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Old 11-24-2015, 05:27 AM   #1
ludwigmueller
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Default Post Production: Why we need tracks with uneven channel counts + native surround pan

Hello all,

this thread is tied with "Postproduction feature requests" (http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...=8#post1599865). There, I posted these requests:

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Originally Posted by ludwigmueller View Post

- native surround panner that kicks in as soon as you change the channel count to anything other than 2. With functions like divergence, channel linking and LFE amount.
formats: 5.1 and 7.1; ReaSurround is not a good workaround, because you can only guess what it does to the signals and you have to terribly abuse it to work as a "panner only", not an upmixer.

- ability to assign an uneven channel count to a track, like mono, 3-channel or 5-channel, so it can be routed and panned correctly. REAPER's 2-channel logic is never gonna be compatible with film mixing. because you always rely at least on a mono center channel.

- ability to render a stem with an uneven multichannel count, like LCR (3-channel) or 5.0 (5-channel). Right now, for LCR I have to render the stem and delete the silent 4th channel in Audacity...

- ability to select multiple tracks and change their channel count, parent channels and routing simultaneously. This would speed up things so much for me (even track templates are too slow)!
Here, I want to explain in detail why these features would be great to have. First, a general overview of the 5.1 speaker setup in a cinema:



So in the wav file of a 5.1 mix we have the following discrete channels:

1. Left (L)
2. Center (C)
3. Right (R)
4. Left Surround (LS)
5. Right Surround (RS)
6. LFE (Low Frequency Effects, a bass channel that only goes up to 120 Hz)

You can already see that the main part of the film mix plays in 3.0 across the L C R speakerfront, which is based on a 3-channel-logic that clashes with REAPER's 2-channel-system.



Next, I've sketched out the usual filmpostpro workflow, that shows further why mono, 3- and 5-channel tracks are so important:


- the dialog editor receives the OMF/AAF from the picture editor, polishes the dialog and delivers the final mono stems (one for each principal actor so they can still be panned/edited seperately) to the rerecording mixer

- if necessary, the ADR people rerecord certain dialog lines with the actors and deliver the final ADR mono stems to the rerecording mixer

- the sound designer adds surround atmospheres and sound effects to the picture. His stems can be mono, stereo, LCR, 5.0 or 5.1. Atmospheres are usually 5.0 or stereo, sound effects vary.

- the foley people record more sound effects to the picture, stuff like footsteps, cloth sounds etc. They deliver their mono stems to the rerecording mixer

- the music people record the music over the picture and deliver premixed stems to the mixer. Those stems are usually divided into instrument sections, high percussion, low percussion, reverb, etc. They come in stereo, LCR, 5.0 or 5.1

- the rerecording mixer imports all the stems from the different departments into his premix project. Here is the 5.1-premix project template that I tried to construct in REAPER:



The folders in this project represent the premix stems that will be rendered. The tracks within those folders are the stems that I get from the other departments. Except for dialog, I've only inserted one track per folder here, to keep it simple.

So during the premix phase, the rerecording mixer starts to pan all the dialog, foley and sound effects as needed and creates a rough balance between all the elements. He works in stems himself, like you can see in my project. At the end of the premix, he may have recorded the following stems:

1. Dialog (LCR)
2. Dialog IT (LCR) (International, with all the words cut out and replaced by atmosphere)
3. ADR (LCR)
4. Walla (5.0) (crowd, chatter, background dialog etc.)

5. Production FX (LCR) (sound effects recorded on set like a door being shut)
6. Foley Footsteps (LCR)
7. Foley Clothes (LCR)
8. Foley FX (LCR)
9. Foley Background (5.0)
10. SFX Diegetic (5.1) (SFX that can be heard by the characters)
11. SFX Non-Diegetic (5.1) (SFX that are not part of the story world)
12. Atmospheres Foreground (5.0)
13. Atmospheres Background (5.0)
13. Atmospheres Objects Foreground (5.0) (single objects like cars going by etc.)
14. Atmospheres Objects Background (5.0)
15. Reverb small (5.0)
16. Reverb mid (5.0)
17. Reverb large (5.0)
18. Score A (5.1)
19. Source Music (LCR) (music that plays in the story like a radio etc.)

