Automation item pre-release thread

[airon]

Area selection can make some bits of your editing less complicated visually. It took me a while to get over not having this easier method of range selection.


We need to keep in mind that the multi-tool of Protools is just as complicated as what we can do in Reaper, though Reaper can go much further. Protools does make it easier to have just an area selection. It's the old single-tool workflow you can call up with hitting the key F7. Go back to multi-tool with a combination of two of F6 to F8. That's complicated too to be honest. It is less complicated than what Reaper offers with its actions to change mouse modifiers. How many use those ?


The real downside to Reapers current capabilities for me is the complete lack of multi-track selection of envelopes. It's also very tedious and slow to get the same parameter to show up on all the tracks. Protools solved this by holding a modifier while you picked an envelope to show from the dropdown.


My suggestion would be to refine the visual display of the item+time selection method. Highlight more of what the effective selection is, as hard as that may seem with all the colouring options we have.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by airon

The real downside to Reapers current capabilities for me is the complete lack of multi-track selection of envelopes. It's also very tedious and slow to get the same parameter to show up on all the tracks. Protools solved this by holding a modifier while you picked an envelope to show from the dropdown.

This was indeed a big downside of REAPER's pre-AI envelopes. However, I think Cockos is trying not-so-subtly to get everyone to convert all old-school envelopes to AIs, and with AIs, multi-track selection is possible.

Originally Posted by airon

My suggestion would be to refine the visual display of the item+time selection method. Highlight more of what the effective selection is, as hard as that may seem with all the colouring options we have.

Could you explain a bit more?

[deeb]

Originally Posted by juliansader

However, I think Cockos is trying not-so-subtly to get everyone to convert all old-school envelopes to AIs

i don't believe that is their point. (Although they ain't do anything about it .. surprisingly to me ...)
But assuming it is true that is the problem I referenced early: AIs should be ment to be used when they are useful, otherwise it clutters the project with many steps involved. This makes AIs a enemy feature instead of being a useful one.

Let area selection do it's job and AIs to be used when they are useful. Ais weren't ment to copy paste envelopes. They are ment to be useful containers of envelopes to be used when they are friendly, handy and precious.

Originally Posted by juliansader

and with AIs, multi-track selection is possible

Is possible, but many steps involved and clutters the project. Area selection is basically one drag and a drop to copy ANYTHING to anywhere (single line or all including item, envelopes or AIs ..)

[deeb]

this is a 10 years old version : note that by some reason the gif capture displays the cursor to a normal pointer (don't know why),
so have in mind that mouse on over area selection becomes an hand, which can be perceived has drag me (moving or copying with modifier), and when mouse over edges to redimension area selection is also different mouse cursor, perceived as redimension me ... )






redimensioning or (flip) area selection according to bar, beat or quantize (1/64 defined in the right side)







and reordering lanes (out of topic but still ... ):





another one more general (just in case ...):

[deeb]

i can find a way to record all this in video, so that everything is more perceivable if any one interested (coff coff devs)

[vanhaze]

Deeb !
Your Cubase gifs are just fine, showing Area Selection principle.

I am very hoping Area Selection will come natively to Reaper V6.
I am abit done with thirdparty scripty workarounds TBH (respect to the makers though).

Warm Regards.

[deeb]

Hi vanhaze ! It s so damn frustrating the scripts, the prayer , Devs .. the silence so thanks at least I know is perceivable

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by deeb

and clutters the project.

The clutter of lots of AIs is probably the main (perhaps only) disadvantage of the REAPER way of doing things. However, the clutter also has two crucial advantages that more than make up for sometimes having to glue AIs:

* Pooled AIs: If you duplicate automation via AIs, you can at any time tweak one of the AIs, and the rest will automatically update.

* Recover previous envelope: When you copy automation into an existing AI, the existing AI will be trimmed (or moved into a separate lane). If you later decide that the original envelope shape was better, you don't need to search through your undo history. Just expand the trimmed AI back to its original length!

[deeb]

Originally Posted by juliansader

The clutter of lots of AIs is probably the main (perhaps only) disadvantage of the REAPER way of doing things.

