Old 02-06-2016, 10:12 AM   #1
nalooti
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Default Master bus Reacomp question

Hi,
I'm beginning to try to use compression on the master bus by adding Reacomp in the master track.

I know the basics (I think) of compression. Reacomp is most of the time in red zone meaning the compressor is working and thus I'm able to augment the master volume in order to have a louder result.

Reacomp settings are:
Threshold -50dB, Ratio 4:1, Attack 10ms, Release 100ms

Yet I have a peak resulting in clipping that I want to get rid off.
My basic question is how ?

Thinking a limiter would be useful, I added a second instance of Reacomp after the first one to use it as a limiter with the following settings:

Threshold -5dB (I want the compressor to cut whatever above -5dB; actually I want nothing to go above 0dB which is the clipping limit, that is I should have put 0dB as threshold but though -5dB may be safer)

Very fast attack (1ms) so the compressor would act quickly so to not clip
Release of 100ms and a high Ratio of 20:1

Unfortunately I'm not able to get rid of that clipping. It happens whatever change I make to the settings.

I though a limiter is to CUT anything above certain level. So logically if I don't want to clip, that is I don't want to go above 0dB, the threshold should be set to 0dB with a fast attack. What is wrong with this reasoning? Why it doesn't work that way ?
How can I get rid of a clipping point using a limiter together with a compressor or just using the first compressor alone ?

Please understand my settings may be ridiculous but my goal for now is just understanding how the compressor and the limiter work. I'm not arguing what settings would be musically better. Sure I will later

thanks
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Old 02-06-2016, 10:31 AM   #2
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Play with the pre-comp fader to get the compressor working already before the peak.
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Old 02-06-2016, 10:53 AM   #3
nalooti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Play with the pre-comp fader to get the compressor working already before the peak.
Okay thanks I'll try that but a simple question: if a compressor works AFTER what we want to avoid, then what's the point of using it ? I mean we should always use a PRE-comp ? no ?
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Old 02-06-2016, 11:03 AM   #4
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Okay thanks I'll try that but a simple question: if a compressor works AFTER what we want to avoid, then what's the point of using it ? I mean we should always use a PRE-comp ? no ?
Not everybody wants to compress the transient.
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Old 02-06-2016, 11:11 AM   #5
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Sorry to ask, my main goal is to have the resulting mix sound way higher than what I have now. I though compression would do that but I tend to think I should have a limiter instead.
What limiter should I use ? Is it okay with Reacomp ? What settings in order to have a loud result yet avoid clipping ?

Maybe I'll lose the interesting dynamics, but once I understand how to use it to prevent clipping then, I'll change the settings to get back some of the dynamics.
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Old 02-06-2016, 11:48 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalooti View Post
Is it okay with Reacomp ? What settings in order to have a loud result yet avoid clipping ?
Pre-comp >0ms
short Attack
high Ratio
RMS size 0ms
AA at least 2x

Last edited by Dstruct; 02-06-2016 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 02-06-2016, 12:53 PM   #7
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I don't do much "mastering" with plugs as I did with analog. I know in analog, if you wanted to get loud results, you would set a brickwall limiter at 0 and then "fill the meters" with a compressor in front of it.Other words, use the compressor to push the signal into the limiter with the reference level registering "0-vu " but the actual volume is much louder..!It took good gear to do this without artifacts tho. Scared to try this digitally tho.
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Old 02-06-2016, 01:08 PM   #8
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Clipping of transients is less significant than clipping lower frequency content... a slow compressor will still take care of the latter, and usually the former is less of an issue. IMO of course...
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Old 02-06-2016, 01:34 PM   #9
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Reacomp has a built limiter. right bottom corner.

and threshold -50db with a ratio of 4:1?? I guess that cant be right, not on the master bus. on the other hand: I dont know what you are compressing.
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Old 02-06-2016, 02:37 PM   #10
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Thanks to all for your replies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Pre-comp >0ms
short Attack
high Ratio
RMS size 0ms
AA at least 2x
I guess I have to do this on the limiter (right after the compressor)