With those stems, the final mix begins (usually in a cinema-like studio with the director present throughout) and the rerecording mixer delivers the following files:

1. Final mix (5.1), consisting of:

2. Music (5.1) including reverb
3. Dialog (5.0) including reverb
4. Effects (5.1) including reverb


As you can see, most stems that we receive, mix and deliver have an odd channel count and are fed by mono sources that need to be panned in surround natively within the DAW all the time.
If you hand over stems to other mixers, it is unacceptable if e.g. LCR-stems have 4 channels with the last channel silent.

So what should change exactly?

- I should be able to assign odd channel numbers to any track, like 3-channel, 5-channel etc.; Consequently, I should also be able to render files with odd channel numbers like 3-channel files etc.

- I should be able to switch any track into "mono mode" in the routing window, which basically means the same as "width: 0". I can still insert multichannel plugins and audio clips on it, only the output switches to mono. However, when this track sends its signal to another track/folder/output with 3 or more channels, a surround panner similar to ProTools/Cubase/Nuendo should automatically kick in:



If the mono track routes to a 3-channel-track, it is a LCR-panner.
If it routes to a 5-channel-track, it is a 5.0-panner (5.1 without LFE).
If it routes to a 6-channel-track, it is a 5.1-panner (including a knob for LFE amount).

- this also applies to stereo tracks: if a stereo track sends its signal to another track/folder/output with 3 or more channels, a surround panner should kick in, allowing me to place the stereo signal in the LCR, 5.0 or 5.1 environment of the destination.

- if a track has more than 2 output channels, a surround panner is not necessary, because the panning position of each channel is fixed and doesn't need to be changed: 3 channels automatically cause a fixed panning of L C R, 4 channels are quadrophonic (L R LS RS), 5 channels mean 5.0 and 6 channels 5.1.

I hope this post helps to illustrate the problems we have with REAPER in postpro and why these features would be very welcome If I should provide any more infos, let me know.

All the best,
Ludwig Müller

Last edited by ludwigmueller; 12-03-2015 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 11-24-2015, 02:26 PM   #2
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I'm going to add a big +1 to this request. I've just been given the job doing the entire audio production from location recording to foley and scoring for a feature film and will be using REAPER for the whole job. These requests would make things significantly easier to manage.
The final mix will be 5.1.

I've also been remixing an album I released last year and the new mixes are also 5.1. Again I am using REAPER and even for those music mixes, this FR would really improve my work flow.
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Old 11-24-2015, 05:03 PM   #3
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Very interesting Ludwig ... just a quick question: don't you use Pro Tools for sound post productions (that's the only reason I use Pro Tools in addition to Reaper and a few other programs)?

I've never used Reaper for surround projects (though I have used it for music in quadrophonic), doesn't Reaper have the ability to render multi channel wav files? That's a pretty crucial feature in post.
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Old 11-25-2015, 07:41 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
Very interesting Ludwig ... just a quick question: don't you use Pro Tools for sound post productions (that's the only reason I use Pro Tools in addition to Reaper and a few other programs)?

I've never used Reaper for surround projects (though I have used it for music in quadrophonic), doesn't Reaper have the ability to render multi channel wav files? That's a pretty crucial feature in post.
Hey, yes I still mainly work in ProTools when it comes to film mixing, but only because of these issues I've addressed here. But when it comes to SFX editing, sound design, foley recording, ADR and so forth, REAPER is my way to go!

I've finished two 5.1 film mixes in REAPER so far using ReaSurround and the workaround project setup I've described above. You can export multichannel files in REAPER, although only with an even number of channels like 2, 4, 6 etc.
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Old 11-26-2015, 10:49 AM   #5
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Hi people, this tread is perfect, i feel exactly the same about the features i need to post in Reaper.

I’m still depend on pro tools for 5.1 mixing, but i did make the switching for about 2 or 3 months for work that i don't depend on other people to send me material or 5.1 mixing, i do all in Reaper already.
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Old 11-30-2015, 07:13 AM   #6
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We should collect documentation on the panners most people use, and their respective feature set.

It may be only a small step to getting a solution to at least get basic work done efficiently.


