that empowers the techniques makes it *much* easier to get the results. If you have to fight with a given technique, often you just stop using it, at least if it doesn't sound right.

Case in point. I A/B'ed a Fender Starcaster (cheap strat type), a middle priced Ibanez and a Jackson Dinky one day through a 30 watt Marshall Combo. Just the cheapo MG30DFX.

All 3 guitars actually played rather well. Good action, intonation good, etc. They all sounded different. There was a mix of single coil, middle of the road humbuckers... and the standout on the Dinky... a Duncan JB.

For just typical rhythm playing any one of them would've been fine.

But... for "tricks"... i.e the "Van Halen Stuff", fretboard gymnastics... that Duncan JB stood head and shoulders above. Tap harmonics, pinch harmonics, two handed hammer on/offs... all were like butter... while some of those techniques you had to really fight to get out of say the Starcaster.

So I tend to rate the equipment higher because, for me, I find it crucial to have the playing response I expect and want in order to be truly fluid and not fighting with the thing.

Sort of like, "yeah, you *can* road race with a stock '71 Chevy Nova, but it's a lot easier with a sports car."

That having been said, I have been known to win impromptu cross town races (30 years ago) with a '56 BelAir with a straight six in it, against the Firebirds and Camaros, LOL!

Of course that's a little different. That has as much to do with the competition as the car.

True about guitar tech related to the axe gain etc and getting pinch harmonics.
Active pickups help even more for certain things.
What kind of pinch harmonics are we talking about? Zakk Wyld? lol.
I'm not sure you'd get those with an aged paf. With actives, those tend to jump right out. Yes, gear helps. Depends on what you're doing.

My whole point bringing up the eddie technique was to point out that certain styles aren't always easily doubled. Yet, some of the guitar work of the 80's that was single-tracked still sounded HUGE. I'm mean, even during the rhythm sections that were still single tracked. Perhaps not huge in the way current metal rhythm tracks are being done but still big. I'm sure it was a combination of things.

Whenever I hear those done right - it drives me insane. lol. I'd give anything for a time machine to go back and spy on them to see what they were doing. lol.

BTW, while still drifting off-topic and discussing harmonics for a second, that "trademark" Zakk harmonic drives me nuts! hahahaha. It's OK once in a blue moon but every third or fourth note?....
On another side note, wonder what it was like mixing that material? Whoa.....
I wonder if they cheat and just copy and paste those notes in somehow? I would, lol. Well... they do begin to all sound the same???
Let the drummer trigger that note from a pad, lol.
They sound so thick - maybe doubled as well?

Sorry for drifting off-topic in this thread folks.

On topic, if only one guitar track available, I use the doubled tracks/one shifted a bit ahead/behind or with the copied parts trick. Depends on material. Also use doubling plugs sometimes.
Last but not least..... sometimes kiss works and a single guitar alone is a nice change from current trends.

Cleaver folks here. I love this stuff!



Jim P.











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Last edited by toyhouse; 12-31-2009 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 12-31-2009, 10:27 AM   #64
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On another side note, wonder what it was like mixing that material? Whoa.....
I wonder if they cheat and just copy and paste those notes in somehow?
I know for a fact that Children of Bodom have done that, and probably a ton of other bands. You just record an extra track or to specifically for crazy harmonics, whammy dives, etc to keep them clean-sounding and not fuck up the riff before/after.
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:42 AM   #65
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Maybe this is useful:

http://www.kvraudio.com/get/2264.html

It is unbelievably flexible and versatile.
Download doesn't seem to work.
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:31 PM   #66
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The best way to achieve that nice guitar doubling sound
For me is to record two guitar tracks panned hard left and hard
Right,then EQ one side a little different then the other i like to cut a
few db at 800hz and boost 3 db at 3K,then on the guitar track panned hard
Right insert the JSelay/Time_Adjustment FX ,set the delay amount to 25ms
Wet mix to 5db dry mix to -120.0 and additional delay amount to 0
And you will have a nice huge fat guitar sound,i also find myself quad tracking instead of just doubling! also for some extra beef i will create another track Guitar_FX and insert the crow preamp emulator vst into that track,and then add sends from the guitar tracks to the Guitar_FX track
really adds saturation and warmth! it can be downloaded here

http://www.mcrow.net/Preamp%20Emulator%20VST.htm
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Old 01-02-2010, 11:25 PM   #67
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Download doesn't seem to work.
That's a shame, really, 'cos this plug is somewhat unique.

