Old 06-26-2012, 05:09 PM   #41
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Use what you've got, to the best of your ability, and be grateful for the opportunity.
this
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Old 06-26-2012, 06:49 PM   #42
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I'll tell you why: because it totally sucks when you're listening to a really cool tune and suddenly realise the frikin piano is one of the sounds that comes packaged with Kontakt. I don't know why it's such a disappointment, but it is. It's like, well now it's nothing special, because I can get the exact same stupid sound. It's like it has no value because the sound is, or can be anywhere, on any recording, because everyone who has Kontakt has that exact same piano sound. Its sonic value is nil.
Really? Alright, let's put that to the test. I've recorded 4 pianos for you - one is a Kontakt Piano, all I say about the rest is that they could be Ivory, Galaxy, EWQL or Pianoteq Pianos - heck, one could even be an actual piano recorded by me You guys tell me which is which and why its sonic value is nil:
http://www.mediafire.com/?84tkgs8da46kh57
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Old 06-26-2012, 06:53 PM   #43
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Really? Alright, let's put that to the test. I've recorded 4 pianos for you - one is a Kontakt Piano, all I say about the rest is that they could be Ivory, Galaxy, EWQL or Pianoteq Pianos - heck, one could even be an actual piano recorded by me You guys tell me which is which and why its sonic value is nil:
http://www.mediafire.com/?84tkgs8da46kh57
I admit I can't tell which is real for sure, if any.

Edit. Actually I will guess that they are all fake.

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Old 06-26-2012, 06:53 PM   #44
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A good song is a good song and snobbery will always be just that, no matter if it is about class divide or presets
Economics, not snobbery.

.

Last edited by Panic; 06-26-2012 at 07:36 PM. Reason: forgot the quote
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:34 PM   #45
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Really? Alright, let's put that to the test. I've recorded 4 pianos for you - one is a Kontakt Piano, all I say about the rest is that they could be Ivory, Galaxy, EWQL or Pianoteq Pianos - heck, one could even be an actual piano recorded by me You guys tell me which is which and why its sonic value is nil:
http://www.mediafire.com/?84tkgs8da46kh57
Nothing to prove here. Just expressing a point of view. I guess people don't get that.

As for the pianos; all Kontakt. I've already explained why I think they have no value, but if you don't get it, you don't get it. You can dress it up however you want, but you can't change the fundamental instrument.

Last edited by Panic; 07-02-2012 at 09:30 AM. Reason: bit of clarifying
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:52 AM   #46
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vsti's arent the problem, the problem is the barometric pressure in the listening environment. sound finally must travel on air, and the elevation and temperature have more of an effect on the value of sound than whether the source was a real Moge synth or if it was a Casio Moge synth.

also, mp3's.

edit:
but seriously, the value of a sound is judged based on weather

1) someone pays for it
or
2) someone steals it
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:25 PM   #47
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Economics, not snobbery.

.
Economics or not, it definitely comes off as snobbery.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:56 AM   #48
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I think Diva and Poly-Ana are as close to real analogue synths as you can get in vsti form.In fact they are probably much better than many hardware synths.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:13 AM   #49
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I've since come to the conclusion that none of it really matters as long as the song is any good.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:21 AM   #50
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no doubt i prefer the real thing whenever i can.
i prefer eating real chicken soup instead of Maggi / Knorr / whatever instant soups, and i prefer shooting my video without any CGI or serious compositing.
id never use a stock footage in my videos.. (and id prefer shooting to Film, but..)

i cant deny the benefits of the VSTi, but i always lack of inspiration when working with them. i remember the times when i had some cool analogs. what fun that was! and sort of unique sounds.. better sounds overall than i can get w/VSTi nowadays.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:49 PM   #51
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Even though I haven't had much cash to spend, I've collected quite many instruments throughout the years, acoustic and electric guitars, basses, mandolins, ukes, bouzouki etc. stringed instruments, but also flute, recorders, upright bass, drums, blues harps, shakers, tambos, maracas and lots of other little stuff. Sadly I don't have any real keys, just virtual pianos, rhodes, wurlis, hammonds etc.


What is great with real instruments is the sound, of course, but also the fact that you can play them with personality and also record them in many ways. Downside is that you have to play them I mean it is much easier to bang your midi keys or program stuff, if you are after fluent performances. You can slow down tempo and record stuff with half speed, fix bum notes, etc. But of course some of that is just what makes things interesting. It is just that if you want to sound musical, there are merits to virtual instruments. Unless of course you hire someone else to play that stuff.