I once tried to improvise a panner with an XBOX360 controller once, but I couldn't for the life of me hook up both axis of any one of the joystick controllers to one source in ReaSurround. In other words the whole thing did not work. Has anyone else managed to connect a joystick device to ReaSurround so far ?
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Old 11-30-2015, 11:10 PM   #7
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I agree with nearly all this OP. My projects are typically a minimum of 5.1, and usually 7.1 to ATMOS. Verbs are 5.0 or 7.0, Foley often LCR......

Only one thing I have a different view on:

Quote:
- if a track has more than 2 output channels, a surround panner is not necessary, because the panning position of each channel is fixed and doesn't need to be changed: 3 channels automatically cause a fixed panning of L C R, 4 channels are quadrophonic (L R LS RS), 5 channels mean 5.0 and 6 channels 5.1.
While we're designing a panner, lets also include one that freely allows us to re-pan (not just re-position) channels on surround tracks. I was there on the ground floor when Spanner was built and one of the principal reasons Justin made it, was that on Pro Tools (anything over 2 channel) tracks we were stuck with the pan position. Since editors have to conform premixes and stems, we often find pieces that were bused wrong, or need to be changed due to picture changes, etc.. So to free that process up, Spanner was born.

I used Spanner extensively on the 2nd two Hobbit films as track panners, and multiple times I took 7.1 premixes and re-used them as source tracks, re-panning all the channels in Spanner with full movement and range. It was freaking awesome to be able to do that without having to fold it all back to stereo or mono first. Anyway I'd love to see us open up multichannel tracks instead of lock them down like we currently do.

From what I can tell, ReaSurround is good for re-positioning channels, but when I try to pan and move channels over time like I do with Spanner, I cna't get that to work the way I want it to.
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Old 12-03-2015, 08:37 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice View Post
I agree with nearly all this OP. My projects are typically a minimum of 5.1, and usually 7.1 to ATMOS. Verbs are 5.0 or 7.0, Foley often LCR......

Only one thing I have a different view on:



While we're designing a panner, lets also include one that freely allows us to re-pan (not just re-position) channels on surround tracks. I was there on the ground floor when Spanner was built and one of the principal reasons Justin made it, was that on Pro Tools (anything over 2 channel) tracks we were stuck with the pan position. Since editors have to conform premixes and stems, we often find pieces that were bused wrong, or need to be changed due to picture changes, etc.. So to free that process up, Spanner was born.

I used Spanner extensively on the 2nd two Hobbit films as track panners, and multiple times I took 7.1 premixes and re-used them as source tracks, re-panning all the channels in Spanner with full movement and range. It was freaking awesome to be able to do that without having to fold it all back to stereo or mono first. Anyway I'd love to see us open up multichannel tracks instead of lock them down like we currently do.

From what I can tell, ReaSurround is good for re-positioning channels, but when I try to pan and move channels over time like I do with Spanner, I cna't get that to work the way I want it to.
Right on, that totally makes sense. By the way, if you insert a file into REAPER with the wrong channel configuration, you can insert a dummy plugin like "Channel Polarity Control" that does nothing to the signal itself when set to "normal". But by clicking on the "plug-in pin connector" on the top of the plugin window (on a 6 channel track it should say "6 in 6 out"), you can reroute the channels like this:



This example changes L C R LS RS LFE (ProTools/film) to L R C LFE LS RS (EBU).
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Old 12-03-2015, 11:17 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ludwigmueller View Post
You can export multichannel files in REAPER, although only with an even number of channels like 2, 4, 6 etc.
Hi,
you can type any value in the render channels box : "3" or "7"... or "53" if you like, and only these will be rendered in the file.
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Old 12-03-2015, 11:29 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice View Post
From what I can tell, ReaSurround is good for re-positioning channels, but when I try to pan and move channels over time like I do with Spanner, I cna't get that to work the way I want it to.
Do I understand well the distinction you do between "re-positionning" and "re-pan" ?
By "re-pan" you mean move all the inputs channels (for example 5) inside the same or a different setup (for example 7) ?

Yes, I agree, we have to select manually all the inputs dots, and it is not the global faders movements that are recorded, but all the individual x/y of all the inputs, making it very hard to edit afterwards !