Quote:
Originally Posted by snatchman View Post
I don't do much "mastering" with plugs as I did with analog. I know in analog, if you wanted to get loud results, you would set a brickwall limiter at 0 and then "fill the meters" with a compressor in front of it.Other words, use the compressor to push the signal into the limiter with the reference level registering "0-vu " but the actual volume is much louder..!It took good gear to do this without artifacts tho. Scared to try this digitally tho.
This is almost what I've done in my master track if I understand you. First I have a compressor on which I try to get the sound I like, and then I have the limiter. If I understood you suggest to first put the limiter ?
Anyway, in my scheme, I set the threshold to 0dB (exactly when the clipping occurs) with a fast attack. Unfortunately, the clipping still was there at the exact same moment. Then Dstruct suggested to enable pre-compression in Reacomp, I guess in order to prevent the clipping even before it actualy arrives. I even lowered the threshold to -5dB, thinking it would cut even before arriving to 0dB clipping limit, but overall I can't have a really much louder result

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Clipping of transients is less significant than clipping lower frequency content... a slow compressor will still take care of the latter, and usually the former is less of an issue. IMO of course...
Do you mean there is no problem clipping at some really fast transients ?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightOfDay View Post
Reacomp has a built limiter. right bottom corner.

and threshold -50db with a ratio of 4:1?? I guess that cant be right, not on the master bus. on the other hand: I dont know what you are compressing.
how can I use that limiter, just enable the case "limit" ?

Here are my settings:

First Reacomp (as compressor):
Precomp 0, Attack 10 ms, Release 100ms, Ratio 4:1, threshold -47dB

Second Reacomp (as limiter):
Precomp 40, Attack 3 ms, Release 100ms, Ratio 20:1, threshold -32dB

I'm compressing on the master bus a cover of "hotline bling" by Drake

Overall as I said, I wasn't able to sensibly augment the resulting loudness compared with no compression/limiting at all on the master track
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Old 02-06-2016, 02:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalooti View Post
how can I use that limiter, just enable the case "limit" ?
Yep.


Or use a freeware one:

https://vladgsound.wordpress.com/201...-and-env1-skin
http://loudmax.blogspot.de
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Old 02-06-2016, 03:32 PM   #12
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you can use Reacomp as a very tricky limter the following way:

pre-comp: 0 or 1 or 2
ratio: inf
knee-size: 24

all other sliders are left untouched.

tick: auto-gain, limit and set AA to 8x

and then the highlight of the show: slowly turn down threshold.

the result is a thick and loud sounding limiting, but because of the knee-size its not brickwall-limiting where the peaks are simply cut off, its a smooth transition to brickwall-limiting. way better sounding than any brickwall-limiter.
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Old 02-07-2016, 04:40 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightOfDay View Post
you can use Reacomp as a very tricky limter the following way:

pre-comp: 0 or 1 or 2
ratio: inf
knee-size: 24

all other sliders are left untouched.

tick: auto-gain, limit and set AA to 8x

and then the highlight of the show: slowly turn down threshold.

the result is a thick and loud sounding limiting, but because of the knee-size its not brickwall-limiting where the peaks are simply cut off, its a smooth transition to brickwall-limiting. way better sounding than any brickwall-limiter.
Thanks for the recipe but I have problems making it work.
I guess by auto-gain you mean auto-makeup (which I ticked as well as limit and other settings you said).
Well, even before turning down the threshold, I have peaks and clippings (really soon). Then by turning down the threshold it gets worse: I'm always in red zone and keep clipping!

First, what is the meaning of auto-makeup and AA? It makes a lot difference when ticking auto-makeup because then it makes it really loud and I'm almost always in red zone.

Second, the principle of limiting is rather simple and straightforward and explained so easily in theory that one thinks it is easy to make it work. Why is it so complicated? How can I simply cut everything above a certain level (without for now considering the result musically, just for me to understand) ?
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Old 02-07-2016, 04:43 AM   #14
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BTW guys, do you prefer to use ReaComp or the JS:Master Limiter (or JS:Event Horizon some other limiter) on the master track ?
Is there a best option ?
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Old 02-07-2016, 05:43 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalooti View Post
Thanks for the recipe but I have problems making it work.
I guess by auto-gain you mean auto-makeup (which I ticked as well as limit and other settings you said).
Well, even before turning down the threshold, I have peaks and clippings (really soon). Then by turning down the threshold it gets worse: I'm always in red zone and keep clipping!

First, what is the meaning of auto-makeup and AA? It makes a lot difference when ticking auto-makeup because then it makes it really loud and I'm almost always in red zone.