Another big problem with real instruments is that you need them, and you need recording equipment and most of all, you need the space. I think there is nothing wrong if people want to fulfill their musical ideas with virtual instruments when they don't have enough money or skill to play them for real.

But still, nothing beats the real thing. I am so happy that I ditched my sampled drums and bought real ones, and learnt to play them at least adequately. It might not sound perfect (far from it) but it still sounds better to me and most importantly, I can finally get the drumsounds I've always wanted. Oh and it is mad fun banging them too

I am mostly bassist and guitarist and I would never use virtual instruments for those. For keys I need the help I get from MIDI but if I would be "real" piano player, I would buy a real piano.

I believe that when you combine virtual stuff with real instruments (even simple tambourine and shaker etc.) it always gets better.

There is one thing that I have wondered concerning virtual instruments and FX plugins: when we use virtual stuff, we are always comparing it to our mental image of "the real thing" and feel that every lacking detail is a trainwreck. But when we use real instruments, we don't care about that, because the sounds, however bad, are still "authentic"

I hope that in the future we can just use our ears and choose stuff based on sound. On the other hand, I love the glow of mullard and telefunken behind the grille

One thing that I really miss is some real brass or sax, even though I have some physical modelling stuff, it just isn't good enough for solo stuff.



EDIT: oh and one thing to add: it is very much fun to do your own sample sets! They can be unique yet there is still the advantages of virtual sounds.

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Old 09-04-2012, 01:06 PM   #52
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Not to sound cheeky, but the only virtual sound is the one you didn't make yet. Virtual synths aren't virtual anymore, its just that computers have gotten better at telling amplifiers how hard and fast to move a speaker, and finally, we have accepted the fact that nobody can tell the difference between digital and analog anymore. In short, if you can hear it, it's analog. Music and musical composition is a matter of taste.
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Old 09-04-2012, 01:15 PM   #53
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I don't know why it's such a disappointment, but it is. It's like, well now it's nothing special, because I can get the exact same stupid sound. It's like it has no value because the sound is, or can be anywhere, on any recording, because everyone who has Kontakt has that exact same piano sound. Its sonic value is nil.
But if you are listening to the music - to the notes, melodies, harmonies, chords, rhythms, arrangements and composition - then it matters a lot less.
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Old 09-04-2012, 01:45 PM   #54
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But if you are listening to the music - to the notes, melodies, harmonies, chords, rhythms, arrangements and composition - then it matters a lot less.
Agree. See post 49
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:59 PM   #55
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But if you are listening to the music - to the notes, melodies, harmonies, chords, rhythms, arrangements and composition - then it matters a lot less.
right. i mean, back in the day, mozart wrote for the same sounds in an orchestra that anyone else did.

i mean, there's merit to making your own sounds, to make them your own, and you can do this with any sound that anyone else can get. whether it be reverbs, or harmonic saturation, or even stuff like doublers and the settings within the plugins also.

but really what matters is the music. i mean, if you want a piano, then you want a piano, and just that makes it the same sound as any piano in that it is pianoish, and that's ok. piano is good. but then you make your style of song, and find a piano sound that fits that well.

with digital stuff you can make sounds much more your own, but to me, it's not the sound necessarily, but how you use the sound.

but like i said, there is merit in the sound itself, in the mix, in uniqueness to that, but imo, first and foremost, what's important is the music.

and that's infinitely unique. give everyone the same sounding equipment, and some songs will be good and some less. using the same sounds doesn't make the music worse or better.

different sounds do inspire differently though as well, but having the same vsts as a million other people doesn't bother me at all, because i know the music i will make will be compeltely unique and my own, even if i will use some of the same plugins as others. even if i use some of the same presets. i don't care.
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Old 09-04-2012, 04:17 PM   #56
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I've since come to the conclusion that none of it really matters as long as the song is any good.
Quite right,if it sounds good it is good.
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Old 09-04-2012, 04:51 PM   #57
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i cant deny the benefits of the VSTi, but i always lack of inspiration when working with them. i remember the times when i had some cool analogs. what fun that was! and sort of unique sounds.. better sounds overall than i can get w/VSTi nowadays.
I remember getting a MicroMoog about 1975-6. What a blast it was to twirl knobs and press and push the ribbon controller. Later, I even had a MemoryMoog, which was an analog beast. (Quirky, as any Moog product at the time, though.)

I still have a Roland V-Synth, which is based on analog modeling. Tons of knobs and controllers with which to fiddle around.