But the choice of global movements and the diffusion is not bad at all.
I think that it doesn't lack a lot to be efficient.
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Old 12-03-2015, 01:27 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm duchenne View Post
Hi,
you can type any value in the render channels box : "3" or "7"... or "53" if you like, and only these will be rendered in the file.
Holy cow, sometimes the solution is so easy... Haven't tried that in 6 years. Thanks...
But still, let's say I have a dialog stem that's L C R. In REAPER, it will still be a 4 channel track and the meter will show one silent channel, which can be confusing.

Also, let's say I have 10 6-channel tracks, 8 5-channel tracks and 2 3-channel tracks that I want to render as stems. In the current render window, I can only select a global channel count for all the stems. The "Multichannel tracks to multichannel files" option won't do the trick here, because it only creates files with even channel counts.
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Old 12-04-2015, 12:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ludwigmueller View Post
Holy cow, sometimes the solution is so easy... Haven't tried that in 6 years. Thanks...
But still, let's say I have a dialog stem that's L C R. In REAPER, it will still be a 4 channel track and the meter will show one silent channel, which can be confusing.

Also, let's say I have 10 6-channel tracks, 8 5-channel tracks and 2 3-channel tracks that I want to render as stems. In the current render window, I can only select a global channel count for all the stems. The "Multichannel tracks to multichannel files" option won't do the trick here, because it only creates files with even channel counts.
Yes, we certainly need free value channels tracks.
I have the same problem for higher values, for example we jump from 16 to 20 and I need 18, or 40/48 when I need 42.
When I record the output of a track, I often have to delete some channels after.
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Old 12-04-2015, 11:13 AM   #13
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I wouldn't say no to these features so a "me too" here as well
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Old 12-23-2015, 12:01 PM   #14
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I don't know if you have seen the new Pyramix 10 ?

His panner and its integrations makes me wonder if Cockos could deal with something like this ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8l0LcOtg38

It is by far the best surround implementation I have ever seen...
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Old 12-23-2015, 03:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm duchenne View Post
I don't know if you have seen the new Pyramix 10 ?

His panner and its integrations makes me wonder if Cockos could deal with something like this ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8l0LcOtg38

It is by far the best surround implementation I have ever seen...
looks awesome!
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Old 12-24-2015, 02:23 AM   #16
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Looks fantastically practcal.
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Old 12-24-2015, 03:32 AM   #17
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That looks awesome
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Old 03-03-2016, 11:05 PM   #18
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Plus 1 from me too. We need a quality panner.
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Old 03-05-2016, 11:53 PM   #19
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Love that Pyramix panner! That would be prefect for Ambisonic mixing. That video makes me want to take a deeper look at Pyramix.
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Old 03-06-2016, 03:42 AM   #20
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I wrote a piece here some time ago suggesting that the panner could be a changeable module built into the MCP/TCP. It was part of a request for being able to select single channel tracks, but this could apply to odd-numbered tracks too.

The gist of the idea was you selected the number of channels and the channel mode, you selected the pan device and you then could right-click the panner and choose via pin-matrix, the connections from source to pan and pan to output channels. Default one and two channel tracks would have pan or balance come up with default connections, but you could open-up the panel and change stuff if you want.

Save your setups to track templates and much more of the audio world has just opened up to you. 99% of the time defaults would prob be ok, but we REAPER users are the 1%


This would, of course, need a selection of new pan modules and some thinking to get it right. I also requested a choice of meters, with pin-connection facility, so you could mix and match. The idea is to be configurable from source (wav) channels, channel-mode (how many channels from the source are actually displayed/used), track channels, pan type (including configurable ins and outs) and meter channels and type (num of channels and channel they came from, pre or post, peak, RMS, K-peak and K-RMS, LU and K-LU). Beyond this, the only thing I can think of is opening-up the pan module to the development community for esoteric/bells-and-whistles stuff.


That, area-selection, ARA, fader dB-marks built into WALTER and MIDI notation, and you've got yourself v6



>
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Old 03-06-2016, 04:33 AM   #21
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Yes a native surround pan is mandatory. Simple form in mcp, plus the ability to customise it in a special window.

