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Old 08-21-2019, 03:57 PM   #1
dissentuk
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Default Full size Audio Buffer being added for Every Plugin! 6 people so far

6 of 7 people i've checked with have same issue so far!



1. set your global audio buffer to 1024 and one track add 4 pro-q3 set to natural phase

2. check your track latency on Performance monitor, Pro-q3 natural phase should be 320 samples delay each so 4x320 = 1280 total delay


If PDC for track says 4096 you got a problem

If PDC for track says 1280 everythings working great! please tell us


This same thing happens with any plugins that have small PDC requirements

for example softube TLA-100 has 4 samples of delay! 4x4 = 16 total delay, but on a 1024 buffer setting it will still have 4096 total!


Please don't just say this is wrong test your own setup is working first.

fingers crossed 6 out of 7 of us are idiots and have some basic setting wrong!
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Old 08-21-2019, 04:00 PM   #2
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Not working ^^^



Working Great track 1 has 4 Pro-q3 set to natural phase ^^
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Old 08-22-2019, 06:12 AM   #3
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I was aware that REAPER align PDC to the nearest buffer size, but somehow I was thinking it does that per track, not per plug-in.
It seems like my imagination was wrong (btw that is easy to check without any special plug-in, just with ReaFIR).

I do not think that is a bug, so this thread is an FR (asked several times already).

In practice, with anticipative processing enabled, REAPER able to work well with small buffer size. I mean for DAWs which process everything in real time that could be a big issue. For REAPER it is not (huge buffer size is required on underpowered for the project or not tuned for audio system only).
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Old 08-22-2019, 06:56 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
I was aware that REAPER align PDC to the nearest buffer size, but somehow I was thinking it does that per track, not per plug-in.
It seems like my imagination was wrong (btw that is easy to check without any special plug-in, just with ReaFIR).

I do not think that is a bug, so this thread is an FR (asked several times already).

In practice, with anticipative processing enabled, REAPER able to work well with small buffer size. I mean for DAWs which process everything in real time that could be a big issue. For REAPER it is not (huge buffer size is required on underpowered for the project or not tuned for audio system only).
this seems to happen regardless of anticipative processing and regardless of underpowered computer. I only used 1024 as an example because it more obvious. same problem happens if you buffer is set to 64. You add a couple of 4 sample delay plugins and your buffer is stacked not the correct PDC

If you look at second pic above you will see this doesn't happen for everyone which Is why I suspect a bug. Also every other major daw does not handle PDC by stacking a new full buffer per plugin. they all fit it within current buffer unless PDC exceeds that size. Which is what u expect right?
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:28 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk View Post
If you look at second pic above you will see this doesn't happen for everyone which Is why I suspect a bug.
I know nothing about this issue but the above also highly fits the possibility of some setting differing between various installs/configs.
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:47 AM   #6
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Known issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
However, the situation where you have 3 plugins in series that each add 1 sample, could be improved (REAPER would add a few ASIO blocks of latency to that track, whereas the theoretical minimum latency added would still be one ASIO block).

Last edited by Dstruct; 08-22-2019 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:16 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I know nothing about this issue but the above also highly fits the possibility of some setting differing between various installs/configs.
I totally agree. Have tried so many diffrent settings but had no luck.

Also 6 out of 7 random people that have actually tested it so far have the same problem which means is probaly not just something stupid ive done to my settings(but possible)
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:55 AM   #8
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Tested with ReaComp, with some "random" latency amounts, with ASIO buffer set to 256 samples (Windows) :

Code:
ReaComp latency in samples	Total PDC for 3 instances on 1 track
8	                        768
44	                        768
88	                        768
176	                        768
352	                        1536
661	                        2304
771	                        3072
1323	                        4608
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:14 AM   #9
dissentuk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Known issue.
Great hopefully will be made to be working inline with all other daws soon!

One thing that doesnt make sense though is why was this working for one person if it hasnt been implemented? And he wasnt using a pre-release etc

Even more crazy is i actually experience this issue about 10 years ago but i only used reaper for field recordings and mixing so didnt care at the time. Which puts doubts in my mind anything is going to be done soon
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:25 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
Tested with ReaComp, with some "random" latency amounts, with ASIO buffer set to 256 samples (Windows) :

Code:
ReaComp latency in samples	Total PDC for 3 instances on 1 track
8	                        768
44	                        768
88	                        768
176	                        768
352	                        1536
661	                        2304
771	                        3072
1323	                        4608
Yeah exactly the problem. All multiples of adding full extra buffers. No two plugins fitted within a single buffer

It only takes 3 plugins in a row with 4 samples pdc each and you end up doubling the overall latency of whole project from what you would get in any other daw!
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Old 08-22-2019, 01:42 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
Tested with ReaComp, with some "random" latency amounts, with ASIO buffer set to 256 samples (Windows) :