Second, the principle of limiting is rather simple and straightforward and explained so easily in theory that one thinks it is easy to make it work. Why is it so complicated? How can I simply cut everything above a certain level (without for now considering the result musically, just for me to understand) ?
if you have clippings and distortion with the threshold set to 0 you are coming in way, way too hot! turn it down before the master. if you have nothing on the master-bus, really nothing, it should maybe go up to +3 or 4db, in case of real heavy transient could be a bit more.

what else do you have on the master? can you give a detailed desprition maybe with screenshots how you gain staging on the master bus is?

the other questions: yes, I meant make-up gain. its for compensating the loss of gain you have when you bring down the threshold. and exactley that is the point of using Reacomp as a limiter this way. you turn down the threshold, means you cut the peaks, but the loss of gain is compensated for. the knee-size makes the transition-curve smooth, so that you have no real corners in dynamic-curve.

and AA is the oversampling rate. dont care about that, set it to 8x and forget it.

but again: I guess you are mixing way too hot before the master. way too hot. if you lack of volume, turn up your monitors. thats what the volume knob is there for.

in digital everything is relative and not about the real analog loudness.
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Old 02-07-2016, 08:09 AM   #16
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This is stereo program you're working on? ie. There's no multitrack?

You can still slice a bit out (the part with the peak) and process it on a separate track. Use the ability of multitrack workflow to separate the elements you need to process differently.

Or...
You do still have the multitrack but the mix is too quiet and you're not sure what to do?

Remove that comp/limiter from the master bus! Try to identify the problem in the tracks. Listen to your mix next to reference mixes and so forth and take notes (after matching the volume with the reference mix). What's too buried? What's poking out that shouldn't. Rumble and/or low mids out of control in a track or 6?

Louder instantly sounds better to the ear. Don't be fooled by that and compress your whole mix! You'll just make it smaller and push it away. Take the compressed and boosted version and lower the volume to match the uncompressed mix and compare them. You'll reach for the disable button on that compressor pretty fast!
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Old 02-07-2016, 09:36 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lolilol1975 View Post
BTW guys, do you prefer to use ReaComp or the JS:Master Limiter (or JS:Event Horizon some other limiter) on the master track ?
Is there a best option ?
Im no limiter expert, but I like the JS master limiter. Simple and effective.
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Old 02-07-2016, 04:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightOfDay View Post
if you have clippings and distortion with the threshold set to 0 you are coming in way, way too hot! turn it down before the master. if you have nothing on the master-bus, really nothing, it should maybe go up to +3 or 4db, in case of real heavy transient could be a bit more.

what else do you have on the master? can you give a detailed desprition maybe with screenshots how you gain staging on the master bus is?
Here you have 2 screenshots; the first shows my first compressor on the master and the second is the limiter on which I set the parameters you suggested. On both you can see the master knob is on +16dB (maybe too hot?)
I have nothing else on the master.

I'm maybe mixing too hot before master (in each track). Please tell me based on screenshots, but I don't think so because at render time I'm usually able to move up the master knob almost until +20dB before any clipping.

However, if you're telling me the knob on the master itself is too hot, you're right. Actually I had put it at max (+24dB) thinking everything above 0dB would be removed by the limiter. When I saw it wasn't true, I gradually lowered that knob to +16dB (as you see in screenshots) thinking that the loss of gain on the master's knob would be compensated by the auto-gain provided by the limiter.
Don't know, maybe I'm touching the essentials in compression, that is the main gain of the track must be lowered to let room for the compressor to work; that is to add gain for the whole thing yet to avoid going over the threshold
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Old 02-07-2016, 06:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalooti View Post
Second, the principle of limiting is rather simple and straightforward and explained so easily in theory that one thinks it is easy to make it work. Why is it so complicated? How can I simply cut everything above a certain level (without for now considering the result musically, just for me to understand) ?
That is called clipping