A real surround pan, would allow us to have mono or stereo track, routed to a 5.1 bus through the pan, rather than a mono track pre panned to 6 channels send to another 6 channels track. This would save hundreads of channels in every projects I make.
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Old 01-08-2017, 09:36 AM   #22
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+1 to this thread. This would be a huge help to me as well. I've got a template put together for doing 5.1 mixes in Reaper, much like the OP's, but it has the same caveats that have to be remembered.

I will reply later with information on using a hardware joystick for surround panning though. I've got that working here with a JL Cooper AXOS panner box. It took some experimentation but I've managed to mix some cinematics with it (I work in games, not film) and it has worked well for me.

Let's keep this thread going. We need these features
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:15 AM   #23
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I don't have time to retype the instructions on how to do this, but here's an email I sent to the JL Cooper team about how I got it working. I was discussing it with them when I initially bought the box and was trying to get it to work with Reaper. It has an issue where the Y axis is inverted. So if you're attempting to use a different panner, skip the bit about using ReaLearn to flip the axis. The rest of it us useful though



The big problem with using the Axos Panner in Reaper is that the Y axis is inverted. Up is down, down is up. I don't know if this is just an implementation thing with Pro Tools or what, but it's an issue. Note for the folks at JL Cooper: if there was some hidden option to invert the Y axis on the controller, none of the below would be necessary. You could just flip the Y axis and call it a day

Also note that this is not a perfect solution. It really only works for panning mono sounds. That's 99% of what I do, so it doesn't bother me, although I will poke at it and try to find a way of panning multichannel sounds with this (I usually just hard route them or split them across multiple mono tracks in a sub, depending on what I'm doing).

So in order to fix the inversion issue, here's what you do in Reaper.

Install a Reaper add-on called ReaLearn, found here:

https://www.helgoboss.org/projects/realearn/

It's free, but I encourage you to donate if you're going to use it for real production.

Run the installer. It's available for Mac and Windows.

Connect your Axos Panner to your computer if it's not already connected.

Launch Reaper, go to Preferences > MIDI Devices.

Find the JL Cooper Axos Panner on the Input pane, right click, click "Enable input." If you want to use the additional buttons and knobs, right click again and also click "Enable input for control messages." You need both checked to use all of the options of the panner.

The rest of these steps, once finished, can be saved as a track template. Highly recommended, that prevents you from having to set this up every time. Makes life much easier

Create a track, set up your routing to make it however many channels you need.

Insert an instance of ReaSurround on your track. Click the dropdown box to set your output to whatever you need (5.1, quad, etc.), then change Input Channels to 1.

Set the MIDI input of the track to the JL Cooper Axos Panner, All Channels. Record arm the track.

Click the Input FX button next to the MIDI input dropdown box. Insert an instance of ReaLearn.

Within ReaLearn, click the Add Mapping button twice to create two mappers.

Click the Edit button for the first mapper. Under Source, select Type: CC Value, Channel: 15, CC Number: 3, Character: Knob/Fader, leave 14-bit values unchecked. Under Target, select Type: Track FX parameter, FX: VST: ReaSurround (Cockos), Parameter: in 1 Y. Under Mode select Type: Absolute, then tick the Reverse checkbox. Hit OK.

Click the Edit button for the second mapper. Under Source, select Type: CC Value, Channel: 15, CC Number: 2, Character: Knob/Fader, leave 14-bit values unchecked. Under Target, select Type: Track FX parameter, FX: VST: ReaSurround (Cockos), Parameter: in 1 X. Under Mode select Type: Absolute, then DO NOT tick the Reverse checkbox. Hit OK.

You can now close the Input FX window for the track.

Arm the track for record, and incoming MIDI from the Axos Panner will pass through the track to the ReaSurround panner, and the Y axis will be flipped so that it pans correctly.

Now you need to assign the MIDI CCs to the 1X and 1Y parameters in ReaSurround. Make sure Joystick Touch Enable is activated on the Axos panner. Using the Parameter Learn function in your instance of Reaper, assign the X axis of the Axos panner to the 1X axis in ReaSurround. Use CC mode: Absolute, and leave all the tick boxes unticked. Click Ok. Repeat the steps for the 1Y parameter in ReaSurround.

