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Old 11-18-2019, 09:09 AM   #41
cfillion
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A way to toggle PDC for JS and AU plugins, not only VST ones, would be good to have too.
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:58 AM   #42
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That is a great catch indeed, following this thread!
I see Justin has told in a next few weeks this would be "fixed" NICE.
I never noticed because i rarely work at 1024 Buffer size.
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Old 11-18-2019, 11:02 AM   #43
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Awesome, much appreciated Justin!
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Old 11-18-2019, 11:31 AM   #44
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It would of course also be great to expose all these settings via the api so we can write scripts around them .
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:01 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Noted A project setting, I imagine, would be the most appropriate.
Great stuff master Justin, re-paying some tech debt=)
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Old 11-18-2019, 01:34 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Noted A project setting, I imagine, would be the most appropriate.
Indeed - but with on/off/toggle actions, too
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Old 11-18-2019, 01:41 PM   #47
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I support this idea
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Old 11-18-2019, 02:00 PM   #48
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Yep !
Thanks !
-Michael
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Old 11-18-2019, 03:21 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Indeed - but with on/off/toggle actions, too
To avoid excessive action counts, we added a meta-action recently, which is "Action: skip next action, set CC parameter to relative +1 if action toggle state enabled, -1 if disabled, 0 if toggle state unavailable.". So if you want one particular on/off state, you can make a custom action:
  • "Action: skip next action, set CC parameter to relative +1 if action toggle state enabled, -1 if disabled, 0 if toggle state unavailable."
  • (toggle action)
  • Action: Skip next action if CC parameter <0/mid (for disable, use "Action: Skip next action if CC parameter >0/mid" to enable)
  • (toggle action again)
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:21 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Noted A project setting, I imagine, would be the most appropriate.
I cant imagine trying to get this level of support/response in cubase or pro tools great stuff thanks!

I should have done this 10 years ago

Project wide pdc on/off would be amazing for live use but.......

We still need the FX chain level pdc for the modern producers who write music with a midi keyboard(where lack of pdc can cause problems and reasonable latency still required)

These are two seperate solutions for two seperate problems.


If your doing both i dont care when they are coming im going to be a very happy bunny just knowing they are on the way!

Keep up the good work!

And thanks to everone else in the thread who gave their input
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:55 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
To avoid excessive action counts, we added a meta-action recently, which is "Action: skip next action, set CC parameter to relative +1 if action toggle state enabled, -1 if disabled, 0 if toggle state unavailable.". So if you want one particular on/off state, you can make a custom action:
  • "Action: skip next action, set CC parameter to relative +1 if action toggle state enabled, -1 if disabled, 0 if toggle state unavailable."
  • (toggle action)
  • Action: Skip next action if CC parameter <0/mid (for disable, use "Action: Skip next action if CC parameter >0/mid" to enable)
  • (toggle action again)
That also seems good!
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:41 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Noted A project setting, I imagine, would be the most appropriate.
This would be AMAZING Justin.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:55 PM   #53
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I feel it's worth adding - in some ways Reapers PDC handling is miles ahead of competitors... try loading up a bunch of linear phase EQ's on one track to generate a ridiculous 50,000 samples of PDC. In most other DAW's you will see it slows to unresponsive mess. Reaper stays surprisingly snappy and responsive

Dont' get me wrong, I'd love to see an option for handling PDC the traditional way, in fact I believe Justin's previous confirmation of this PDC issue (the one Dstruct quoted) was actually a response to one of my previous posts on this issue a month or two ago. I noticed back then that you can pack up the same chain of plugins in a chainer such as Bluecats Patchwork and it would calculate the PDC correctly, and I was questioning why Reaper couldn't do this natively.

Anyway, here's hoping it gets addressed in future.
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:44 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
I feel it's worth adding - in some ways Reapers PDC handling is miles ahead of competitors... try loading up a bunch of linear phase EQ's on one track to generate a ridiculous 50,000 samples of PDC. In most other DAW's you will see it slows to unresponsive mess. Reaper stays surprisingly snappy and responsive

Dont' get me wrong, I'd love to see an option for handling PDC the traditional way, in fact I believe Justin's previous confirmation of this PDC issue (the one Dstruct quoted) was actually a response to one of my previous posts on this issue a month or two ago. I noticed back then that you can pack up the same chain of plugins in a chainer such as Bluecats Patchwork and it would calculate the PDC correctly, and I was questioning why Reaper couldn't do this natively.

