Old 11-13-2018, 03:23 PM   #41
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It seems like you would have to follow a pretty strict track setup and workflow, and it would be pretty tricky for someone like me
I suppose that is exactly why Geoff started the CSI project.

You should do such discussions in his thread over there.

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Old 11-13-2018, 03:43 PM   #42
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Ok, sorry, trying my hardest here on the basics, but coming up confused.

In general, I want to record from the mic pre outputs on the stage snake right to individual tracks on reaper.

The ONLY think I want going back to the X32 is the stereo output from reaper, I dont want anything else from the console to appear on the control room outs. Basically I want to use this as an audio interface for now and nothing else till I have it down. Is that possible?
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Old 11-13-2018, 03:52 PM   #43
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Ok, sorry, trying my hardest here on the basics, but coming up confused.

In general, I want to record from the mic pre outputs on the stage snake right to individual tracks on reaper.

The ONLY think I want going back to the X32 is the stereo output from reaper, I dont want anything else from the console to appear on the control room outs. Basically I want to use this as an audio interface for now and nothing else till I have it down. Is that possible?
Yeah, you might want to set up a (at least half) normalized input section, perhaps a default project where Track 1 records X32 channel 1 input etc., probably make things easier.
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Old 11-13-2018, 04:17 PM   #44
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I got that, the inputs are working fine, its routing the single stereo output that's tricky...If I want them to all go back and act like a normal mixer, no problem, but I just want this to act like a regular old interface
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Old 11-13-2018, 11:52 PM   #45
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IMHO, if you don't want to use the X(M)32 for live mixing at all, it's questionable if it makes sense to place the bulky thing at the location of the audio cables. In such an application, a remote controlled hardware without controls (a rack mixer or just an A/D D/A box or a set of those) with a digital interface (AES50 ("Snake") or (better) Dante), and using a dedicated Control Surface device in the control room to control Reaper (which could be used as a live mixer if required *) ) or the rack mixer, would be more appropriate.

If you do want an X(M)32, using it as a Reaper Control Surface would make sense, but supposedly asks for carrying the thing around, which might or might not be a problem.

*) -> you do know how nicely Reaper works in "Live" applications

-Michael

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Old 11-14-2018, 10:26 AM   #46
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Turns out many of the people (including a lot of the behringer groups) were totally wrong and it works fine as an actual audio interface.

If I did want to use something else, is there anything else that can use the DL32 as input and output?
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Old 11-14-2018, 11:34 AM   #47
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As AES50 is a standard I do suppose there are.

Klark Teknik DN9650 with Dante, Klark Teknik DN9630 AES50 to USB 2.0 Converter, ...

-Michael

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Old 11-14-2018, 12:19 PM   #48
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I wonder what the latency is like on the 9630. Also I'd need some control room facilities, like for control room output and stuff, I suppose i could run 50 feet of cable back from the snake its connected to to the control room if need be, or maybe theres some AES50 pass through stuff to another snake or something, but this doesnt appear to have an asio driver

We're living in exciting times, the entire interface concept is changing drastically!
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Old 11-14-2018, 11:51 PM   #49
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Those dante things are crazy crazy money! But it looks like there should be some easy, not too crazy money way to record the AES50 stuff like the DL32
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Old 11-15-2018, 06:15 AM   #50
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Without decently knowing the circumstances, if not Dante, my suggestion is using DL32s as A/D-D/A, DN9630 AES50 to USB 2.0 Converter, and Reaper as a mixer, supposedly with the help of a set of Control Surface devices. Regarding Control surface devices ask Geoff after watching his video. This should be a very flexible and extensible solution.

I am not sure how local monitoring is done as e.g. ASIO only supports a single audio device (here the DN9630). You can use a Behringer P16 passing threugh the AES50 line.

-Michael

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Old 11-15-2018, 07:03 AM   #51
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Those dante things are crazy crazy money! But it looks like there should be some easy, not too crazy money way to record the AES50 stuff like the DL32
That's because of Audinate's licensing and testing model.