Hopefully this link works: http://bicycle-for-slugs.org

BTW: Oatmeal is a very nice analog synth.





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Old 01-03-2010, 12:38 AM   #68
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If the instrument part has repetitions in it, then I cut the second track together from different places of the first track.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this way works best.

the ADT plugin is a very specific effect that colours the part a lot. works good if you're going for a late-era beatles vocal sound.
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:27 PM   #69
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My whole point bringing up the eddie technique was to point out that certain styles aren't always easily doubled. Yet, some of the guitar work of the 80's that was single-tracked still sounded HUGE. I'm mean, even during the rhythm sections that were still single tracked. Perhaps not huge in the way current metal rhythm tracks are being done but still big. I'm sure it was a combination of things.

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Yes, this is my who axe to grind/grudge, LOL!

Everyone will say "double it to sound huge".

Makes sense, want a wall of guitars... record one, LOL!

Double tracking, quad tracking, etc. clearly sound huge. Seems to always work... but it kills spontaneity in composing. Soon as I start thinking... "I have to do this precisely enough to double it..." I start counting and the like and the vibe dies. Sometimes I find myself losing the pick because I end up clenching it.

But then there's that EVH example out there. Great tone... one pass... (Some other examples out there too, say Billy Gibbons at times, some of the vituoso types, Rush, etc.)

So my specific axe to grind as it were is, "How to get the EVH level of tone and apparently playing flexibility (much like my old analog rig)... but out of amp sims???)

Ain't found it yet, LOL!
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:42 PM   #70
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But then there's that EVH example out there. Great tone... one pass... (Some other examples out there too, say Billy Gibbons at times, some of the vituoso types, Rush, etc.)
In cases like this it is because some players really are "that" good. So good that the line between what part of the tone is coming from the human and what is from a piece of gear becomes very blurred. That doesn't mean someone can't be just as good and double track, but there are players who can sound absolutely huge in tonal terms all by themselves. Such as the term "He can fill a big space" is talking about the same thing. Sometimes good is measured by speed, or accuracy or technique or creativity but there is an equal measurement of tone/groove/feel talent that is just a real and can be even more elusive. Not taking away from the subject, just commenting on those who achieve such and that it really happens.

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Old 01-05-2010, 12:34 AM   #71
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Sorry for long post.
Both of you folks are saying what I was trying to say.
The players that can/could do that are rare.
They aren't just talented, but on another plane if that makes sense.
Even so, they are playing and using their "gear" as an extension of that talent.
When all those things come together then the term "fill the space" really means something.
And it's true, it's not always a technical or speed ability at all.
I always remind myself that when I can't play something. Makes me feel better, lol.

Anyway....
It's that intangible thing that often just can't be put into words. A good producer will know it when they hear it too. And know how to exploit it! And track just once if that's all that's needed. Why cover up something special like that? That'd be like pouring ketchup on steak!

As for the amp sims, I was an tube amp snob forever and still am. I still own old tube gear and repair/mod my stuff. But I've gotta say, in the last couple years things have changed. I'm playing through models probably 80 percent of the time or more now. When recording, if I use a model and I find it sterile sounding, I'll re-amp it through a half-stack when possible.
The new models though are getting to be quite impressive.
They're getting to be hard to tell from the real thing.
And no expensive tubes to replace, lol. Oh yeah, a lot easier on the back!
Jim P.



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Old 01-07-2010, 02:17 AM   #72
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What happens in real doubling?

* Same basic sound/voice added once again
* with slightly different, randomly varying timing
* with slightly different, randomly varying pitch

Antares is promising to do that in a VST. But what I heared it sounded "strange" to me. Dont know if it was just that user, though...

The problem with modulated delay time (aka Chorus): the modulation waveform (say sine) is easily audible. What really would be needed is to randomly change pitch/delay whenever a new tone is sung or played.

I can imagine to use a gate in REAPER, which has to trigger the delay time and pitch change... but how could this be made random?!?
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Old 01-07-2010, 03:28 AM   #73
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delay time and pitch change... but how could this be made random?!?
Cannot this be doen by Reapers parameter modulation? It can be set to random...
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Old 01-07-2010, 07:59 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stupeT View Post
What happens in real doubling?

* Same basic sound/voice added once again
* with slightly different, randomly varying timing
* with slightly different, randomly varying pitch

Antares is promising to do that in a VST. But what I heared it sounded "strange" to me. Dont know if it was just that user, though...

