Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-22-2017, 09:34 AM   #1
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default Latency compensation while transport is stopped

I'm pretty sure this is new, but in version 5.40, whenever I have a plugin that has some lookahead, the latency compensation isn't applied while I'm live monitoring. In older versions, it would delay everything to match the latency of the plugin, but it doesn't seem to be doing that any more.

I don't know if this is a new setting that I can't find, or a bug.

The latency compensation is working correctly during playback, it's just during monitoring that it doesn't.

Has anyone noticed this, and is there an option to get it working the way it did before?

Video showing the problem: https://youtu.be/O8AtiGmpooo
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com

Last edited by bozmillar; 08-23-2017 at 01:07 AM.
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 10:17 AM   #2
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
Default

I don't think this is new. It's always been that way here. It makes sense to me. I'm playing to what I'm hearing, not to what I'm going to hear. If all the other tracks were compensated, I'd still play to what I actually hear, and what I'm playing would still have to be delayed from that, except then since PDC is already applied, what I played would not end up "slid back" so it would just be late.

Edit - though really the easy answer is "don't do that".
ashcat_lt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 10:25 AM   #3
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bozmillar View Post
the latency compensation isn't applied while I'm live monitoring.
This has to be so because Reaper can only compensate for sounds that are there, not the ones that are coming in now.

But, you can get this monitoring latency negligible low
with a good sound-card, low buffers and a decent specked pc/mac
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 10:27 AM   #4
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

I'm almost certain it's new. I've spent about 12 million hours over the past couple of years hitting the kick drum key on my midi controller dialing in plugin settings, and I've never had an issue with latency flamming the drums until this latest version.
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 10:28 AM   #5
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
But, you can get this monitoring latency negligible low
with a good sound-card, low buffers and a decent specked pc/mac
Not if you deliberately introduce latency! "Lookahead", precomp, anything with a window like pitch shifting and a lot of the FIR/fft type stuff. Buffer settings can't help much in those cases.
ashcat_lt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 10:28 AM   #6
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
This has to be so because Reaper can only compensate for sounds that are there, not the ones that are coming in now.

But, you can get this monitoring latency negligible low
with a good sound-card, low buffers and a decent specked pc/mac
In the past, it would delay everything to match up with the new latency. It's not an interface issue, it's a latency compensation issue. If a plugin adds 1/2 second of latency, the other track used to add 1/2 sec of latency as well so they'd all line up, even when monitoring. It no longer does that.
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 10:35 AM   #7
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bozmillar View Post
In the past, it would delay everything to match up with the new latency. It's not an interface issue, it's a latency compensation issue. If a plugin adds 1/2 second of latency, the other track used to add 1/2 sec of latency as well so they'd all line up, even when monitoring. It no longer does that.
But you still have to hit the thing 1/2 sec (that's a long damn time) early or it'll still sound late. :/
ashcat_lt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 10:36 AM   #8
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

If I'm monitoring while recording, it works correctly. It only stops working correctly if I'm just monitoring without recording. If I hit "play" and monitor, it works correctly. It even works correctly for a few seconds after I hit stop, but then it jumps back to non-compensated after a couple seconds.

Maybe I should post a clip.
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 10:37 AM   #9
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
But you still have to hit the thing 1/2 sec (that's a long damn time) early or it'll still sound late. :/
Yes, but you have to do that anyway because the plugin is introducing the latency. But now it's both late and misaligned, so it's double bad.
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 10:56 AM   #10
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

ok, so I've narrowed it down to the fact that PDC does not work when the transport is stopped. It seems to work at all other times. I'm guessing it's a bug.
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 11:14 AM   #11
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

Here's a video showing the issue. I just don't know if it's a bug or an option I have set somewhere.

https://youtu.be/O8AtiGmpooo
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 11:31 AM   #12
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
Default

Oh. I guess I didn't unerstand exactly what you were talking about. The video does make it clear, and it does seem strange.
ashcat_lt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 11:48 AM   #13
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

That's probably because when I made the first post, I didn't really know what was going on either.
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 11:39 PM   #14
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bozmillar View Post
In the past, it would delay everything to match up with the new latency. It's not an interface issue, it's a latency compensation issue. If a plugin adds 1/2 second of latency, the other track used to add 1/2 sec of latency as well so they'd all line up, even when monitoring. It no longer does that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bozmillar View Post
If I'm monitoring while recording, it works correctly. It only stops working correctly if I'm just monitoring without recording. If I hit "play" and monitor, it works correctly. It even works correctly for a few seconds after I hit stop, but then it jumps back to non-compensated after a couple seconds.