Therefor a good limiter has to attack the transient ahead of time so that it can push the transient down so it can't get to that point, preferably as little as necessary.
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Old 02-08-2016, 02:08 AM   #20
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Okay, probably a few little things to think about. First, loudness as expressed by db is really a representation of voltage in the analog world, where things will eventually be heard. Bass frequencies use more voltage, life is too short to explain, but take it as a given. Any content below the ability of loudspeakers to reproduce eats voltage, so even if your meters read plus one billion, if it is mostly unusable voltage as it refers to speakers, things will not sound very loud. With tape recorders, this was not an issue, they rolled off around 50 hertz. Digital has no such limitation, so the first thing is to tailor bass response in things so that no voltage is wasted. Maybe the easiest way, just put the 12 band EQ from the Reaper plugins on the master bus, and set the High Pass filter to around 50. Not the best way, maybe, but it will help. Compression/Limiting? What the heck are they? Well, at base they turn down audio peaks according to the ratio and threshold. So if you set the threshold at -6 db, and the ratio at 4 to 1, any signal above that threshold will be attenuated by that same ratio. Four db over the threshold means that the increase will only be 1 db. A limiter is merely compression set to a very high ratio. They are turning things down, how does it sound louder? Volume is perceived in averages, the limiter is turning down peaks so that non-peak information can be pushed higher. I have found that the most transparent comp/limiter in the Reaper toolbox is the one called Digital Versatile Compressor V2, which has no "Mojo" to speak of, but is very accurate and flexible in its controls. I do not use it on the Master buss, although I do use it typically on the drum buss, as I prefer Limiter6 which is a freeware VST, and has more options. But it must be carefully applied or you get the dreaded wallpaper no-dynamics type of drone. I love the Event Horizon Clipper/limiter, use it on lots of things, which makes mixes far easier since they make individual tracks sit and stay like good dogs. That 1136 peak limiter is also way cool, especially with the tilt control, so you can not only change dynamics but also tilt the audio to bass or treble at a user settable crossover point. Very helpful for guitars, basses, kick drums, anything that has guts that might get lost by excessive compression. Get your individual tracks under control, with nothing across the Master bus, peaking around plus 3. Then try various EQ or Comp/Limiting, comparing it to a feed you trust, Spotify or iTunes, make sure volume is all the way up, and see where you stand versus the big boys. I tend to be louder, as I don't do it by the hour very often, so I can fiddle more, but I also check my waveforms after rendering to see how mangled they are....here is tonight's mangling..... https://soundcloud.com/jjinvegas/don...methadonia-002
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Old 02-08-2016, 02:25 AM   #21
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Try this one:
http://loudmax.blogspot.no/
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Old 02-08-2016, 03:16 AM   #22
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Default LoudMax is super lovable

Super low CPU, wonder how I missed this freebie, as I am always looking around. Sounds very cool on the drum bus also, thanks very much for sharing...
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Old 02-08-2016, 04:23 AM   #23
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Yes I find LoudMax works well
For master compression try TDR Kotelnikov - awesome.
But however you do it you're better doing it in separate stages in two VSTs

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Old 02-08-2016, 10:25 AM   #24
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Default Looked At Your Screenshots......

Uh, first step, set the master fader at 0, otherwise known as unity gain. Now start bringing up channels, this simple step will solve all your headaches. All your VST will work better on the master channel, as they are all designed with this sort of gain staging as the norm.
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Old 02-08-2016, 11:03 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightOfDay View Post
you can use Reacomp as a very tricky limter the following way:

pre-comp: 0 or 1 or 2
ratio: inf
knee-size: 24

all other sliders are left untouched.

tick: auto-gain, limit and set AA to 8x

and then the highlight of the show: slowly turn down threshold.

the result is a thick and loud sounding limiting, but because of the knee-size its not brickwall-limiting where the peaks are simply cut off, its a smooth transition to brickwall-limiting. way better sounding than any brickwall-limiter.

This is one of the coolest things ever. Real transparent thinkening of the mix.
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Old 02-08-2016, 12:03 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalooti View Post
...


However, if you're telling me the knob on the master itself is too hot, you're right. Actually I had put it at max (+24dB) thinking everything above 0dB would be removed by the limiter. When I saw it wasn't true, I gradually lowered that knob to +16dB (as you see in screenshots) thinking that the loss of gain on the master's knob would be compensated by the auto-gain provided by the limiter.

...
phew. dont touch the master-fader. the master-fader is set to 0. not slightlx above and not approximately 0, EXACT 0.

reason is: that is the outgoing level to your DAC, means the thing that makes music out of the digital 0s and 1s that you throw out of your computer.

and that level has to be set to 0, because everything else doesnt make sense.

so you have to hit with your mix at the input of the master-fader any level, that makes sense, means not too weak and not too high. in average -18db to at most -12db RMS is fine. -18db is better.

and then start using compressing and limiting.

and as I said, Reacomp works just fine as compressor and as limiter. to have a limiter at hand that can do more than all the other limiters tick the "limit" box on the right at the bottom.

and then play with the compressor. have a look at the meters in Reacomp. the gain reduction shouldnt show that much, at peaks maybe 3db, the out-level you have to check in deticking the limit-box to see, how much it overshoots if limit is unticked. adjust the amount of compression with the threshold.

but never ever throw the master-fader back to anything bigger than 0. never!
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Old 02-08-2016, 12:35 PM   #27
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To add to that, the only plugins inserted on the master bus should be metering.

