Guitar buzz/hum 🎧

[superblonde.org]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

How a about a foot pad? A piece of perf board (or whatever) with a piece of wire soldered to it and an alligator clip at the other end that clips to anything grounded on the guitar.

you dont ever want to use a footpad for grounding. that would mean the current is traveling from your hand and inside your body to eventually reach your foot... Through your heart, and other organs, and that is very very bad.

there have been stories about guitarists getting electro'ed on stage but what saved them was the fact that the guitarist was not grounded because they were wearing thick rubber stomping boots- thus the current couldn't travel through them to cause harm- this is why birds sitting on high-voltage wires don't fry, because they don't discharge that voltage through to the ground. this is also why guitarists playing outdoors on a damp or rainy stage need to be much more careful than in dry conditions.

the original suggestion to (worst case) connect a ground wire cable to the WRIST is the good one because the fingers would come into contact with voltage at the strings or the hand at the bridge, and that voltage would be discharged at the wrist just a few inches away, so the voltage would only go through the hand itself, which has no complex organs, therefore is relatively safe way of grounding (especially assuming the ground wire has very high resistance like professional wrist ground straps have, thus limits the current yet allows the discharge quickly)


similarly, when working around higher voltages which can zap through human skin, the #1 rule is, put one hand in your pocket (so it does not touch anything) and work with only one hand, this eliminates the possibility where both hands touch something which causes a current to run directly from one arm, through the heart, to the other arm, bzzzzzzzrrrrfffff, you're in trouble or dead.

[GB99]

Just an update: I took my guitar to someone to get it checked out, and he didn't think there was anything wrong with it. I talked through the problem with him and he seemed fairly convinced that the problem was a grounding issue either with my flat, or the building. So the next step is to get an electrician in to get my flat checked, and then perhaps speak to the management agency if that doesn't work.

I've read quite a few of these threads online, and more often than not someone gets various suggestions to try to help them, but don't then report back what the problem was and how it was fixed, I intend to keep this updated until I find a solution in case it helps anyone else.

[GB99]

I heard back from the electrician who didn't think an electrician would be of any help, and suggested an isolation transformer. Guess I better get reading about them.

[superblonde.org]

originally you said,

Originally Posted by GB99

I've tried putting batteries in a portable amp and turned the electricity off, but it still persists.

if that is legit (a portable amp on batteries, not connected to AC, still has the same hum) then an isolation transformer is not going to help.

[karbomusic]

But they also said this...

The only thing that seems to have an affect on the sound is the position of the guitar in the room - there seems to be some quiet spots.

Which is pickups being antennas (RF) or pickups (EMF) which they are, the only real recourse is to remove the source of the EMF/RF or move the guitar away from it. However, as asked previously, this should be less period if humbuckers.

That said, even when it is pretty bad, it's often due to having a lot of gain.

[GB99]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

But they also said this...

I hope you don't take this as being in any way disrespectful, but I think you are mixing up two different people with different problems in this thread

[GB99]

Originally Posted by superblonde.org

if that is legit (a portable amp on batteries, not connected to AC, still has the same hum) then an isolation transformer is not going to help.

Legit as in did it happen? -if so, yes that's what happened.

Well, at least that will save me some reading!

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by GB99

I hope you don't take this as in any way disrespectful, but I think you are mixing up two different people with diffent problems in this thread

You are right and I don't LOL. I thought you were the original poster. I'll review your replies again when I can.

However... I replied to your ask before, and don't remember those items I asked about being answered, let me check to see but much of what I've been saying still applies such as...

Did you mention as brainwreck asked, does it change when you move the angle of the guitar?

And does it change if you use humbuckers in case I missed. It's possible that pickups really are antennas and that your other attempts are failing because of what I'm trying to explain is accidentally being overlooked

[GB99]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

You are right and I don't LOL. I thought you were the original poster. I'll review your replies again when I can.

That's very kind of you.

Originally Posted by karbomusic

However... I replied to your ask before, and don't remember those items I asked about being answered, let me check to see but much of what I've been saying still applies (until I see if you've updated since). AKA this...



And does it change when you move the angle of the guitar (in case I missed).

That post also mixed up me with someone else

It changes a little bit when I move around, but doesn't really go away.

[GB99]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

And does it change if you use humbuckers in case I missed. It's possible that pickups really are antennas and that your other attempts are failing because of what I'm trying to explain is accidentally being overlooked

I missed your edit. It does not change with humbuckers.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by GB99

That's very kind of you.



That post also mixed up me with someone else

It changes a little bit when I move around, but doesn't really go away.