You are comparing Bananas with Potatoes. They are not comparable. They are different tools for different purposes. I said that AI clutters project when they ared being used to do what should be done by Area Selection. The only thing they have in common is that both deal with automation, but with completely different purposes.

Originally Posted by juliansader

However, the clutter also has two crucial advantages that more than make up for sometimes having to glue AIs:

* Pooled AIs: If you duplicate automation via AIs, you can at any time tweak one of the AIs, and the rest will automatically update.

* Recover previous envelope: When you copy automation into an existing AI, the existing AI will be trimmed (or moved into a separate lane). If you later decide that the original envelope shape was better, you don't need to search through your undo history. Just expand the trimmed AI back to its original length!

it's not really an advantage, it's their function, and they should be used solely for this purpose when they are useful and friendly, otherwise it clutters project and workflow ...

Area Selection gives power to AI (and complement in terms of envelopes), but it has it's own purpose:
"Area selection is basically one drag and a drop to copy ANYTHING to anywhere (single line or all including item, envelopes or AIs ..), whille keeping the inner time block so that we don't have to be concerned with strange events timings, it's a block that takes care of it by us) .."

and gives extra possibilities like:
- Area selection -> Insert AIs
- Area selection -> Duplicate (AI and/or MI)
- Area selection -> Duplicate pooled (AI and/or MI)
- Area selection -> Select contained items(AI and/or MI)
- Area selection -> Select exclusively contained items (AI and/or MI)
- Area selection -> Glue (AI and/or MI)
- Area selection -> Group (AI and/or MI)
- Area selection -> Delete (AI and/or MI)

and manny more .. How can you still compare Area selection with AI's?

[ferropop]

Chiming in, as this is my most passionate crusade.

The biggest killer with lack of Area Selection is the visual disconnect. There's no simpler paradigm than to draw a square around stuff you want to manipulate on a Grid of all things!

In Excel, imagine the face-melt if you could only reliably copy rows of cells at a time. It's a grid, so naturally selection works in both the x and y direction.

That's what it feels like trying to manipulate things in Reaper -- all the "stuff" is 2-dimensional but our manipulative tools are 1-dimensional or workarounds that can kinda-armwavily do 2-dimensional things.

[ferropop]

This "not honouring the grid" thing manifests itself in other ways too. The lack of a crosshair option -- again, we're on a grid, so crosshairs are literally the most obvious and natural way to see with precision where you are on the grid -- somehow not a thing. How difficult would the lines of code be to draw a horizontal and vertical line around the mouse cursor?

I had to beg for guidelines when dragging media into the project, because without them you were basically guessing where you were dropping media items. It's still not perfect, and crosshairs would have so easily solved this, but I guess we pick our battles.

[ferropop]

So yes -- AI have a very specific purpose - to capture a "thing" and let you manipulate it (copy/paste/cut/duplicate/scale/loop). Just like audio/midi items, they come with that purpose, otherwise we would have just stuck with Analog Tape Machines.

And yes AI can be used to half-assedly make up for the drastic shortcomings of not having area selection, but they should absolutely not be a replacement for it.

[Edgemeal]

Another unexpected behavior when using AI...

Bypassing underlying envelope disables OPTION 'connect to the underlying envelope'

1) Enable, "Options: Automation items connect to the underlying envelope on both sides".

2) Create an envelope.

3a) Select envelope and run action, "Envelope: Bypass underlying envelope outside of automation items".
3b) Run the action again.

4) Now move the AI. Notice the AI is no longer connected to underlying envelope.

To fix: Select envelope and run action, "Envelope: Automation items connect to the underlying envelope on both sides". You can now toggle the "Envelope: Bypass underlying envelope outside of automation items" action and the AI will stay connected to the underlying envelope.

v5.973 & v5.974+dev0411 / Win7 / x64

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by vanhaze

Deeb !
Your Cubase gifs are just fine, showing Area Selection principle.

I am very hoping Area Selection will come natively to Reaper V6.
I am abit done with thirdparty scripty workarounds TBH (respect to the makers though).

Warm Regards.

What are the names of the scripts please? The ones that allow area selection workarounds? I can't find them.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by lowellben

What are the names of the scripts please? The ones that allow area selection workarounds? I can't find them.

vanhaze was probably referring to my "js_Area Selection" scripts, which can be seen here.