You'd expect AVB to be cheaper, but it's not really. Dante has reached volume. AVB is goin' slow.
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:25 AM   #52
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Without decently knowing the circumstances, if not Dante, my suggestion is using DL32s as A/D-D/A, DN9630 AES50 to USB 2.0 Converter, and Reaper as a mixer, supposedly with the help of a set of Control Surface devices. Regarding Control surface devices ask Geoff after watching his video. This should be a very flexible and extensible solution.

I am not sure how local monitoring is done as e.g. ASIO only supports a single audio device (here the DN9630). You can use a Behringer P16 passing threugh the AES50 line.

-Michael
Somehow you need a low latency way to get in and out, something needs an ASIO driver. I know the Dante stuff can, but these other devices don't even mention it
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:32 AM   #53
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That's because of Audinate's licensing and testing model.

You'd expect AVB to be cheaper, but it's not really. Dante has reached volume. AVB is goin' slow.
Any idea on an asio capable device that could get a DL32 in and out of the computer that doesnt cost 3 or 4 fortunes?
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Old 11-15-2018, 11:18 AM   #54
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Somehow you need a low latency way to get in and out, something needs an ASIO driver. I know the Dante stuff can, but these other devices don't even mention it
The ASIO driver would only need to come with the DN9630. In a description I read that it comes with "Windows drivers" ( -> http://www.musictribe.com/Categories...DN9630/p/P0BRT ). I am rather sure that this will be ASIO. And as AES50 is done for low latency, "The device will appear like a normal soundcard in your audio application." it would be silly if the USB ASIO driver would be inappropriately slow.

-Michael

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Old 11-15-2018, 11:31 AM   #55
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The ASIO driver would only need to come with the DN9630. In a description I read that it comes with "Windows drivers" ( -> http://www.musictribe.com/Categories...DN9630/p/P0BRT ). I am rather sure that this will be ASIO. And as AES50 is done for low latency, ". The device will appear like a normal soundcard in your audio application " it would be silly if the USB ASIO driver would be inappropriately slow.

-Michael
Thats what I mean, since it doesnt mention it in the manual, I'm a bit scared to take it on faith. If however, it turns out that that thing comes with the same driver family as the X32? WHOA!!!! For barely over 1300 bucks you'd have 32 analog in and 16 analog out paired with an S32
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Old 11-15-2018, 11:34 AM   #56
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Hmm, installed it and an ASIO driver showed up....Still its pretty disturbing that they don't talk about it.
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Old 11-15-2018, 11:40 AM   #57
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I wonder if you can control the mic pre gains and routing and stuff with this...I dont see an editing app like on the X32 stuff
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Old 11-15-2018, 01:36 PM   #58
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Hmm, installed it and an ASIO driver showed up....Still its pretty disturbing that they don't talk about it.
They seem to take it for granted that in Windows a sound device is ASIO,

-Michael
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Old 11-15-2018, 01:39 PM   #59
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The DL32 should provide such utility in some form, unless it features local controls.
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Old 11-15-2018, 03:09 PM   #60
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From the M32/X32, you control the DL32 from the X32 app or the mixer itself, I dont see anything about a DL32 control app or any way to access it aside from AES50
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Old 11-15-2018, 03:49 PM   #61
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The X32 is exceptionally cheap ($1600) these days. If you want Midas branded Preamps you can use a D32 and then an X32 just as an AES50 to USB converter and D32 setup device. Moreover you can use the X32 as a live mixer and as a Control surface device for Reaper (once Geoff get the OSC feature of his CSI Reaper extension ready).

You would not use Behringer analog Audio hardware in this setup - only for your Studio Monitor boxes directly driven by the X32. But here you of course could add some high class stereo AES/EBU D/A converter, as the X32 does feature an AES/EBU output. (OK, I suppose for talkback a Behringer MIC input will do )

-Michael

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Old 11-16-2018, 11:21 PM   #62
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You give up selecting it as the computer's USB audio interface but you will still be able to record its 32 channels - and even more.