Anyway, here's hoping it gets addressed in future.
This thread does come across a bit negative but truth be told I think reaper has been well ahead of the competition for many years with its resource efficiency and forward thinking parameter modulation/multi-lane single track routing etc

Even if justin didn't get this seen to I'm still going to use reaper

for my needs I wouldn't change anything about reaper other than this one niggling pdc issue. Every other daw is just a never ending juggling act of weighing the cons against the pros.
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Old 12-07-2019, 04:09 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by dissentuk View Post
This thread does come across a bit negative but truth be told I think reaper has been well ahead of the competition for many years with its resource efficiency and forward thinking parameter modulation/multi-lane single track routing etc

Even if justin didn't get this seen to I'm still going to use reaper

for my needs I wouldn't change anything about reaper other than this one niggling pdc issue. Every other daw is just a never ending juggling act of weighing the cons against the pros.
Good for you that this is no issue for YOUR workflow.

To me this is an absolute deal breaker.
I've always had performance/latency issues with reaper. From clicks and pops to digital noise bursts to ridiculous latency.
I don't know why people say Reaper is more efficient. To me it's not.
Don't get me wrong here. Reaper is a great application with a lot of potential.
I've been testing it for two years now and even though i can't use it i bought a license and designed my own theme.
I really would like to finally do the switch. I really dig the theming options. You can really make it your own.
And even though i think there is room for improvments the theming part is phenomenal.
Unfortunately the latency induced when working with plugins is phenomenal as well.

4 PLugins in Logic = no extra latency
4 PLugins in Reaper = 4 times the latency!!
Sorry, this is a serious problem.

Switching of PDC as someone suggested is ridiculous.
That person obviously has no ide what PDC is for and why you use it.


Still not fixed in the new v6 update btw ...
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:47 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Distressor View Post
Good for you that this is no issue for YOUR workflow.

To me this is an absolute deal breaker.
I've always had performance/latency issues with reaper. From clicks and pops to digital noise bursts to ridiculous latency.
I don't know why people say Reaper is more efficient. To me it's not.
Don't get me wrong here. Reaper is a great application with a lot of potential.
I've been testing it for two years now and even though i can't use it i bought a license and designed my own theme.
I really would like to finally do the switch. I really dig the theming options. You can really make it your own.
And even though i think there is room for improvments the theming part is phenomenal.
Unfortunately the latency induced when working with plugins is phenomenal as well.

4 PLugins in Logic = no extra latency
4 PLugins in Reaper = 4 times the latency!!
Sorry, this is a serious problem.

Switching of PDC as someone suggested is ridiculous.
That person obviously has no ide what PDC is for and why you use it.


Still not fixed in the new v6 update btw ...
The new version 6 comes with a great performance improvements to me. The fact that cockos unlocked the number of simultaneous threads from 64 to 128, makes it even more stable when dealing with a larger mixing session. I normally use plugins and outboard and all runs smooth. / Acustica audio, plugin alliance, waves, elysia, etc..

I am not saying that is perfect, but for me is better than most DAWs, this , for sure, is machine related, specs and so on..

You have a couple places where you can edit your preferences to tweak to personal taste and performance wise.

Preferences / Audio / Buffering
The new track offset makes it possible to deal with outboard gear so you can print tracks matching the exact time on your session.
Disabling PDC is possible but i would not recommend. Only if you do ALWAYS the same setup and know , by measuring, all the plugins samples you are using at the specific buffer size.
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Old 12-07-2019, 08:45 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Distressor View Post
Good for you that this is no issue for YOUR workflow.

To me this is an absolute deal breaker.
I've always had performance/latency issues with reaper. From clicks and pops to digital noise bursts to ridiculous latency.
I don't know why people say Reaper is more efficient. To me it's not.
Don't get me wrong here. Reaper is a great application with a lot of potential.
I've been testing it for two years now and even though i can't use it i bought a license and designed my own theme.
I really would like to finally do the switch. I really dig the theming options. You can really make it your own.
And even though i think there is room for improvments the theming part is phenomenal.
Unfortunately the latency induced when working with plugins is phenomenal as well.

4 PLugins in Logic = no extra latency
4 PLugins in Reaper = 4 times the latency!!
Sorry, this is a serious problem.

Switching of PDC as someone suggested is ridiculous.
That person obviously has no ide what PDC is for and why you use it.


Still not fixed in the new v6 update btw ...

I do actually completely agree with you on the PDC issue! and im shocked that very few people have come across this problem for 10 years!

The only reason this is not an "absolute deal breaker" is I use another daw like ableton(now bitwig) for writing music with standard PDC implementation and then export stems when track is finished for final mixing in reaper.

it would actually be a massive improvement to my workflow if I could do all this in reaper and I cant just because of this PDC issue.

So when I saying niggling issue im just trying to be polite 2bh as this is a big deal to me.