Maybe I should post a clip.
Ok, sorry, my misunderstanding I guess.
Looking at your sig, I assume you are quite capable of determining the nature of the issue.
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 11:48 PM   #15
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

As I understand it
PDC lines up everything to everything when in playback (compensated). That meaning compensating for the longest chain of latency.
When monitoring the track in question gets flushed,
so it's not on line with the rest, but played through as fast as possible. (non-compensated)

So, I assume the issue you have is when monitoring on stop,
the track in question gets unwanted added latency-compensation,
presumably the length of the longest chain in your project.

Right?
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 11:57 PM   #16
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bozmillar View Post
Here's a video showing the issue. I just don't know if it's a bug or an option I have set somewhere.

https://youtu.be/O8AtiGmpooo
Looking at your video,
everything seems to work right.

- Monitoring on stop: Delayed signal caused by ReaFir on the monitoring tracks
- Playback: Compensated

You can not use anything like ReaFir on a track you want to monitor if you're not ok with huge latency on monitoring.
Use ReaEq, and thing should be fine.
But, have a second look on total chain of monitoring tracks.

See that 16384/16384 spls bottom right on FX chain-window.
That is selectedFx/all pdc for current track.
You would aim for 0 or very low here for real time monitoring.
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2017, 12:40 AM   #17
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

No, it's definitely not right, and it is only in the latest version it started doing that. It should compensate even when the transport is stopped. Or at least give the option.

I'm not worried about real time monitoring. I understand and am willing to put up with latency when I need to. What I can't really work with is having tracks not line up because PDC is turning off with the transport though. It's not a question of needing low latency, it's a question of having everything lined up in time.

I know it's possible because A) it works while tracking, like the video showed, and B) it worked before version 5.40. I was just hoping that maybe there was a checkbox somewhere in the options that I'm not seeing that would put it back in place, but it doesn't seem like there is.

I'm assuming it's just a bug, because 5.40 made some changes to the way Reaper does PDC, and I'm guessing this corner case just slipped through.
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2017, 12:44 AM   #18
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
So, I assume the issue you have is when monitoring on stop,
the track in question gets unwanted added latency-compensation,
presumably the length of the longest chain in your project.

Right?
No, the track doesn't get unwanted latency. The latency is there on purpose because the plugin that is adding the latency is there. What's not happening is the other tracks being compensated for the latency.
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2017, 12:46 AM   #19
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
You can not use anything like ReaFir on a track you want to monitor if you're not ok with huge latency on monitoring.
Use ReaEq, and thing should be fine.
But, have a second look on total chain of monitoring tracks.

See that 16384/16384 spls bottom right on FX chain-window.
That is selectedFx/all pdc for current track.
You would aim for 0 or very low here for real time monitoring.
right, but I'm not aiming for zero latency monitoring. I'm aiming for my tracks to be lined up when monitoring. Latency isn't the issue. Timing with respect to the other tracks is the issue.
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2017, 05:04 AM   #20
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

Ok,
I assumed there was a real kick playing, then a trigger of some sort.
But it's maybe just midi kick? (ah, I was confused with the sound of you pressing the key)
Then it's routed to different tracks
and those does not align?

Now I get you.

Yes, seems wrong
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2017, 05:44 AM   #21
Justin
Administrator
 
Justin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
Default

REAPER has always delayed each track only as necessary when stopped, that behavior hasn't changed recently. If you need multiple channels synchronized when stopped, you could keep them on the same track, or route audio after the PDC is applied.
Justin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2017, 07:59 AM   #22
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

well, I figured out why I was confused and thought it was new. After having spend hours doing this with no issue, it was because I was testing it with my kick sidechained to my overheads, which was syncing up the delay to the overheads preventing the flam.

So it's not that it was doing it the way I would expect it before, it's just that I had it routed in a way that lined it up.

I'm still a little bit baffled that I haven't noticed this before because now that I know it's there, I can't get used to it. It's making me question my own sanity more than anything.
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2017, 08:07 AM   #23
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

Is there anything I can to to trick reaper into thinking that the transport is going so that it lines it up? I guess I could loop a small silent spot and hit play.
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 12:11 AM   #24
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

Can't you make a dummy-routing that busses the signal in some way?
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 04:46 AM   #25
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,688
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
I don't think this is new.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
Can't you make a dummy-routing that busses the signal in some way?
I seem to remember that when I once started using ReaVerb for live playing (Midi input in stop mode), I found a huge delay (latency) for all active midi->audio channels. Obviously Reaper applied the delay compensation to the streams parallel to ReaVerb.

So I set ReaVerb to ZL and all worked fine.

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.