There are two possibilities:
  1. (best option) X32 is fitted with Dante expansion card. In this case, you don't select the X32 (USB) as the computer's audio interface. Instead, you install Dante Virtual Soundcard (DVS) on one or more computers (mac or pc alike) and select DVS as the computer's ASIO audio interface. As stated before, DVS provides up to 64 audio networking in/outs on any given computer via its internal NIC port. This means that you can record double the amount of the usual 32 audio channels coming from a single X32. In other words: You may record all those 32 channels of one X32 plus another 32 channels of whatever else is present on the network (like another 32 Dante audio channels of a second X32 equipped with Dante expansion or any other Dante source).
  1. X32 is NOT fitted with a Dante expansion card but is connected to a computer via USB. In this case, you can install "Dante Via" on that computer. This would enable the computer to make up to 32 audio in/outs of the USB-connected X32 available on a Dante network. Dante Via can aggregate and propagate audio in/outs of connected USB and Firewire hardware interfaces into a Dante network. In this case, however, we could not speak of a real Dante network because there's no other Dante peer available on the network yet. You could add another computer running DVS to have such a peer. However, this would still not integrate the second X32 unless either it is fitted with a Dante expansion card or is connected to another computer which in turn is running Dante Via just like the first computer.

I hope I'm expressing myself clearly enough so that you can follow
You may PM me if you like.

.

You need a special Dante Ethernet card for this right? You cant just go over your regular ethernet and router right?
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Old 11-17-2018, 03:20 AM   #63
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As the Dante card goes into the X32 it of course is "special".

Using one or more "regular" switches in a commonly used network might be dangerous, as normal network traffic can hamper the Dante audio stream. That is why "managed" switches that offer "QOT" (= "Quality of Service" = preference for dedicated data streams) are recommended.

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Old 11-17-2018, 08:22 AM   #64
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You need a special Dante Ethernet card for this right? You cant just go over your regular ethernet and router right?
Behringer X-Dante expansion card fitted into the X32 offers 32 in/outs, allowing to spit out up to 32 desired audio signals from the console (single channels, busses, auxes, main stereo, etc.) into a Dante network and to pick up up to 32 channels of audio of whatever audio is floating on the Dante network (another Dante-fied console, one or more computers running DVS/Dante Via, a computer fitted with a Dante PCIe accelerator card, Dante stageboxes, Dante personal monitoring systems, or any other Dante device).

It's recommended to use manageable gigaqbit switches to make sure that the audio network can perform optimally and that Dante traffic gets prioritized (QoS). 100Mbit switches might actually work but cannot be considered 100% "drop-out-safe" / "glitch-free" for professional environments. With a simple manageable 1G switch won't have to fear a single glitch, ever.

Yamaha, Audinate and Focusrite provide documents on how to set up switches on their web pages. It's easily done in a few minutes without being an IT nerd. I'd not call those manageable switches "special". They are commonly used in offices and other locations for simple data and internet networking and they are not really expensive. I'm using 2 Cisco SG 200-08 in my studio and another two of them on location. I bought two of them second hand for around 80 EUR (normal price 120 EUR).

I'm not sure what you mean by writing "You cant just go over your regular ethernet and router right?". Go over it with what? You surely can use existing ethernet cabling and switches (if cat 5 or better, 1G and manageable) for Dante. That's exactly what I'm doing. I have my internet router connected to one switch of my Dante network and I'm surfing the internet on the same computer where the Dante PCIe card is installed (main Reaper computer) and I can watch youtube videos while running heavy audio mixes in Reaper in the background. No issues at all. I can also use my internet router as a Dante switch and route audio over it (to another room outside my studio). I tested this and used my living room (where the router lives) as a live room. No issues. My internet router is 1G capable also.

What you can't do is connecting non-Dante stuff's RJ45 ports with Dante stuff's RJ45 ports or plug all those devices into the same switch (manageable or not). AES50 simply has no networking capabilities. It's point-to-point. It only happens to use the same physical RJ45 connectors for some reason but this doesn't provide compatability between the actual data streams.