Brainwreck asked angle of guitar when replying to you in post #20, that's what made me mention it to begin with when I replied to you in post 31. However, the two big questions I cared about were...

1. Does it reduce with humbuckers (if you have them).
2. Does it reduce when moving the angle of the guitar (just answered above).

Regarding #2, that ask isn't about whether it goes away, it's about whether it changes because if it gets better/worse based on angle then that's clearly the flux lines of the pickups interacting with something in the air and so on aka being picked up by pickups.

Regarding #1, if #2 is true, humbuckers should show less or little noise because the cancellation they provide is exactly from what the pickups would pickup up in the air. Which takes us back to my original point, 95% of the time the only fix is to remove/reduce the source of the interference.

Lastly if the above is the issue, that's precisely why all these other measures aren't helping, that's what I'm trying to get into the realization.

[GB99]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Brainwreck asked angle of guitar when replying to you in post #20, that's what made me mention it to begin with when I replied to you in post 31. However, the two big questions I cared about were...

1. Does it reduce with humbuckers (if you have them).
2. Does it reduce when moving the angle of the guitar (just answered above).

Regarding #2, that ask isn't about whether it goes away, it's about whether it changes because if it gets better/worse based on angle then that's clearly the flux lines of the pickups interacting with something in the air and so on aka being picked up by pickups.

Regarding #1, if #2 is true, humbuckers should show less or little noise because the cancellation they provide is exactly from what the pickups would pickup up in the air. Which takes us back to my original point, if that's the issue, 95% of the time the only fix is to remove/reduce the source of the interference.

Lastly if the above is the issue, that's precisely why all these other measures aren't helping, that's what I'm trying to get into the realization.

Sorry if I missed anything, in hindsight I probably should have started my own thread instead of hijacking somebody else's.

I have a Yamaha pacifica 611 with a coil tap for humbucker/single coil, and it doesn't seem to make any difference.

I really appreciate your help, thanks.

[DVDdoug]

Since guitars & guitar amps always* seem to have some hum/buzz, I was just wondering if pro studios are shielded and Google found this:

Lots of recording studios are built top to bottom as Faraday cages for this reason...

In that case they weren't discussing AC hum but a "cage" will help with low frequencies as well as RF.


In the old days, they may have used lead to help with the soundproofing and that would also keep-out electrical interference.


If you stick the guitar amp inside the "cage" you'd be letting some AC in but the sources and amount of electromagnetic radiation should still be less.








* Maybe that's not true... Maybe I don't notice when it's not humming, but it seems that way...

[karbomusic]

^Other than my cellphone/wireless not working, I've considered making my mix room/office a Faraday cage using metallic paint.

https://www.amazon.com/Shielding-Sol.../dp/B007A0RTES

The problem these days though is for many people the EMF is in the room itself aka computers etc. Would still block a lot of stuff though.

[ashcat_lt]

I had half a plan while back to build the entire mix room on DC current. At the time that would have meant modifying any number of hardware units to bypass or externalize their in-built supplies. Would also probably have been like automotive lighting since LED was a lot more expensive back then.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by GB99

Sorry if I missed anything, in hindsight I probably should have started my own thread instead of hijacking somebody else's.

It's all good. The biggest issue I see in such threads is that almost all guitars 'pickup' some noise, that problem grows with how much gain is used - so when someone asks about guitars and noise, it can be a whole lot of work only for it to be part of the nature of guitars - while at the same time never really knowing when that's the issue or something more curable. I can tell you it has gotten much worse in the last 20 years due to the explosion of technology, computers, wireless phones and switching power supplies and so on.

I've played guitars now for crap, 38 years to be exact so there is a lot of noise I either accept or know how to deal with at this point - But I can never know that or to what extent with those who post and ask. Much of the time, once we address the "big" three or four causes, and nothing helps, we are inching closer to it being because it's a guitar.

[GB99]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

It's all good. The biggest issue I see in such threads is that almost all guitars 'pickup' some noise, that problem grows with how much gain is used - so when someone asks about guitars and noise, it can be a whole lot of work only for it to be part of the nature of guitars - while at the same time never really knowing when that's the issue or something more curable. I can tell you it has gotten much worse in the last 20 years due to the explosion of technology, computers, wireless phones and switching power supplies and so on.

I've played guitars now for crap, 38 years to be exact so there is a lot of noise I either accept or know how to deal with at this point - But I can never know that or to what extent with those who post and ask. Much of the time, once we address the "big" three of four causes, and nothing helps, we are inching closer to it being because it's a guitar.

Well I certainly can't complete with 38 years of playing, that's almost as long as I've been alive for!