Click Param > Default controller mappings > Save as default. This will save the Axos assignments as the default controller mappings for ReaSurround.

At this point, just arm automation for in 1 X and in 1 Y and you can record pan moves using Reaper automation as normal. Just be sure to record disarm the track when you're done. If you want to gang multiple tracks and pan them together, you can do this as well, just record arm multiple tracks and pan.

NOTE: Do NOT go into record mode to write automation. Just PLAY. You have to use the automation system in Reaper to capture automation moves from the Axos Panner.

To assign the rest of the buttons and knobs to ReaSurround, use the standard Parameter Learn feature in the plugin window. In my experience using the "Enable only when effect configuration is focused" option is great for these, and once you get it all configured as you want, you can use the Param > Default Controller Mappings > Save as default to write your controller mapping to a file that gets auto-loaded every time that plugin loads, and you'll never have to remap things again. All my common use plugins are mapped to my control surfaces this way.


It's absolutely not perfect, but it works.
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:42 AM   #24
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+1 for this!! it would be a killer feature for film post users..Pls lets have this asap
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:07 AM   #25
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+1 for this!! it would be a killer feature for film post users..Pls lets have this asap
+1 for this.
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Old 11-02-2017, 07:41 AM   #26
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Like AAF\OMF export\import very usefull feature request.
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Old 11-13-2017, 02:07 PM   #27
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Default Reaper Surround Features

I'm currently living in Nuendo but want to switch to Reaper for sound design und game sound work. I'm also mixing movies in 5.1 in Nuendo and would really welcome the suggestions from Ludwig to make a solid surround setup possible in Reaper. It would allow me to completely switch to Reaper and leaving Nuendo behind. Reaper is currently not well suited / intuitive for surround work.

But I'm a little surprised that this thread is almost 2 years old and not much has been done in this space.

+1
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Old 11-16-2017, 01:55 AM   #28
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+1 for this feature
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Old 11-16-2017, 09:17 AM   #29
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Great feature request! We could bring that one step further and make the panning system ready for 3D-audio (Auro 3D, Dolby Atmos...)
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Old 11-17-2017, 03:04 PM   #30
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Default Sweetspot mix for 5.1 wav to 4 channel ambisonic wav (1st order)

I need a sweetspot mix for my 5.1 wav (or sometimes 6 mono) to a 4 channel ambisonic layout that best represents the original 5.1 mapping. I cant get it right in Reasurround and all the plugin mashups Im experimenting with. Getting close, but ends up a mess. I have a 5.1 test file with a person saying "left, center, right, right surround, left surround, (boom for LFE)". Anybody got a template for what I need? I want an ambisonic mix to do as best as possible to preserve it.
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Old 11-20-2017, 12:42 AM   #31
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Great FR.
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:24 AM   #32
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I just saw this video from The Reaper Blog:
https://reaperblog.net/2017/11/vijay...am_interview2/

Great to see even big movie productions use Reaper for creative mixing and sound effects, but it's really daunting to see all the hoops they have to jump through to get a proper output with the right channels.

Routing a stereo track to a quad track, making a special channel assignment, panning the stereo track hard right to make the audio end up in channel 2 of 4, which in this case represents the center channel in LCR with one dead channel and stuff like that if I understood correctly. All the tricks necessary to get something to pan correctly across LCR or back to front... It's a real hassle, although possible.

Implementing this request would make so many hacks and routing tricks unnecessary.
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:33 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint_6 View Post
I just saw this video from The Reaper Blog:
https://reaperblog.net/2017/11/vijay...am_interview2/

Great to see even big movie productions use Reaper for creative mixing and sound effects, but it's really daunting to see all the hoops they have to jump through to get a proper output with the right channels.

Routing a stereo track to a quad track, making a special channel assignment, panning the stereo track hard right to make the audio end up in channel 2 of 4, which in this case represents the center channel in LCR with one dead channel and stuff like that if I understood correctly. All the tricks necessary to get something to pan correctly across LCR or back to front... It's a real hassle, although possible.

Implementing this request would make so many hacks and routing tricks unnecessary.