Code:
ReaComp latency in samples    Total PDC for 3 instances on 1 track
8                            768
44                           768
88                           768
176                          768
352                         1536
661                         2304
771                         3072
1323                        4608
Did you test the actual negative delay in the audio stream or did you look at the numbers reaper writes on the screen ?
in the other thread on this issue ( -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=217874 ) I gave my tests results (using JSFX +/- delay set to -1, meaning the plugin reports a PDC of 1 sample). I used a buffer size of 1024 samples:

Code:
# of instances   claimed latency in samples  sum PDC shown by Reaper   measured latency 
1                1                           1 / 1024                  -1 
2                1+1                         1 / 2048                  -2 
3                1+1+1                       1 / 3072                  -3
4                1+1+1+1                     1 / 4096                  -4
("1 /" is the PDC for the selected plugin.)
I did the measurement as well using a saw plugin and Reaper in stop mode, as using a saw wave stored in a WAV file and Reaper in play mode.

Result: It works correct for me, but the number right of the "/" seems odd:
1) why is this number given instead of the actual sum PDC Reaper correctly applies to the track
2) it this number denotes the size of the delay-buffer Reaper somehow allocates to do the job, why dos this not stay with a single buffer size as long as the sum PDC is small enough ?

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-22-2019 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 08-22-2019, 01:53 PM   #12
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Negative delay in the audio stream? What's that?
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Old 08-22-2019, 01:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
the numbers reaper writes on the screen ?
These numbers are fine.



Simple test:

-> VSTi
-> plugin with latency
-> plugin with latency
-> plugin with latency


-> play the VSTi via external MIDI keyboard (measure delay "note played" to "sound heard")
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:02 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Negative delay in the audio stream? What's that?
In play mode:Reaper reads the media n buffers ahead of where it would read it for PDC = 0 (and - AFAIU - imposes an appropriate delay of up to one buffer size to compensate for non integer buffer multiples.

In stop mode: Reaper imposes a delay of n buffers to all 0 PDC tracks (and - AFAIU - imposes an appropriate delay of up to one buffer size to this track to compensate for non integer buffer multiples.

-Michael
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
These numbers are fine.)
What is this supposed to mean ?

Are they correctly describing .... what exactly ?
-Michael
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
What is this supposed to mean ?

Are they correctly describing .... what exactly ?
-Michael
The latency you hear with live monitoring. Other DAWs are better optimized (lower latency when you have several plugins with latency on one track).
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:13 PM   #17
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Xenakios's table would be

Code:
ReaComp latency in samples	Total PDC for 3 instances on 1 track
8	                        256
44	                        256
for the first two examples in an optimized DAW.
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
-> play the VSTi via external MIDI keyboard (measure delay "note played" to "sound heard")
This is not what PDC means.

Reaper can't do anything about the "play to hear" delay imposed by a VSTi (or a VST) in a "live" situation.

PDC means the compensation done when mixing tracks. Here the tracks not claiming any PDC are more delayed than the ones that claim a PDC.

It would be a bug if the appropriate samples would not be correctly aligned.
If more delay is imposed to the mix than necessary, it would be shortcoming that might be worth a feature request.

It seems like with a single plugin Reaper imposes a delay of a multiple of full buffers to the non PDC tracks and a latency of less than one buffer to the PDC track. I doubt that this can easily be improved.

You seem to claim in the other thread that when using multiple plugins in a row more full-buffer delays than necessary are imposed. This indeed might be a glitch.

-Michael
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:21 PM   #19
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Known issue confirmed by Justin (REAPER adding too much latency, not optimized latency):


Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
However, the situation where you have 3 plugins in series that each add 1 sample, could be improved (REAPER would add a few ASIO blocks of latency to that track, whereas the theoretical minimum latency added would still be one ASIO block).
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:26 PM   #20
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Ahh. The said "glitch". Did Justin provide any hope for an improvement ?

Until then:
For live playing
- don't use multiple plugins that claim a nonzero PDC in a row
- use sort enough buffers.

-Michael
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:29 PM   #21
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Just got a work around from "srdmusic" in another post......

On each track turn of PDC individually from each plugin calculate yourself what the PDC of them should add up to. Insert JS Time Adjustment Delay and set the additional delay amount to -X amount of spls which is what ever you calculated

Do a quick null test and you will see everything is lined up perfectly! with perfect low latency

Now reaper can do what every other daw does automatically!



Heres An Example.....

I had 256 global buffer setting and added 5 vsts to one track with a 8 samples of delay each, So total was 5 x 8 = 40 samples

set JS delay to -40 samples and all is good track has 256 PDC in performance monitor.