In the time since these scripts were written, we got Automation Items and the bugs in the native "Copy/Duplicate selected area" actions were fixed, so the scripts are largely obsolete. By using native actions (and mouse modifiers), it is now easy to copy/duplicate multiple automation lanes, even from areas without media items.

For a smooth workflow it is useful to have all automation in Automation Items, similar to how all media are in Media Items.

For more advanced multi-area selection (and if you're willing to use scripts), keep your fingers crossed for the new Area(51) script.

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by juliansader

vanhaze was probably referring to my "js_Area Selection" scripts, which can be seen here.

Julian quick question. I just opened ReaPack for the first time in a while. Why do you have so many obsolete scripts? Can every single one of these scripts be found elsewhere or if I remove them will I lose all functionality of them? They sound amazing. Have they been bundled or re-released in a different script? Thank you.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by lowellben

Julian quick question. I just opened ReaPack for the first time in a while. Why do you have so many obsolete scripts? Can every single one of these scripts be found elsewhere or if I remove them will I lose all functionality of them? They sound amazing. Have they been bundled or re-released in a different script? Thank you.

They have all been upgraded and re-released with names starting with "js_Mouse editing".

For about two months, these obsolete scripts would just pop up a notification of the new scripts and new features. After giving users some time to update, I recently deleted the old scripts to reduce clutter in ReaPack.

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by juliansader

They have all been upgraded and re-released with names starting with "js_Mouse editing".

For about two months, these obsolete scripts would just pop up a notification of the new scripts and new features. After giving users some time to update, I recently deleted the old scripts to reduce clutter in ReaPack.

Wow. Really? All the scripts in my screenshot are upgraded and are js_mouse editing?

Cuz I only see a few? what about the other non mouses? They are obsolete and still usable? like the CC ones

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by lowellben

Cuz I only see a few? what about the other non mouses? They are obsolete and still usable? like the CC ones

The older versions of the scripts still work as before and are still usable, but the new versions are definitely better. (You can see some GIFs of the new scripts in action in the MIDI Editor Tools thread.)

The new scripts are fewer in number, since each of them can bundle several of the old scripts. For example, previously there were four "Draw ramp" scripts:
* Draw sine
* Draw sine, chasing start value
* Draw linear
* Draw linear, chasing start value

All four are now combined into a single "js_Mouse editing - Draw ramp" script, and mouse clicks are used to switch between the different modes while the script is running.

[EpicSounds]

bug with importing Automation items

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=220104

[Edgemeal]

Reduce points of Automation Item,

When using mouse on scrollbar the envelope points are re-drawn incorrectly when you release the mouse button after setting the value. Note, points are drawn correctly when entering the value via textbox in the dialog.

Win7 / REAPER v5.977 and +dev0509 / x64




EDIT: Fixed in v5.978+dev0513 - May 13 2019

[deeb]

there are still a couple of things that make use AI an headache! this needs care

- when both selected item and AI, operations on one of them should be done to other too, as much as possible - move, split, move item content, offsets, etc
- option to not layer AIs

[juliansader]

This thread was started THREE YEARS ago, and AIs have still not been properly implemented.

I really don't understand the psychology behind the devs' handling of AIs. They spent such a lot of time and effort on AIs, and completed 99% of the work. Then suddenly, for some strange reason -- just before they could put the final touches on AI Actions such as copy and paste -- they just decided "meh, we're not interested any more".

[vanhaze]

Hi,

Regarding Copy - Paste Automation Item(s), i use these Actions succesfully for that:

- Edit: Copy items/tracks/envelope points (depending on focus) ignoring time selection
- Item: Paste items/tracks

But maybe you already know this and are aiming for something different regarding Copy - Paste Automation Item(s) (??)

[deeb]

yeah JS, the feature is there but workflow implementation still not. 1% cancels the fun and practical use of the 99% done.