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Old 11-17-2018, 10:47 AM   #65
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What I mean is, on the computer end. Do you need to buy a special dante card for your computer, or do you just use your regular ethernet card? If I did your second version and wanted to keep the USB card but use Dante Via to send audio to a second computer, do both those computers need two more special Dante Ethernet cards?

And on the 9630, I really don;t see what would stop you from using that and an S32 as an interface. Maybe it doesn't have routing controls or allow you to set mic pre gain?
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Old 11-17-2018, 11:34 AM   #66
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What I mean is, on the computer end. Do you need to buy a special dante card for your computer, or do you just use your regular ethernet card? If I did your second version and wanted to keep the USB card but use Dante Via to send audio to a second computer, do both those computers need two more special Dante Ethernet cards?
a dedicated Dante PCIe card achieves higher channel count (128 i/o) and considerably lower latency than DVS or Dante Via (<1 ms vs. >5 ms, depending on the specs of the computers involved).

If you use Dante Via on the computer the X32 is connected to via USB, Dante Via would recognize the X32 as an USB audio inerterface of that computer and would enable you to route up to 32 channels to and from the X32 into/from the network. You could keep the USB card in the console. You would be able to send audio from the Dante Via computer to another computer (32 ch. per direction). The second computer would need DVS installed (Dante Via would also work - the two have slightly different capabilities, please read product descriptions at audinate.com). Both work over the built-in ethernet ports. The second computer could pick up up to 32 channels coming from the X32. In theory, it could even pick up another 32 channels of networked audio if you had more Dante sources because DVS can handle 64 i/o's.

In return, the second computer running DVS could send out up to 64 audio channels from a single audio application (not multiple simultaneously!) across the network (like from another Reaper instance). 32 channels of those could be picked up by Dante Via on the main computer and then get forwarded to the X32 via USB right inside Dante Via's routing window. Only possible drawback in this configuration could be the round trip latency because all Dante traffic is running via Dante software and built-in ethernet ports and no Dante hardware device.

It's very easy to try all this out during a few weeks using the free trial versions of DVS and Dante Via. See if it works for your particular config or not.

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Old 11-17-2018, 12:27 PM   #67
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It only happens to use the same physical RJ45 connectors for some reason
IMHO a very obvious and viable reason. It's standard to run CAT5-7 cables ending in RJ45 patchbays through a building (mostly a pair of those in parallel), and you can buy RJ45 cables everywhere. So you can use these alternatively for Ethernet or for AES50.

-Michael
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Old 11-17-2018, 12:43 PM   #68
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IMHO a very obvious and viable reason. It's standard to run CAT5-7 cables ending in RJ45 patchbays through a building (mostly a pair of those in parallel), and you can buy RJ45 cables everywhere. So you can use these alternatively for Ethernet or for AES50.

-Michael
sure Michael, I simply didn't wanna get into the details why they possibly chose RJ45. My point was to stress that it looks like something "networkable" but it isn't.

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Old 11-17-2018, 01:05 PM   #69
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Yep. It's a source of major misconception that RJ45 cables physically are always point to point, while in most cases they are used to create logical networks (e.g. by means of switches).

-Michael

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Old 11-18-2018, 10:49 AM   #70
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There's only two kinds of ethernet cables that are common: straight (point-to-point) and crossed.

99% these days are straight and used for all ethernet connections. These are wired point-to-point.

Years ago, you needed a crossed cable to go directly from one PC to another, without switch or hub between them. Today's computers are all auto-switching. They test the kind of cable and switch automatically. The same goes for speed. The only caveat for speed is that Windows starts at gbit and drops down. Other OSes start at 10 Mbps and go up. In rare cases, a connection goes wrong when you connect the two kinds.

Confusion may come from other cables using an RJ45 connector, but those aren't ethernet cables. They're serial cables and you won't come across these easily. Some others exist too, but these are even more rare.

There's also a drop (sniff) ethernet cable, but that one has 3 or even 4 connectors, is rare and confuses nobody because of the three connectors.

