Old 01-17-2015, 09:49 AM   #81
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A null test can be all in your head?
A null test can prove which audio file sounds "better"?


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I wouldn't hold up blind testing as a paragon of the scientific method. It's basically just a step up from questionnaires as a research tool - perhaps an important first step in some cases, but still...
Feel free to come up with a better method.
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Old 01-17-2015, 01:59 PM   #82
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A null test can prove which audio file sounds "better"?
it can prove which files contain the same information/sound
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Old 01-17-2015, 02:29 PM   #83
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it can prove which files contain the same information/sound
The voice of reason

Because somebody tried to use a null test to explain why audio from DAW X is superior to that from DAW Y.
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Old 01-17-2015, 03:45 PM   #84
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A null test can prove which audio file sounds "better"?
I never said that.

Two files that do not null are different regardless of bias.

"Better" is subjective.

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Feel free to come up with a better method.
fMRI.
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Old 01-17-2015, 05:16 PM   #85
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I can tell the future ... I am a prophet, because I know where this thread is heading and what will happen.

that is a deja vu - thread. gues where I read all this years ago. starts with Gear and ends with Slutz. at first there is the scientific method, null-tests and double blind tests. then come the people that dont understand scientific methods (would like to know their grade in maths ...) and tell that there are things beyond that scientific methods and all the measurements in the world cant cover ...

... but their ears.

holy crap. when will people without any knowledge please shut the f up when people are talking who know what they are talking about?

and now lets talk about deja vu ...
and now lets talk about deja vu ...
and now lets talk about deja vu ...
and now lets talk about deja vu ...
and now lets talk about deja vu ...
and now lets talk about deja vu ...
and now lets talk about deja vu ...
...
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Old 01-17-2015, 06:00 PM   #86
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I can tell the future ... I am a prophet, because I know where this thread is heading and what will happen.

that is a deja vu - thread. gues where I read all this years ago. starts with Gear and ends with Slutz. at first there is the scientific method, null-tests and double blind tests. then come the people that dont understand scientific methods (would like to know their grade in maths ...) and tell that there are things beyond that scientific methods and all the measurements in the world cant cover ...

... but their ears.

holy crap. when will people without any knowledge please shut the f up when people are talking who know what they are talking about?

and now lets talk about deja vu ...
and now lets talk about deja vu ...
and now lets talk about deja vu ...
and now lets talk about deja vu ...
and now lets talk about deja vu ...
and now lets talk about deja vu ...
and now lets talk about deja vu ...
...
Well, no-one's made such claims for their ears in the thread yet...

However, I think it is worth bearing in mind that theories can only ever be proven false, and never correct. Also that many more theories, based on empirical evidence, have been proven false than not.

This is an article in response to another, but it sums things up well:
http://www.theguardian.com/science/o...-studies-wrong

True scientists are open minded, and very aware that, not only might they not know it all, but they could be fundamentally wrong about many things.
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Old 01-17-2015, 07:17 PM   #87
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True scientists are open minded, and very aware that, not only might they not know it all, but they could be fundamentally wrong about many things
I'm no scientist but that is the approach I take. IOW, of the things I can discern (A/B/X) and other methods, I go with those mostly. However, I never go "all in" as in horseshit or not-horseshit. Either of those risk stupid dogmatic mistakes. Go by what you can hear until you hear otherwise because it is silly to demand one be always true and the other always not, there is ALWAYS gray area somewhere under some unconsidered condition or scenario. An open mind is in the middle somewhere and doesn't feel the need to prove either in order to sleep at night.

What makes ^that interesting is that the above will often make each person on a particular side think I'm siding on the other but I'm not. Humans want things they can rely upon 100% of the time by nature.
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Old 01-17-2015, 07:30 PM   #88
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I'm no scientist but that is the approach I take. IOW, of the things I can discern (A/B/X) and other methods, I go with those mostly. However, I never go "all in" as in horseshit or not-horseshit. Either of those risk stupid dogmatic mistakes. Go by what you can hear until you hear otherwise because it is silly to demand one be always true and the other always not, there is ALWAYS gray area somewhere under some unconsidered condition or scenario. An open mind is in the middle somewhere and doesn't feel the need to prove either in order to sleep at night.

What makes ^that interesting is that the above will often make each person on a particular side think I'm siding on the other but I'm not. Humans want things they can rely upon 100% of the time by nature.
I completely agree

I stop after "the evidence suggests this". To then say "and that proves it and anyone who thinks differently is an idiot" is completely against the scientific method.

BUT (there's always a but), what you can say with some certainty is if an opinion is clearly proven false by sufficient evidence. The trouble is, many people don't know the difference between an absence of evidence and evidence to the contrary of an opinion. Just because there is a lack of evidence for an opinion, that does not automatically make it false.

Then again, I'm sure much of it has more to do with enjoying an argument than championing empiricism. People are funny like that
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Old 01-18-2015, 04:26 AM   #89
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Go by what you can hear until you hear otherwise because it is silly to demand one be always true and the other always not...
This is fine. But the confusion is: two different, but interwined, conversations we are having at the same time (in this and similar threads). You are talking about personal taste.