The problem with modulated delay time (aka Chorus): the modulation waveform (say sine) is easily audible. What really would be needed is to randomly change pitch/delay whenever a new tone is sung or played.

I can imagine to use a gate in REAPER, which has to trigger the delay time and pitch change... but how could this be made random?!?
sorry to be a stick in the mud but why do we need a plug for this specific application? Why not just record 2 tracks? For me, the actual act of recording is the funnest part.

It reminds me of a cartoon I saw once of a kid with an electric guitar running thru racks and racks of equipment that says "Look dad, I can make it sound like an acoustic guitar"... And the dad is sitting next to him.... with an acoustic guitar.
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:43 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stupeT View Post
What happens in real doubling?

* Same basic sound/voice added once again
* with slightly different, randomly varying timing
* with slightly different, randomly varying pitch

Antares is promising to do that in a VST. But what I heared it sounded "strange" to me. Dont know if it was just that user, though...

The problem with modulated delay time (aka Chorus): the modulation waveform (say sine) is easily audible. What really would be needed is to randomly change pitch/delay whenever a new tone is sung or played.
The Antares thing is really good, as well as the thingy I linked to (although it's slightly different, 'cos it has up to 24 choruses or so (dunno exactly right now) that menipulate each other, thus some kind of randomness emerges thats somewhat chaotic), but nothing goes above "Real doubling" instead of "Fake doubling".

Quote:
Originally Posted by stupeT View Post
I can imagine to use a gate in REAPER, which has to trigger the delay time and pitch change... but how could this be made random?!?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
Cannot this be doen by Reapers parameter modulation? It can be set to random...
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
sorry to be a stick in the mud but why do we need a plug for this specific application? Why not just record 2 tracks? For me, the actual act of recording is the funnest part.
...because the producer goes: "We haven't got time for this... This record has to go on xmas sale!... Time is money!!" regrettably a common attitude nowadays.

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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
It reminds me of a cartoon I saw once of a kid with an electric guitar running thru racks and racks of equipment that says "Look dad, I can make it sound like an acoustic guitar"... And the dad is sitting next to him.... with an acoustic guitar.
LOL..




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Old 01-07-2010, 10:04 AM   #76
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I went back to an old song file last night that I'd done last year which only had one guitar track.

Certain projects like that are sometimes good canadates for doubling.

However, sometimes there's a sound that can't easily be reproduced etc. Tone-wise?

Also, (and more importantly), if you were the one who did the performance.....maybe you were in a head-place that you just can't do again? It does happen.
Or you don't want to learn the material over again?

I tried the cut-n-paste method doubling.....got frustrated and gave up.
Maybe I'll give it another go and just play another track, lol.
It'd certainly be a lot easier.



Jim P.





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Old 01-07-2010, 10:52 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toyhouse View Post
I went back to an old song file last night that I'd done last year which only had one guitar track.

Certain projects like that are sometimes good canadates for doubling.

However, sometimes there's a sound that can't easily be reproduced etc. Tone-wise?

Also, (and more importantly), if you were the one who did the performance.....maybe you were in a head-place that you just can't do again? It does happen.
Or you don't want to learn the material over again?

I tried the cut-n-paste method doubling.....got frustrated and gave up.
Maybe I'll give it another go and just play another track, lol.
It'd certainly be a lot easier.

Jim P.

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yeah, I know there are valid cases. Just sayin'
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Old 01-07-2010, 11:35 AM   #78
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yeah, I know there are valid cases. Just sayin'
Truth is, I often just don't want to have to learn the part over again, even my stuff. LOL.


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Old 01-07-2010, 11:14 PM   #79
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sorry to be a stick in the mud but why do we need a plug for this specific application? Why not just record 2 tracks? For me, the actual act of recording is the funnest part.
Sure. This is true when I am dealing with my own guitar or voice overdubs.

But what if this other singer/player already went went back to this other continent? Or you have to remix something where the performers are simply unavailable?

And then again: I also try to solve technical problems just for fun. I am an engineer
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Old 01-08-2010, 12:01 AM   #80
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What happens in real doubling?

* Same basic sound/voice added once again
* with slightly different, randomly varying timing
* with slightly different, randomly varying pitch
the problem is, there's going to be lots of correlation between the original sound and the "doubled" sound (at the waveform level). the problem with this is that the human ear is REALLY sensitive to sounds that are delayed/pitched like that (your brain uses that sort of information to work out spatial information, like the size of a room, the distance of a sound source to your ear etc).

that DOESN'T happen with a separate recording of a different part (the waveforms will usually be completely different).
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