I would have never expect this to be changed in version 6 as its way to short notice and clearly version 6 was being developed before this request got put in. Im just glad its been noted and is on the way, try getting other Daw developers to respond and confirm stuff like this! reaper has great support community and developers who actually reply back.
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Old 12-08-2019, 01:50 AM   #58
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hmm did few tests, Reaper 6.01, MacOS 10.13.6, RME HDSPe AIO,

one instance of Q3 at Natural Phase mode PDC readings at various buffers set in Reaper:

320 at 32 buffer
320 at 64
384 at 128
512 at 256
512 at 512
1024 at 1024
2048 at 2048

if I set Q3 to Zero Latency mode, there's always 0 PDC, that's what I'd use for live situation anyway,
at buffer 32 at 96kHz with 4 instances of Q3 at Zero Latency, cpu usage is about 0.52%, no big deal,

I don't get this thread though, using high buffer and expecting low latency, why?
with low buffers, PDC is correct at 320 and at overly high buffers nobody cares about PDC, or not?
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Old 12-08-2019, 02:31 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzzsmk View Post
hmm did few tests, Reaper 6.01, MacOS 10.13.6, RME HDSPe AIO,

one instance of Q3 at Natural Phase mode PDC readings at various buffers set in Reaper:

320 at 32 buffer
320 at 64
384 at 128
512 at 256
512 at 512
1024 at 1024
2048 at 2048

if I set Q3 to Zero Latency mode, there's always 0 PDC, that's what I'd use for live situation anyway,
at buffer 32 at 96kHz with 4 instances of Q3 at Zero Latency, cpu usage is about 0.52%, no big deal,

I don't get this thread though, using high buffer and expecting low latency, why?
with low buffers, PDC is correct at 320 and at overly high buffers nobody cares about PDC, or not?
The problem is many popular plugins have very small delay of around 4 samples and if your running 6 of these plugins on a track at 64 sample buffer size you will get an overall project delay of 384 sample buffer not the 64 you would expect

64 sample vs 384 is quite a noticable diffrence in playabilty

All other popular daws would keep the 4 sample x 6 plugins = 24 sample pdc within a 64 sample buffer

So any other daw would have 64 sample buffer not 384 in this situation. Which is a big deal


Edit**

This is because reaper fits only one 4 sample delayed plugin within the 64 sample project buffer. So 6 of these on a track is 64 x 6 = 384

Last edited by dissentuk; 12-08-2019 at 02:52 AM. Reason: Forgot to add the reason why!
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Old 12-08-2019, 04:01 AM   #60
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Thanks for the detailed explanation dissentuk.
I hope people start to realize now how bad this actually is.
If you're exclusively doing your mixing in Reaper it is no big deal but if you're trying to use it as a production tool for writing music with lots of hardware playing live through your DAW running quite a lot of plugins you're screwed.

This behaviour is actually not new information that just came up.
10 years ago this came up already and Justin explained how Reaper handles plugins and that it is not the best way because of the increased latency. It baffels me that it takes more than 10 years to fix this. And it still isn't.

Apparently it's coming so i can finally dump Logic and do all my composing and mixing in Reaper.
I'm really looking forward to that day. Besides a few weird things i think Reaper is awesome!
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Old 12-08-2019, 04:06 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Distressor View Post
I've always had performance/latency issues
Before discussing, you need to understand that performance issues and latency issues are very different things, and only loosely related.

Latency is something you deliberately set, either by "buffer size" in the audio interface or by using plugins that create a latency (because they are set to or because must). The plugin latency is reported to the DAW as PDC that in turn can be set to compensate this latency by applying the same latency to other threads to get them in sync.
This thread is about Reaper not doing the minimum latency for compensation in all cases, but sin some situations imposing more latency than strictly necessary, which in turn is some situation might be bad (while it mostly is at most bit annoying).

Performance issues (e.g. clicks and pops) don't result in automatically imposed latency. Thy sometimes can be cured by increasing the buffer-size depending latency. Regarding DAW performance Reaper is rumored to be one of the best DAW in the market. Hence the performance issues mostly are created by plugins.

Quote:
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4 PLugins in Logic = no extra latency
4 PLugins in Reaper = 4 times the latency!!
That is not possible.
If there is no PDC reported by the plugins, Reaper will not impose any additional latency.
If there is some PDC reported by the plugins, Reaper and Logic will not impose some additional latency to the project.
(You can check the PDC of a single plugin in Reaper's display.)
The point here is that if the PDC is greater than zero but smaller than one audio block, technically a complete audio block of latency needs to be applied to the other tracks (seemingly Logic adds just a single block if the sum of the four plugins' latency is less than a block), while Reaper will add a block's worth of latency for any plugin summing up to four in this case, which of course is not optimum. Justin did confirm the issue, and hence I am positive it will be fixed some day soon.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk View Post
im shocked that very few people have come across this problem for 10 years!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Distressor View Post
Switching of PDC as someone suggested is ridiculous.
For live playing this is not ridiculous at all. Here you want any sound as early as possible, disregarding the alignment. In an audio playback situation, the PDC is done by using appropriately earlier positions in the files, so no latency will be heard. Only e.g. when playing back Midi, these problems might arise.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 12-08-2019 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 12-08-2019, 05:25 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
That is not possible ... while Reaper will add a block's worth of latency for any plugin summing up to four in this case...
-Michael
Funny how you say it's not possible and then go on to explain why Reaper does exactly that.
I think you don't understand the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
If there is no PDC reported by the plugins, Reaper will not impose any additional latency.
-Michael
Obviously - but this is NOT what this thread is about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
For live playing this is not ridiculous at all. Here you want any sound as early as possible, disregarding the alignment. In an audio playback situation, the PDC is done by using appropriately earlier positions in the files, so no latency will be heard. Only e.g. when playing back Midi, these problems might arise.
-Michael
Again you don't get it.