The one I am interested in, is about facts and scientific evidence. Because many would use personal preference and experience, to try and reach factual scientific conclusions (happened on this thread too)... this is not the way it is done.

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Just because there is a lack of evidence for an opinion, that does not automatically make it false.
Nor does it make it true

But then again, "opinion" is a different thing. Opinion only has to feel comfortable to the host.... doesn't even need to be true or based on anything real.
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Old 01-18-2015, 07:57 AM   #90
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You are talking about personal taste.
What I'm saying has nothing to do with taste and everything to do with the decision of reacting to such dogmatic approaches on either side; that's a red flag. I called out the determination not the result. It doesn't have to be false in order for someone to be dogmatic about it. I'm surely the geeky/science type but I'm open minded enough to leave room to be wrong (somewhere in the future) about the proven stuff, that only makes sense which is what Judders was saying.

If you are so strict with yourself that the absolute scientific is all that can ever matter to you, and nothing else will ever be discovered in the entirety of the future of this universe, ever, feel free, that's cool. Otherwise...

Relax.
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Old 01-19-2015, 06:37 AM   #91
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I am more curious about *why* don't they null as they should. How was this test done?
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:02 AM   #92
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I am more curious about *why* don't they null as they should. How was this test done?
I suppose subtle differences in the code? Even though audio summing is supposedly straightforward, there can be variations among DAWs. Perhaps it's the panning laws, or some subtle processing going on behind the scenes (dithering? "analog warmth-ness"? who knows...).
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:03 AM   #93
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To quote Bob Olhsson:

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I have no idea where this -18 myth that seems now to be treated as some kind of "law" came from but it really doesn't reflect how professional gear was ever used in the real world.

Something else people don't realize is that the VU meter was never intended to be used without a clip indicator light. Many audio manufacturers cheaped out by supplying inexpensive non-spec VU meters with no peak indicators at all beginning in the 1960s which added greatly to the confusion. Then Sony cheaped out with their digital peak meters and all of the lemmings followed them right over the cliff of utterly useless program metering.

Gain staging is simply operating everything within the sweet spot between noise and distortion.
Of course, that still won't stop thousands of people from "setting all their tracks to -18". "Gain staging" is all the rage now... all the cool kids do it.
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Old 01-28-2015, 05:03 PM   #94
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To quote Bob Olhsson:



Of course, that still won't stop thousands of people from "setting all their tracks to -18". "Gain staging" is all the rage now... all the cool kids do it.
I'd love to do some gain staging... haven't done a null test either... feel like an amateur... null tests... will it ever happen? Damn, I gonna do a null test one day... yeah, how about that?!
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Old 01-29-2015, 12:43 AM   #95
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Of course, that still won't stop thousands of people from "setting all their tracks to -18". "Gain staging" is all the rage now... all the cool kids do it.
C'mon Lawrence. It's so much EASIER to mix with proper levels from the start (not to speak of using Nebula). Peace.
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Old 01-29-2015, 08:48 AM   #96
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C'mon Lawrence. It's so much EASIER to mix with proper levels from the start (not to speak of using Nebula). Peace.
That has nothing to do with what I quoted. "Proper levels" does not equate to the internet myth of the "-18 rule".

If you take issue with the quoted text, take it up with Bob, a professional audio engineer of vast experience, not me. Again, try to focus on the last line of his quote. "Gain Staging" is not some mystical or magical thing assigned to some specific number, it's simply...

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...operating everything within the sweet spot between noise and distortion.

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Old 01-29-2015, 08:58 AM   #97
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...operating everything within the sweet spot between noise and distortion.
But isn't that where -18 came from, aka if you averaged all prosumer device specs out there what would be the +/- 3dB avg range? Don't go nuclear, I know it's just a reference, simple curiosity.

If it falls anywhere near -18, then it becomes "sweet spot" for non-pros but my guess is the avg is right about there and -15.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:01 AM   #98
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But isn't that where -18 came from, aka if you averaged all prosumer devices out there what would be the +/- 3dB avg range? Don't go nuclear, I know it's just a reference, simple curiosity.

If it falls anywhere near -18, then it becomes "sweet spot".
Again, take it up with Bob, the quote. That wasn't me talking there. I quoted him because he's not me.

The thread title is "DAW Myths". He considers that a myth, so I quoted him saying that.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:06 AM   #99
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It's not the number that's the problem, it's the idea that the specfic number actually means something. It doesn't. The sweet spot between noise and distortion is pretty wide.

Again, take it up with Bob, the quote. That wasn't me talking there. I quoted him because he's not me.