I have to admit, the only thing that keeps me from having as much "twiddling" fun with my VSTi's, is my laziness.
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Old 09-04-2012, 05:53 PM   #58
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yeah me either... or a superjupiter, a oberheim 12, or a memorymoog (my faves)
Don't forget the DX7 which seems to have found its way onto every other 80s tune ever recorded.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:02 PM   #59
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Now to the OPs credit... I think part of the problem with VSTs is so much of the entire sound package is from a single VST and core set of alogrithms... IMHO designers spend way too much time trying to create presets that sound like the complete, mastered, finished product (the problem with presets). When rolling your own preset its the same built in ambience, reverb, chorus, delay and so on. And everyone else on the planet has that exact same set of choices.

That's one of the main reasons I returned to micing amps for my guitar tracks, not because "I can hear some sonic difference" but because its my ambience in my physical room, my placement of the mic, my mic, my everything which ends up sounding much more like "me" than selecting from a list of realities in someone elses world.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:11 PM   #60
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Don't forget the DX7 which seems to have found its way onto every other 80s tune ever recorded.
well, yeah, but it's lower on my list because of that overuse
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:35 PM   #61
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But if you are listening to the music - to the notes, melodies, harmonies, chords, rhythms, arrangements and composition - then it matters a lot less.
Totally agree!
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:41 PM   #62
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Don't forget the DX7 which seems to have found its way onto every other 80s tune ever recorded.
my dad had one of those. at the time, i didn't realize exactly what that was. super cheese sounds. i remember he had some cartridges too that were all decked out in kanji that you could plug in there for some extra fm sounds, even had a breath controller.

personally, i never really liked it. always thought the sounds sucked, and the action sucked. but it was still fun to play with. we had an atari st too. atari was awesome back in the day.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:49 PM   #63
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But if you are listening to the music - to the notes, melodies, harmonies, chords, rhythms, arrangements and composition - then it matters a lot less.
Imagine listening only to the greatest compositions evah, all being sung by Jim Nabors and only Jim Nabors for the rest of your life... That will grow tiring regardless of the song. Instruments are voices and voices with their small differences that distinguish them are quite important to the expression of melody, harmony, chord, rhythm and arrangment. If they weren't we could and would only make music with simple, non-complex sine waves.

The brain is very good at finding familiarity and growing borde of it; it likes to be challenged and not just by composition. That doesn't go agaisnt your point at all, but rather offers that there where the value is, isn't always clear cut. It is always a balance between the obvious and not so obvious.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:51 PM   #64
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my dad had one of those. at the time, i didn't realize exactly what that was. super cheese sounds.
IIRC it was on about every romantic ballad released there for awhile. Songs made with a DX7 probably got more young dudes laid in the 80s than any other out there, including your dad. Not that I liked it per se, just sayin'.
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:13 PM   #65
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Imagine listening only to the greatest compositions evah, all being sung by Jim Nabors and only Jim Nabors for the rest of your life... That will grow tiring regardless of the song. Instruments are voices and voices with their small differences that distinguish them are quite important to the expression of melody, harmony, chord, rhythm and arrangment. If they weren't we could and would only make music with simple, non-complex sine waves.

The brain is very good at finding familiarity and growing borde of it; it likes to be challenged and not just by composition. That doesn't go agaisnt your point at all, but rather offers that there where the value is, isn't always clear cut. It is always a balance between the obvious and not so obvious.
well, ya, but a voice and the timber of the voice affects what sort of style it goes well with. that's like saying that every song would have piano in it, rather than every song having the same piano vst in it, imo.
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:14 PM   #66
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IIRC it was on about every romantic ballad released there for awhile. Songs made with a DX7 probably got more young dudes laid in the 80s than any other out there, including your dad. Not that I liked it per se, just sayin'.
ok... gross... you crossed a line there, a horrible line.
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:16 PM   #67
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ok... gross... you crossed a line there, a horrible line.
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:28 PM   #68
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IIRC it was on about every romantic ballad released there for awhile. Songs made with a DX7...
sure, but digital is so cold. the analog conceptions were much warmer....
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:31 PM   #69
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sure, but digital is so cold. the analog conceptions were much warmer....
They used a more fluid ambiotic processing back then.
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:32 PM   #70
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ok... gross... you crossed a line there, a horrible line.
LOL, you must separate the first sentence from the second sentence contextually. Second sentence refers to the DX7, otherwise... ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwweeeewwwwweeee.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:22 AM   #71
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I had aDX7 and dumped it on someone else when I realised that the only person who ever really got to grips with programming it in any depth was Brian Eno.
And I dont have that level of obsessiveness!
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:31 AM   #72
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If I hear another Rachmaninov album played on a fricking Bosendorfer I'm gonna puke...nah..not happening.