Taking an unfinished mix - if it needs help of any kind, it's not finished - and pulling and tugging on it in "mastering" is madness.

To be clear - giving what you consider a finished mix to someone else to tinker with is a thing. Teamwork. But doing that with yourself is nothing but madness.

Finish your mix!

Listen and compare it to other reference mixes and take notes. Then go back to the multitrack mix and get back to work.
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:11 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brynolf View Post
Im no limiter expert, but I like the JS master limiter. Simple and effective.
Yeah me too. I find myself using indifferently JS Master Limiter when all I want is to limit cleanly, or vladg Limiter n°6 when I want to pump up the sound.
And now LightOfDay just gave another technique.
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:28 PM   #29
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To add to that, the only plugins inserted on the master bus should be metering.

Taking an unfinished mix - if it needs help of any kind, it's not finished - and pulling and tugging on it in "mastering" is madness.

To be clear - giving what you consider a finished mix to someone else to tinker with is a thing. Teamwork. But doing that with yourself is nothing but madness.

Finish your mix!

Listen and compare it to other reference mixes and take notes. Then go back to the multitrack mix and get back to work.
right. ^^^^ that.

to the OP: what do you think you need compression and limiting for? because you read that everybody does it? or that "pros" do use it?

as a newbie you shouldnt be concerned about what is happening after the first step. obviously the second step. but that doesnt have to concern while working on the first step. and taking the third step before the first is done means literally struggling.

get your mix ok. that should be your only rule. and try to get not over into the red when the master is set to 0. good exercise for mixing without compression and limiter and have the real experience of what is happening where and how and why and that doesnt lead into the trap to make a "huge sound" on the master-bus while neglecting all the flaws in the mix.

the levels you were talking of told me, that you have no clue. no pun intended. everybody started out without having any clue. thats what we all have in common. but you start from scratch and there is no shortcut.

make your mix sound good. everything else is icing on the cake and if the mix is ok, the rest is childs play.

another thought, I received from someone ages ago: dont work on one song. work on an album or a double-album or an anthology of epic scale. because you learn 10 times as much from 2 songs than from 1. so you learn 100 times as much from 10 songs. and you dont get frustrated of 100 million times the same, the next song always means fresh ears and you can be creative. to get creative when mixing needs years of experience. mixing is boring. editing is boring. mixing and editing is double-boring. automation is interesting as long as it is new. the second vocal track you automate is boring.

what I want to say is: learn one thing after the other and make sure, you dont get bored. compose and track or sketch 100 songs in a week. and then go work them out. and after the first 20 songs mix really good think about mastering and/or slamming a compressor/limiter on the master-bus.

(my gosh ... back in the "good old days" (<- that werent that good, not at all) we didnt know what a mastering compressor limiter was, if there existed one at all. and when we knew, we realized, that it costs as much as our parents cars. figure what we did? nothing. we used nothing on the master-bus. I am talking about 70s/80s and a 4-track-tape-machine and a Revox as master-machine. scary.)
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:43 PM   #30
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One more thing you should do is to "calibrate" your monitoring chain- import some reference songs in REAPER, have the channel and master at 0dB and adjust your soundcard and monitor volume so that stuff is neither too loud or too quiet. You could get all academic about this and use a decibel meter at proper distance from your monitors etc, but point here is to establish a general working level that you are comfortable with.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:45 PM   #31
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right. ^^^^ that.

to the OP: what do you think you need compression and limiting for? because you read that everybody does it? or that "pros" do use it?

as a newbie you shouldnt be concerned about what is happening after the first step. obviously the second step. but that doesnt have to concern while working on the first step. and taking the third step before the first is done means literally struggling.

get your mix ok. that should be your only rule. and try to get not over into the red when the master is set to 0. good exercise for mixing without compression and limiter and have the real experience of what is happening where and how and why and that doesnt lead into the trap to make a "huge sound" on the master-bus while neglecting all the flaws in the mix.