That said, I have been playing for 25 years and done a few hundred gigs, so I have no doubt that this is not the sort of noise that can just be the nature of the beast with guitars sometimes.

Edit: nearly forgot to mention, I attached an audio clip in post 19 if you want to hear it.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by GB99

Well I certainly can't complete with 38 years of playing, that's almost as long as I've been alive for!

That said, I have been playing for 25 years and done a few hundred gigs, so I have no doubt that this is not the sort of noise that can just be the nature of the beasts with guitars sometimes.

I listened to your sample... The first 1/2 sounds exactly like your normal interference (I can instantly get that with every strat I own ). The crackling I have no idea, almost sounds like there is DC on the line but not quite. The way it fades away sounds like a gate at first, or the angle of the guitar changed etc. That's one of those demos where seeing a video probably helps, not that you should do one, it's just when I hear some of that it makes me wish I was also looking.

[GB99]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

I listened to your sample... The first 1/2 sounds exactly like your normal interference (I can instantly get that with every strat I own ). The crackling I have no idea, almost sounds like there is DC on the line but not quite. The way it fades away sounds like a gate at first, or the angle of the guitar changed etc. That's one of those demos where seeing a video probably helps, not that you should do one, it's just when I hear some of that it makes me wish I was also looking.

Forgive my ignorance, but if it's normal interference how come it stops when I touch the metal part of the jack lead? -I’ve never experienced that before getting this issue.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by GB99

Forgive my ignorance, but if it's normal interference how come it stops when I touch the metal part of the jack lead? -I’ve never experienced that before getting this issue.

I'm sorry, I didn't hear it stop when touching jack ring since I can't see it. I just hear it fade out, touch strings, then crackling. I'm at work so maybe not paying enough attention so I'm going to step back until I can pay attention lol.

[GB99]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

I'm sorry, I didn't hear it stop when touching jack ring since I can't see it. I just hear it fade out, touch strings, then crackling. I'm at work so maybe not paying enough attention so I'm going to step back until I can pay attention lol.

My fault, I haven't been explaining things well enough.

I do not touch the jack lead in the audio clip, I mentioned it in a post.

The crackling is from me turning my volume and tone pots, as I thought it related to the problem. But the technician I saw today gave them a good wiggling, and believed that should sort them. A bit of an unintentional red herring on my part, I’m afraid.

You've really been very helpful, and have my gratitude.

(Edited due to grammatical pedantry)

[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by GB99

Forgive my ignorance, but if it's normal interference how come it stops when I touch the metal part of the jack lead? -I’ve never experienced that before getting this issue.

Because the barrel of the plug is grounded at the amp. YOU make a bunch of noise, and more importantly you collect a lot of the EM noise in the air around you and focus it right there as close to the guitar as you can get, and when you ground yourself, that noise bypasses your signal path.


The fact that it goes away when you touch that cable, but NOT when you touch the strings is yet another indicator that the strings aren't properly grounded.

[DVDdoug]

...I've also wondered why somebody hasn't "done something" about it!


The pick-up is a pick-up and it has to be high-impedance, but a transformer could be added right at the pickup (a built-in DI with a low-impedance-balanced output). That would reduce all of the other noise sources, including ground loops.


That would require a new standard for guitar amps but a company like Fender could do it, or any guitar manufacturer could partner-up with an amp manufacturer if they don't make amps already.


Or with more "modern technology", how about a built-in wireless digital transmitter? I don't get why someone doesn't make a guitar with a built-in transmitter...

[GB99]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

Because the barrel of the plug is grounded at the amp. YOU make a bunch of noise, and more importantly you collect a lot of the EM noise in the air around you and focus it right there as close to the guitar as you can get, and when you ground yourself, that noise bypasses your signal path.

Well that is interesting and I don't doubt you're correct, I'm just not sure what to do about it. In fact I have noticed that I’ve been much more prone to static shocks since I moved here, which I guess could be part of the problem?

I know brainwreck suggested a ground strap, but when I mentioned this to the guitar technician today he didn't seem to think there was any point. He explained why, but to be honest it went over my head.

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

The fact that it goes away when you touch that cable, but NOT when you touch the strings is yet another indicator that the strings aren't properly grounded.

Forgive my extraordinary ignorance, but are you saying that in fact there is still a problem with the grounding on the guitar itself afterall? -it's just that I took it to a technician today who didn't think there is any problem with it, or are you referring to something else?

Please forgive me if I'm completely misunderstanding your post, I really am hopeless with this stuff.

[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by DVDdoug

...I've also wondered why somebody hasn't "done something" about it!