I'm not recording a guitar and then start mixing that recorded audio with plugins.
I usually have around 20 synthesizers play live through the DAW with plugins.
The DAW in this case acts as a live mixing console with plugins.
Obviously i want everything to play in sync. That's what the PDC was created for. Without it it's useless.

I've been doing this for the past 15 years without much issues in Logic. You can also do it in almost any other DAW except Reaper.
Of course there will be some latency but with a small buffer it's manageable.

Reaper offers some unique features that i really like and that's why i'd love to switch.
Unfortunately at the moment that is not an option. Good thing this will be fixed soon.

For mixing only - what i suspect is what you use it for - this whole issue is not an issue .
Peace
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Old 12-08-2019, 07:49 AM   #63
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Yes this is the single most annoying thing about Reaper and I'm hopeful it will be solved. It's tiring to keep arguing with plugin developers that even "just" 1-3 samples of latency is not good enough
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Old 12-08-2019, 08:01 AM   #64
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Yes. It's also related to this issue I believe - https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=228268

The combination of latent plugins and complex routing makes for a CPU crushing, laggy experience. This is especially frustrating as many of us will use these heavy plugins on a folder/bus track SPECIFICALLY to save CPU, because it means we can load it once instead of 10 times.
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Old 12-08-2019, 08:27 AM   #65
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Hi Distressor I would not bother arguing with mschnell!

What you will find in the end is mschnell is actually incredibly knowledgeable and almost always technically correct and is just trying to be helpful and making sure the correct language is being used to describe exactly is happening.

mschnell definitely means no ill will.

The downside is your problem is not a problem for mschnells workflow and you will spend way to many messages "debating" before u realise all this like I did in another thread lol

A global PDC disable is what mschnell requires which is very essential for any live recording/playing but a different problem
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Old 12-08-2019, 08:36 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Distressor View Post
Funny how you say it's not possible and then go on to explain why Reaper does exactly that.
What is not possible is the difference between no and much, what is possible is the difference between some and (too) much.

Obviously you failed to understand the explanation about this.

...

regarding "modern" plugins with only some "4" samples PDC, it in fact will not be noticeable if PDC is switched off. But for greater PDC this sometimes might make a difference.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 12-08-2019 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 12-08-2019, 08:46 AM   #67
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Thanks ! (Even though I do remember having been technically on error several times )

I do see that this problem exists and is severe in certain situations and not trying to turn it down. Neither did Justin. Just saying it hits only in certain cases and that it supposedly is not that high on his priority list.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 12-08-2019 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 12-08-2019, 10:00 AM   #68
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Hi dissentuk,

I remember reading through the other thread some time ago where you were caught in a loop of nonsens.
He didn't get it there either and i don't want it to happen here again. So i won't argue any further .
I just don't understand why someone who apparently has no issue with this even needs to argue about it that much.
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Old 12-08-2019, 01:52 PM   #69
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... because I do know that a solution only can be found when the exact reasons and circumstances of a problem are clear.

-Michael
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Old 12-10-2019, 12:01 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
To avoid excessive action counts, we added a meta-action recently, which is "Action: skip next action, set CC parameter to relative +1 if action toggle state enabled, -1 if disabled, 0 if toggle state unavailable.". So if you want one particular on/off state, you can make a custom action:
  • "Action: skip next action, set CC parameter to relative +1 if action toggle state enabled, -1 if disabled, 0 if toggle state unavailable."
  • (toggle action)
  • Action: Skip next action if CC parameter <0/mid (for disable, use "Action: Skip next action if CC parameter >0/mid" to enable)
  • (toggle action again)
Could we have this for the MIDI editor action section too?

edit:
I think I misunderstood.
This is to make one way actions from toggle actions, right?
I was looking for the other way round.
E.g. Toggle swing grid, we only have one way actions currently (Set grid type to straight/swing).

Last edited by nofish; 12-10-2019 at 12:13 PM.
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