[ferropop]

It would be earth-shattering if someone could come up with a workflow where you ..."Select" stuff you'd like to manipulate using a Box-Shape (we're on a grid so in the x and y direction, so an ..."Area" of sorts), and that "Area" represented the desired "Selection" of stuff that you'd like to copy/paste. If you want only the items, give that area a nice selection! Want the AI only? Select those puppies only. Want both? ....you got it, Select an Area of Both!

One can dream.

[deeb]

yes definetly ferropop, but altho area selection is crucial it wont solve existing AI and Items relation workflow problems.

My mind is "reaper do something with what i selected" and no conditionals.

all this actions should lead to the same result - copy both item and AI:


as it should with other actions: copy pooled, splitting, move content, left and right edje adjustment, delete and some other mouse modifiers behaviours.
As is now is unlogical and seems a bug.

Area selection then has it's own purpose, which could make AI seem like redundant, but no, each one has it's own purpose and benefit.
I guess just for finishing AI is still a lot of work but i think it it's worth since a LOT is done and altho personally i could live without it if i had Area Selection, it would still be sad to see half feature instead of a pristine one.

[vanhaze]

Totally agree, hope to see more logic in editing workflows regarding AI's'
AI's really should behave like normal Items: it's logical,it's what you would expect.

[ferropop]

Just tossing sand in the air guys haha <3

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by deeb

yes definetly ferropop, but altho area selection is crucial it wont solve existing AI and Items relation workflow problems.

My mind is "reaper do something with what i selected" and no conditionals.

all this actions should lead to the same result - copy both item and AI:


as it should with other actions: copy pooled, splitting, move content, left and right edje adjustment, delete and some other mouse modifiers behaviours.
As is now is unlogical and seems a bug.

Area selection then has it's own purpose, which could make AI seem like redundant, but no, each one has it's own purpose and benefit.
I guess just for finishing AI is still a lot of work but i think it it's worth since a LOT is done and altho personally i could live without it if i had Area Selection, it would still be sad to see half feature instead of a pristine one.

Deeb it looks like you have a time selection in your gif, does that affect it at all?

[deeb]

nope is not related, .. the reason is explained here: https://forums.cockos.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=20

and the debate sequence some posts before.

[deeb]

it seems like there is no glue Automation items respecting time selection.
Am i missing something?
If not would be nice to have the same has we have for items!

[-nicolas-]

May I suggest a few small enhancements for automation item editing:

1) action "unselect automation items"
There is no action for unselecting automation items.
It would be useful.
There is action 40289 that unselects items but not automation items.

2) I would like to move items AND automation items simultaneously.
The option "Envelope points move with media items" links automation items to items located on the same track.
For parallel FX sends, some automation items are related to items located on a different track. I would like to select everything and move everything alltogether.
At the moment, there is a bug: I select all but only items are moving.
https://stash.reaper.fm/41127/move%2...m%20210119.gif

3) Some mouse behaviours are missing:
Context: Automation item + left drag
Missing behaviours: Copy Item > Vertically and Move Item > Vertically.

Thank you

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by -nicolas-

2) I would like to move items AND automation items simultaneously.
The option "Envelope points move with media items" links automation items to items located on the same track.
For parallel FX sends, some automation items are related to items located on a different track. I would like to select everything and move everything alltogether.
At the moment, there is a bug: I select all but only items are moving.
https://stash.reaper.fm/41127/move%2...m%20210119.gif

This is an ancient FR: selected MIs and selected AIs should move and copy together, irrespective of whether "Envelope points move with media items" is enabled or not.

AIs could have been one of REAPER's flagship features, but sadly, development of AIs stopped halfway, and AI-related functions are wildly inconsistent.

[mccrabney]

selected MIs and selected AIs should move and copy together

yes, the fact that "env points move with items" supercedes the selection status of a mix of ai/media items remains a very rough patch in REAPER.

i've escaped this problem lately by leaning heavily on razor edits, but years later, i still find myself forgetting that selection alone does not dictate what gets moved.

[mccrabney]

i cannot overstate how much razor edits have helped with this, though.

[deeb]

i can't find the thread right now, but at some point schwa gave the feeling that some issues in AI will need to be fixed in a major release.

RE is amazing and hopefully it will be even more but AI is also amazing, the workflow is still missing, but Hope it will get fixed at some point.