the levels you were talking of told me, that you have no clue. no pun intended. everybody started out without having any clue. thats what we all have in common. but you start from scratch and there is no shortcut.

make your mix sound good. everything else is icing on the cake and if the mix is ok, the rest is childs play.

another thought, I received from someone ages ago: dont work on one song. work on an album or a double-album or an anthology of epic scale. because you learn 10 times as much from 2 songs than from 1. so you learn 100 times as much from 10 songs. and you dont get frustrated of 100 million times the same, the next song always means fresh ears and you can be creative. to get creative when mixing needs years of experience. mixing is boring. editing is boring. mixing and editing is double-boring. automation is interesting as long as it is new. the second vocal track you automate is boring.

what I want to say is: learn one thing after the other and make sure, you dont get bored. compose and track or sketch 100 songs in a week. and then go work them out. and after the first 20 songs mix really good think about mastering and/or slamming a compressor/limiter on the master-bus.

(my gosh ... back in the "good old days" (<- that werent that good, not at all) we didnt know what a mastering compressor limiter was, if there existed one at all. and when we knew, we realized, that it costs as much as our parents cars. figure what we did? nothing. we used nothing on the master-bus. I am talking about 70s/80s and a 4-track-tape-machine and a Revox as master-machine. scary.)
Thank you very much for your thoughts, also everyone else.

You're right I'm a newbie and always learning, specially a lot from people in this forum. But it is rather strange whenever someone talk about compression and limiting, the first answer is do you really need it, why, etc. ? No matter I need them or not, what I do know is that I want to get a result much richer, much louder sound without clipping. And people get to that via compression and limiting.

Now, regarding my levels, are you saying I should lower the master to 0 dB and augment each track's level (o get to the same amount of loudness) ?

I'm confused because people in this forum suggested to begin with low levels in tracks and then augment the whole with the master! That is exactly the opposite !!!

So which way ? Either way I hope you agree with me that one way or another (with tracks' levels or with master's level) I have to push the sound to the maximum before clipping when I'm rendering ? (otherwise my recording result would be too low to listen everywhere)
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Old 02-10-2016, 02:30 PM   #32
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Thank you very much for your thoughts, also everyone else.

You're right I'm a newbie and always learning, specially a lot from people in this forum. But it is rather strange whenever someone talk about compression and limiting, the first answer is do you really need it, why, etc. ? No matter I need them or not, what I do know is that I want to get a result much richer, much louder sound without clipping. And people get to that via compression and limiting.

Now, regarding my levels, are you saying I should lower the master to 0 dB and augment each track's level (o get to the same amount of loudness) ?

I'm confused because people in this forum suggested to begin with low levels in tracks and then augment the whole with the master! That is exactly the opposite !!!

So which way ? Either way I hope you agree with me that one way or another (with tracks' levels or with master's level) I have to push the sound to the maximum before clipping when I'm rendering ? (otherwise my recording result would be too low to listen everywhere)
relative low levels on the tracks so you have room to move. (<- ha, thats from John Mayall!)

the master fader is the output of the master so to speak. the crucial point is the level with which you come into the master-channel.

you have that chain:

input master channel -> fx like compressor, limiter, EQ -> master-fader -> out to hardware (DAC)

the level that goes to the DAC (that leaves the master-fader) can not exceed 0db, if it does, you are calling for trouble. so master-fader to 0.

switch off all fx on the master. have a look at what level the master is now. you have to mix (rule of thumb) so that the loudest peaks are about -6db. the peaks, not the RMS values.

do your mixing accordingly to these values. if you need, lower or raise the channel-faders.

now to loud and thick and fat.

you get it loud and thick and fat with compression and limiting in putting of course a compressor on the master-bus and after that a limiter. or in case of Reacomp tick the limit box.

and now set Reacomp according to what I wrote before and turn the threshold slowly down. the more you go down with it, the more compression you have and the fatter it will get.

this way you will achieve loudness values like Metallicas Death Magnetic. (but I will kill you, if you tell someone that I told you how to do it. )

the culprit is the level with which you come into the master-channel. if you have that all managed, you can play with the sliders in Reacomp and see what they do. you can get really complicated with Reacomp.

the master of Reacomp is Ashcat_il.