The thread title is "DAW Myths". He considers that a myth, so I quoted him saying that.
I know its bob and he also said "I don't know where it comes from" but I figured it out pretty quickly, go figure. The point is that it doesn't need to mean anything if it gets someone not in the know anywhere close to that range and if many/most/lots of devices use that reference I don't see the problem suggesting it as a starting point. AFAIK that is exactly where it came from. Cold hard rule, no, consider starting here if it agrees with your device, yes. I truly don't understand the anger on both sides of the fence here, if it is just a reference, it can be used as such where it applies.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:09 AM   #100
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Well, yeah. I know where it came from too, Gearslutz.

It took years for many people using the "rule" to even understand the difference between RMS and Peak, as many of them had no clue and were arguing about it while setting all of their peaks to -18.

But that's where it came from, Gearslutz. It didn't come from hobbyists learning their gear and coming to some logical conclusion on their own, it came from reading it somewhere and completely misapplying it.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:12 AM   #101
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Well, yeah. I know where it came from too, Gearslutz.

It took years for many people using the "rule" to even understand the difference between RMS and Peak, as many of them had no clue and were arguing about it while setting all of their peaks to -18.

But that's where it came from, Gearslutz. It didn't come from hobbyists learning their gear and coming to some logical conclusion on their own, it came from reading it somewhere and completely misapplying it.
I got it from the specs of my last 4 sound cards. Guess who taught me to look there about 5 years ago? You. I don't care about GS, what I care about is not ruining the value it does have due to GS and those who despise whatever is over there. I have no idea about this GS thread(s) tbh.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:16 AM   #102
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I got it from the specs of my last 4 sound cards. Guess who taught me to look there about 5 years ago? You.
Come on Karbo, you know what I mean. The people on the net pushing that "rule" as something critical did not learn it from a sound card manual and most of them still don't even really understand it.

A "general reference level" or converter calibration level is not the same as a literal "mixing rule". You, being the good engineer you are, already know that.

I've never read a sound card manual telling anyone to set the RMS levels of 48 tracks to -18 like some science experiment before they mix. Try to focus on what he actually said...

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...rule that seems now to be treated as some kind of "law"
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:20 AM   #103
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Come on Karbo, you know what I mean. The people on the net pushing that "rule" as something critical did not learn it from a sound card manual and most of them still don't even really understand it.

A "general reference level" is not the same as a literal "mixing rule". You, being the good engineer you are, already know that.

I've never read a sound card manual telling anyone to set the RMS levels of 48 tracks to -18 like some science experiment before they mix.
I know exactly what you mean and no argument with you but again, if we forget about GS and the mission to stamp out mixing rules and folklore, we do have some value in that number. My frustration is that even though it tends to be the avg reference SCs use, it is banned to be used because that value immediately goes to the witch burning from the GS fiasco. That's a bummer because what value it does have goes by the wayside.

I might feel better about it if those who freak out about it also took the time to include the right explanations, again, not you, just trying to separate it from the GS baggage. As far as those who cling to it like a mantra rule etc. that's their problem.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:23 AM   #104
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I suppose subtle differences in the code? Even though audio summing is supposedly straightforward, there can be variations among DAWs. Perhaps it's the panning laws, or some subtle processing going on behind the scenes (dithering? "analog warmth-ness"? who knows...).
Evan thanks for the answer.

Well, if its different panning laws, different dithering or some kind of added distortion, then the test is comparing oranges with apples. It wont null, but it could not null (or else something would be very wrong with either daw).
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:25 AM   #105
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Fair enough Karbo.

I'm mostly puzzled why - anyone doing their own recording and mixing - has to adjust tracks they recorded in post... as opposed to just recording in a good range to begin with.

I understand getting other people's tracks or stems and maybe trimming hot tracks down to a reasonable range before mixing, we all do that, but I don't understand recording your own tracks in a bad range and then trimming them back to a good range in post.

And what do you set to -18? The chorus or the verse? There's often about 8-9 db of dynamic range difference between them.

I understand what Bob means about all that.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:31 AM   #106
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Fair enough.

I'm mostly puzzled why - anyone doing their own recording and mixing - has to adjust tracks they recorded in post... as opposed to just recording in a good range to begin with.

I understand getting other people's tracks and trimming hot tracks to a reasonable range, but I don't understand recording your own tracks in a bad range and then trimming them back to a good range in post.
I don't know, I just know that if I record in a good range, it shows up in the -18 RMS range in the DAW (but I'm not going to shit a brick if it shows up as -14 LOL). At least it's true for the SCs I have had anyway. I honestly know nothing about the GS stuff, never go there, I literally found my mention of it from specs and real world use.

I can say however anytime I share it I get yelled at with mentions of GS which is always frustrating, again not you, just an observation from the past.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:34 AM   #107
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Well, yeah. In a thread about audio myths you knew that one would show up. It doesn't mean that the pro converter calibration of -18 is a myth, it only means that people take things they don't really understand and make myths out of them.

The myth is that anyone recording in analog would - always - see the VU meter hovering at or near zero. We all who recorded analog know better than that.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:35 AM   #108
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Well, yeah. In a thread about audio myths you knew that one would show up. It doesn't mean that the pro converter calibration of -18 is a myth, it only means that people take things they don't really understand and make myths out of them.
Good point.
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