And there's also a patch cable. Short, with stranded wire. Other ethernet cables should have solid wire. Used for patching, obviously. Never use long cables with stranded wires. They will result in performance loss. And that's where AoIP often goes wrong. Some vendors have cable reels with stranded cable. That kind of cable lasts longer on a reel, but isn't up to specs. That's why they generally are only 60 or 75 m. Make 'em any longer and the connection is lost. Real UTP works up to 100 m officially, but in reality you can expect good UTP cable to support 130 to 160 m, depending on environment.
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Old 11-20-2018, 12:10 AM   #71
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Is there a place that shows what sort of computer you'd need to run the USB for 32 in 32 out at 64 samples on the X32?
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Old 11-20-2018, 01:04 AM   #72
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to / from where ?

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Old 11-20-2018, 01:37 AM   #73
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To use the XUSB card as an audio interface without crackles and dropouts.

Also, I would like to use the DL 32 outputs 1-6 as 3 sets of stereo headphone mixes, and would like those to come from Card 1-6, but I'd also like the talkback mic to get to those three.

How can I route it this way, assuming I don't use the USB card returns as the channel inputs in Routing/Inputs
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Old 11-20-2018, 07:51 AM   #74
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To use the USB card as an audio interface without crackles and dropouts.
That question makes no sense without considering what processing the PC is to do with that data.

(But I would not be able to answer even if I knew )

-Michael

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Old 11-20-2018, 11:25 AM   #75
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Not all computers are created equal...

And it's not as simple as CPU GHz, ram. The USB port itself matters. Some comuters have several USB ports on one internal hub. Laptops might have a camers, keyboard, trackpad on the same bus. All of these can interfere.

But I don't think you need to worry. RME sets the upper limit for USB2 at 54 channels. So 32 should be OK on any decent computer. I did a test with 32 in on a MB pro and let it run for hours. No problem at all. It wasn't the latest and greatest and it only had 4 GB ram, IIRC.

Hec, I've done 16 channel recordings on a near 20 year old G4 Mac. As long as the ports are stable, no problem.

Once you count on using VST's and sending the processed signal back out with low latency, all depends on the VST's. Some will work, some won't. As far as Reaper's own plugins, I can't remember one that induces serious latency.
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Old 11-20-2018, 06:12 PM   #76
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What Im asking is if someone has come up with a formula for computer parts to make this work on the M32/X32. This is no problem on this computer on my RME or MOTU's, but the M32 is totally choking on it
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Old 11-21-2018, 03:23 AM   #77
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I think only a system builder with vast experience in audio PC's can do that. And it won't even be a simple formula. More like an advice which motherboards will work.

Now, if your PC chokes, look at drivers. Maybe there's some conflict between the M32's driver and some other?

For the little testing I did with an X32 there was no remarkable inefficiency, or latency. But that was on a Mac, with Apple's USB2 audio driver.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:40 AM   #78
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I spoke to Jim Roseberry about it, and he had written about it before as well. He said the same thing

I can do 32x8 ok at 256, lower than that it can get sketchy. The MOTU and RME's I have do the same project at 26x26 at 64 with no burps.

It looks like Jim can't get it working either, and hard to beat his experience. And probably the KTDN9630 is the same driver

I was really asking if someone had actually seen a published formula, but now I'm thinking its something that doesn't exist because it couldn't exist
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:42 AM   #79
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The latency is actually pretty nice, solidly in the better middle on my chart!

http://kailuamusicschool.com/tech/ro...tency-roundup/

Not all that far behind my MOTU on Pci! But below 256, its really sketchy, where the motu has no problems at 64
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Old 11-22-2018, 02:37 AM   #80
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Warning for potential future X32/M32 purchasers, be aware that the drivers for the X-USB card for the X32 and the Midas M32 are total pieces of crap. Their system sound card performance is garbage, unable to handle basic auto 44/48k switching, ASIO performance is horrible even though round trip latency is pretty good. Do not expect this unit, no matter how much you pay for it, to replace the functions of even a 100 dollar audio interface, its THAT bad. I wish I would have had this info earlier, though I probably still would have purchased as the entire system does have some awesome benefits. Hopefully if anyone ever searches, this post will come up.

All that said, How is the X-Dante card?
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