In Irish traditional music we have the tin whistle..retailing at about €10..everybody plays one at some point in their lives.An abominable instrument in the wrong hands..but when played well quite nice.spooky and melancholy and enchanting and kick arse rocking even...and when played well you dont think..aw no..not the fricking tin whistle again..its been in about 5 million jigs and reels over the last few hundred years.You just go..hey..nice tune man.

Same thing applies to Kontakt pianos.

I prefer shittier sounding fake pianos myself.They've more soul.
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:47 PM   #73
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I had aDX7 and dumped it on someone else when I realised that the only person who ever really got to grips with programming it in any depth was Brian Eno.
And I dont have that level of obsessiveness!
ya, well, fm synthesis is complex enough, and it's not like the DX7 had the most user friendly interface in the universe.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:03 PM   #74
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It's strange, when the DX7 came out, I had the MemoryMoog I mentioned previously, and I totally thought the sound of the DX7 sucked wind. I could not believe everybody was interested in getting one.

At the time, I just laughed at people who thought they were so awesome.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:12 PM   #75
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It's strange, when the DX7 came out, I had the MemoryMoog I mentioned previously, and I totally thought the sound of the DX7 sucked wind. I could not believe everybody was interested in getting one.

At the time, I just laughed at people who thought they were so awesome.
Its a much newer piece but I still have a JV1080 (circa 1997) sitting here in my rack.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:18 PM   #76
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Its a much newer piece but I still have a JV1080 (circa 1997) sitting here in my rack.
Haha! I am looking at my Roland JV-1000 sitting here on "my" rack.

It my least used keyboard in studio. It's cool, but I just don't use it except in conjunction with other keyboards, for live situations.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:23 PM   #77
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Haha! I am looking at my Roland JV-1000 sitting here on "my" rack.

It my least used keyboard in studio. It's cool, but I just don't use it except in conjunction with other keyboards, for live situations.
I don't use mine that often. I have the session expansion card so I do use the grand piano from time to time. But I'm not a keyboard player either.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:34 PM   #78
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I don't use mine that often. I have the session expansion card so I do use the grand piano from time to time. But I'm not a keyboard player either.
i loooooove keyboard. godbless the genius that invented the keyboard, which i guess was teh clavichord. such a great shape and interface for an instrument. but guitar is so fucking amazing too, and the acoustic sound it makes is so great.

digital stuff is cool, digital age is cool, distortion is cool. i can appreciate any sort of way of manipulation sound, and making cool sounds to make music with.

but there's something i love so much about the simplicity of an acoustic instrument, and there's something so amazing about when one sounds awesome.

it's just like an object made of certain materials, and of a certain shape, that you can blow into, or pluck, or hit, and it makes an amazing sound.

i love that. it's so simple, yet so complex, so precise. it's like, poetic.

don't get me wrong, there is lots of art and precision in making all other sorts of sounds in the electronic realm as well, but i like the simplicity of just an object of a certain shape. so simple, and i love that it is nothing without a great musician. computers do alot more without requiring a great musician.

it's like a really good pencil and a white sheet of paper. it is nothing. but put it in the right hands and give it some time, and it is one of the most beautiful things in the world.

artists are awesome.
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Old 09-09-2012, 02:02 PM   #79
reapercurious
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let's do the maths:

assuming all people can hear,

those who listen to and appreciate music or patternistic/ambient sound/silence are group A

musicians are group B

song writers are group C

engineers are group D

audiophiles are group E

marketing, distribution, legal and logistics are group F

drug dealers are group G (i know, surprise they aren't in group F)

anyway, alls i was saying was there are a lot of people in all these roles, and they eventually either get sophisticated or move on to other roles (including phyiscal death) so basically the sheyit dont matter anyway.

oh yeah, i almost forgot,

people who program VST sheyit are group H

people who spend their time reading KVR and online [strike]crap[/strike] kipple instead of actually making or listening even to music are group I (idiots)

those who cant stand music or are otherwise indifferent are group J.

there that about covers it, (asides from the maths yet.)

whups, i almost forgot that people make instruments for real might as well be group K.

and we are getting into infinitesimally smaller and smaller percentages of the mass blob of societal culture.

Last edited by reapercurious; 09-09-2012 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:46 AM   #80
ivansc
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I'll have some of what he had!
Excellent if slightly deranged-sounding analysis, m'boy.

Now what was the question?
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