and that is how compression to make it fat is done. and I am not responsible for collateral damage in the loudness war. :-)
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Old 02-10-2016, 03:30 PM   #33
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relative low levels on the tracks so you have room to move. (<- ha, thats from John Mayall!)

the master fader is the output of the master so to speak. the crucial point is the level with which you come into the master-channel.

you have that chain:

input master channel -> fx like compressor, limiter, EQ -> master-fader -> out to hardware (DAC)

the level that goes to the DAC (that leaves the master-fader) can not exceed 0db, if it does, you are calling for trouble. so master-fader to 0.

switch off all fx on the master. have a look at what level the master is now. you have to mix (rule of thumb) so that the loudest peaks are about -6db. the peaks, not the RMS values.

do your mixing accordingly to these values. if you need, lower or raise the channel-faders.

now to loud and thick and fat.

you get it loud and thick and fat with compression and limiting in putting of course a compressor on the master-bus and after that a limiter. or in case of Reacomp tick the limit box.

and now set Reacomp according to what I wrote before and turn the threshold slowly down. the more you go down with it, the more compression you have and the fatter it will get.

this way you will achieve loudness values like Metallicas Death Magnetic. (but I will kill you, if you tell someone that I told you how to do it. )

the culprit is the level with which you come into the master-channel. if you have that all managed, you can play with the sliders in Reacomp and see what they do. you can get really complicated with Reacomp.

the master of Reacomp is Ashcat_il.

and that is how compression to make it fat is done. and I am not responsible for collateral damage in the loudness war. :-)
Thank you very much for details.

So I was right about tracks' faders; they must be as low as possible so that their sum in master track (when every FX is off) shouldn't be more than -6 dB.
My mistake was that in order to get the loudest possible before clipping, I used to augment master's fader rather than use compression.
Did I understand correctly ?

But if that goes this way, how about when I don't want to compress/limit as much people argue about no compression to not to lose dynamics. How to get loud in this case without compression and the master fader on 0 dB?

Regarding input and output of the master track, is it correct to say that when master's fader is on 0, what we read on master is its input, that is the sum of all tracks that go into the master ?
Then, when we augment the master's fader, what we see on the master is its inputs + some gain introduced by the master ?

Why the master should always be on 0 dB ? always ? why then any fader on it ?
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Old 02-11-2016, 12:53 AM   #34
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nalooti,
my recommended levels:

Tracking: Peak -10 to -30 dbfs, ideal -18 dbfs rms
Track fx: -18dbfs rms (although a few plugins benefit from other levels)
Track volume and bus faders: 0db as a starting-point, then adjust as mix needs.
Master-bus: Set a limiter here for protection and adjusting to good monitoring levels (but no actual limiting in the mixing stage).

Then it's the subject of mastering that I won't go into now.

Good luck!
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Last edited by G-Sun; 02-11-2016 at 10:01 AM. Reason: Track peak -10
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Old 02-11-2016, 04:43 AM   #35
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^^^^ yep, right. :-)

to add something: if you have lots of tracks - say 80 - 100 - all peaking at -18db RMS you will come into the mater-channel way too loud, because they all add up.

but in such a case, you will see and then lower the track-faders.

rule is: it matters how loud you come into the master-channel. and that should be around -6db peak. if your mix is sounding good at that point, you can start to compress and limit on the master-bus, if you want to.
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Old 02-11-2016, 07:27 AM   #36
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Why the master should always be on 0 dB ? always ? why then any fader on it ?
It should be zero db for studio mixing because you are mixing into the "file container". As such, you want to put the file into the "container" at full level - which is 0db. Otherwise you would have saved it at less than full level which would also cut off the lower level data that would have been at the bottom of the "container" but is now cut off.

An example of a scenario where you would lower the master fader would be running live sound. Here you are running a PA system. While it would still be true that maximum fidelity of the signal is compromised at anything less than 0db... well, we obviously don't run our home hi-fi systems at only full volume all the time and likewise, you use the master volume control with a live PA too.

Back to the 'crush the mix with a limiter' thing...
You really don't want to mix through a limiter!
If you want to compare reference mixes that you only have "portable quality" copies of like CD or mp3 that have been limited/boosted for portable listening devices, turn down their level to match your raw mixes. Don't boost your mix output to match portable mastering levels. You can always come back and make reductions (boosted as needed) for portable formats.

Do you have any 24 bit HD music in your collection to compare to? You'll find most HD releases are hitting no higher that -16 LUFS these days.
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