Hi flint. It's me on the video. 😂. Yes I would love a simple LCR pan. That will make life so much easier for me.
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:43 AM   #34
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I'm currently upgrading to 5.1. So I hope that feature comes soon. Don't wanna switch to Pro Tools for that ...
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:46 AM   #35
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@Justin @Schwa

Function

We've got five options for stereo panning, and none for more or less than that on a native level.

ReaSurround is a complex piece of kit. I can't make it work in 30 seconds like I can the simple, streamlined panners that do cater to my needs.

I mix in 5.1 using the Surround Pan Stereo to 5.1 Processor MK2, a VST plugin derived from a JS plugin, both found here.

Simplicity has its place. ReaSurround just ain't it for me.

Saving time
is the most important thing here. A native panner can do that more than any plugin.

By default it'll just sit there passing things through.

Graphically it can indicate a rough approximate of a position in the most widely use channel configurations, which are 2, 4.0, 5.1 and 7.1, with 9.1 plus Atmos coming in last right now. Dolby is seemingly starting to put VST plugins out there for that soon. The more special cases may be well covered with ReaSurround and other plugins already.


I mean, really guys, what's the problem ? Stereo is 50-60 years old in the mainstream music business. Regular 5.1 has been a staple for about 25 years now.

Isn't it time Reaper had an actual TRACK PANNER that supported those common channel configurations as well ?
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:11 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svijayrathinam View Post
Hi flint. It's me on the video. 😂. Yes I would love a simple LCR pan. That will make life so much easier for me.
Hey Vijay! I sent you a PM
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:20 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Gass n Klang View Post
I'm currently upgrading to 5.1. So I hope that feature comes soon.
I wouldn't hold my breath...
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Old 11-30-2017, 11:52 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
@Justin @Schwa

Function

We've got five options for stereo panning, and none for more or less than that on a native level.

ReaSurround is a complex piece of kit. I can't make it work in 30 seconds like I can the simple, streamlined panners that do cater to my needs.

I mix in 5.1 using the Surround Pan Stereo to 5.1 Processor MK2, a VST plugin derived from a JS plugin, both found here.

Simplicity has its place. ReaSurround just ain't it for me.

Saving time
is the most important thing here. A native panner can do that more than any plugin.

By default it'll just sit there passing things through.

Graphically it can indicate a rough approximate of a position in the most widely use channel configurations, which are 2, 4.0, 5.1 and 7.1, with 9.1 plus Atmos coming in last right now. Dolby is seemingly starting to put VST plugins out there for that soon. The more special cases may be well covered with ReaSurround and other plugins already.


I mean, really guys, what's the problem ? Stereo is 50-60 years old in the mainstream music business. Regular 5.1 has been a staple for about 25 years now.

Isn't it time Reaper had an actual TRACK PANNER that supported those common channel configurations as well ?
I thought ReaSurround was a mess too. I also use the JS 5.1 surround panner.

I think Reaper should pick a direction and be consistent. Either go with integrated panning across the board and make an integrated surround panner or go consistently with using plugins for any and all panning - which would mean removing the integrated stereo panner - and require a plugin for all cases.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:47 AM   #39
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I thought ReaSurround was a mess too. I also use the JS 5.1 surround panner.

I think Reaper should pick a direction and be consistent. Either go with integrated panning across the board and make an integrated surround panner or go consistently with using plugins for any and all panning - which would mean removing the integrated stereo panner - and require a plugin for all cases.
Agreed, at the same time I think both options would wind up (at least in their default configuration) looking like pretty much the same thing. An integrated panner would hopefully allow one to decide what the panning output of a track should be at any point during production. A plugin would probably require more reconfiguration if changing the scheme midway.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:14 AM   #40
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The last couple mixes I've worked on I've tried making both the stereo and 5.1 mix in the same session. (Mute either the 2.0 bus or the 5.1 bus to listen.)

I like not having the back and forth towards the end of the mix. (Pasting new work into the other session as it comes up.) The downside is some extra time spent routing and a few clumsy busing scenarios that seemed to take a little too long to dial up.

I've got to say at the end of the day I think the bigger PITA is working around the minimum 2 channel track count, not the lack of an integrated surround panner.
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