The pick-up is a pick-up and it has to be high-impedance, but a transformer could be added right at the pickup (a built-in DI with a low-impedance-balanced output). That would reduce all of the other noise sources, including ground loops.

Been done a number of times. Les Paul Recording model among others.

That would require a new standard for guitar amps but a company like Fender could do it, or any guitar manufacturer could partner-up with an amp manufacturer if they don't make amps already.

But how does that help the rest of us? If you can't plug your new guitar into your old pedals, or the amp you've known and loved for years, or the fancy new thing that your favorite freak is using, you're not going to buy that guitar.


More to the point, guitarists as a group are so conservative about gear that we should actually call them reactionary. According to most, the greatest tone ever was created like 60 years ago and good tone can only be achieved using exactly that same outdated technology. Everybody knows that changing anything at all to a modern equivalent will ruin your tone completely and you'll never get any chicks. In short, it ain't gonna change because nobody will ever buy it.

Or with more "modern technology", how about a built-in wireless digital transmitter? I don't get why someone doesn't make a guitar with a built-in transmitter...

Beyond what I just said above, it's mostly because batteries in guitars suck.

[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by GB99

Please forgive me if I'm completely misunderstanding your post, I really am hopeless with this stuff.

Unless I misunderstood your post, you talked to this person. They didn't use a meter or open it up to take a look. Frankly, if you told them what you've told us and they didn't think there was a ground problem in the guitar itself, then they don't know wtf they're talking talking about and you should not go back.


Touching the strings of your guitar should do exactly the same thing as touching the barrel of the plug because they should be connected by straight wire and therefor essentially the same thing as far as the electrons are concerned. If it doesn't, then they're not, and that's your problem. Or at least part of it.

[GB99]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

Unless I misunderstood your post, you talked to this person. They didn't use a meter or open it up to take a look. Frankly, if you told them what you've told us and they didn't think there was a ground problem in the guitar itself, then they don't know wtf they're talking talking about and you should not go back.


Touching the strings of your guitar should do exactly the same thing as touching the barrel of the plug because they should be connected by straight wire and therefor essentially the same thing as far as the electrons are concerned. If it doesn't, then they're not, and that's your problem. Or at least part of it.

Thank you very much for your advice. You have not misunderstood my post as what you describe is what happened; he plugged it in and turned up the gain to see if he could hear anything, but he did not look in the back of the guitar. I will take it into someone else to get a second opinion. Thanks again.

[superblonde.org]

"if that is legit (a portable amp on batteries, not connected to AC, still has the same hum) then an isolation transformer is not going to help."

Originally Posted by GB99

Legit as in did it happen? -if so, yes that's what happened.

then it is RF interference, not from the AC line. However, the audio clip sounds like AC hum (50 or 60 hz). Which is odd. That is not going to be due to computers or wall warts for electronic gear which are all switching supplies and generate high-frequency-squeal most of the time, not AC hum.

if you are in a flat (aka apartment), consider what you have around which has a motor inside it, and the transformer + motor + electronics could be old and going bad. For example, a refrigerator. or bad ballasts in overhead florescent lights. old ballasts are dangerous & can cause fires by shorting without notice. replacing them with switching versions is a good upgrade.

but if it is thru the walls, all that is harder.

I suggest again replacing the guitar cable with a well-shielded one, or maybe a much shorter one. Or you could try going wireless just to test going without a cable.

[superblonde.org]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

Unless I misunderstood your post, you talked to this person. They didn't use a meter or open it up to take a look. Frankly, if you told them what you've told us and they didn't think there was a ground problem in the guitar itself, then they don't know wtf they're talking talking about and you should not go back.

yeah thats exactly right. if you take a guitar to a guitar tech & explain that your knobs are crackling, he should fix the problem, not "give them a good wiggling".

guitar techs are not formally trained or formally educated so sometimes it is a mixed bag going to them. find a good one... who will actually do the simple fix for the problem.

[superblonde.org]

Originally Posted by DVDdoug

..

The pick-up is a pick-up and it has to be high-impedance, but a transformer could be added right at the pickup (a built-in DI with a low-impedance-balanced output). That would reduce all of the other noise sources, including ground loops.

pedals are finally getting XLR-out. I use a flyrig v2 and it has XLR-out in addition to normal 1/4" out. with the XLR-out, there wouldnt be added noise.

The XLR goes into my interface, or a powered monitor, or an amp with XLR-in's, or yes a direct box to convert back to 1/4" for an old school guitar amp.

[GB99]

I've done a few more tests out of curiosity and have some more information, which I have now organised in a new thread (https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=224212).

Thanks for everyone's help here, and, if you feel so inclined, please check out the new thread. Cheers.