Without the workaround you get 1024 PDC in track with 768 of "unwanted" PDC
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:32 PM   #22
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Nice workaround !
I think I will add a reference to this in the "Live" subforum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk View Post
"unwanted" PDC
Unwanted total mix audio output delay. The PDC ("compensation") itself is correct.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-22-2019 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:36 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Known issue confirmed by Justin (REAPER adding too much latency, not optimized latency):
when you say known issue do you confirmed in this quote from 10 years ago? or confirmed after recent posts?

Reason is Reaper is literally the perfect DAW for me apart from this. and If I know a fix is in the works even if its a year away from now I will definitely stick with it!
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:37 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk View Post
when you say known issue do you confirmed in this quote from 10 years ago? or confirmed after recent posts?
Does it matter? Issue still exists ...
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Nice workaround !
I think I will add a reference to this in the "Live" subforum.


Unwanted total mix audio output delay. The PDC ("compensation") itself is correct.

-Michael
Im shocked!! we are talking about exactly the same thing and you are 100% correct my friend!

we have come a long way together!
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:42 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Does it matter? Issue still exists ...
well Justin acknowledging it 10 years ago and doing absolutely nothing about it for 10 years is a very different outcome from hes just been made aware again and is probably going to do something about it!
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:43 PM   #27
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I guess it's just lower priority + maybe not that easy to fix ...
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:47 PM   #28
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does the scripting in reaper have access to latency the plugins are reporting on each track?

Reaper is such good daw im literally willing to try and make a script to get around this if its possible!

"edit"
checked it out theres no function in reapers API that lets you get a reported latency of a vst on a track so is a no go for automated script fix

Last edited by dissentuk; 08-22-2019 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:50 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
I guess it's just lower priority + maybe not that easy to fix ...
your probably right 2bh, its definitely a fundamental of how pdc is implemented in all other daws, so should be high priority I would have hoped
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Old 08-22-2019, 03:06 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Known issue confirmed by Justin (REAPER adding too much latency, not optimized latency):
How did one person not experience this issue and posted a screenshot to me of there performance monitor showing correct optimised PDC? (see pic below)



This is the sole reason I move this to bug report from the feature request forum

Last edited by dissentuk; 08-22-2019 at 03:09 PM. Reason: added pic
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:47 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk View Post
Im shocked!! we are talking about exactly the same thing and you are 100% correct my friend! we have come a long way together!
I am kind of critical about wording. The PDC ("Delay Compensation") is correct. So this is not a bug, but a shortcoming.

-Michael
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Old 08-22-2019, 11:00 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
I am kind of critical about wording. The PDC ("Delay Compensation") is correct. So this is not a bug, but a shortcoming.

-Michael
Yes i agree about the pdc itself being corrent.

With regard to being a bug or shortcoming why does it appear to be working fine for one person? If it was the same for everyone your right it would have to be a shortcoming. (See my post above for pic of this)
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:21 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk View Post
With regard to being a bug or shortcoming why does it appear to be working fine for one person?
It depends on the way Reaper is used. See my comment here -> https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...59&postcount=4
-Michael
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Old 11-17-2019, 02:25 PM   #34
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Wow, this is an absolut deal-breaker.

I usually have a lot of hardware playing live through my daw with plugins and hardware inserts.
I replaced my analog console with this workflow 10 years ago. With Logic it was never really an issue.

I think i can not switch to Reaper if there is no automatic workaround for this.
I can't do it by hand everytime i switch, add or remove a plugin. This is terrible!
How can this be a known issue for the past 10 years and not get fixed???
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Old 11-17-2019, 04:10 PM   #35
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The (AFAIK only) known issue in question is, that more PDC related delay then necessary is imposed to the whole project in case you use multiple PDC requesting VST plugins in a row in the same track.

If you want to do a setup for live playing, it's very likely that it's better to switch off PDC handling completely, as you supposedly want more to hear everything as soon as possible rather than to have a perfect alignment of multiple tracks.

Unfortunately you need to switch off PDC handling for each single track, as there is no global setting for this.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 11-17-2019 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 11-17-2019, 05:55 PM   #36
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At some point in the next 3 months we will likely address some of this (applying PDC at the FX chain level rather than at the FX instance level). Stay tuned!
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Old 11-17-2019, 06:15 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
At some point in the next 3 months we will likely address some of this (applying PDC at the FX chain level rather than at the FX instance level). Stay tuned!
This is awesome news.
Thanks Justin!
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:00 AM   #38
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This is great !

But in this special case (live playing) IMHO this is not relevant, as switching off PDC handling is the better alternative, anyway. (Having a global project option for this would be advantageos.)

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 11-18-2019 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 11-18-2019, 01:03 AM   #39
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Yes, having a global option for disabling PDC across all tracks would be good to have.
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:02 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yes, having a global option for disabling PDC across all tracks would be good to have.
Noted A project setting, I imagine, would be the most appropriate.
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