Control Surface - Reaper DIY Kits

[Win Conway]

Hmmmm thought
I could even create this as a standalone EXE to pipe into Reaper using Synthmaker for testing
Dunno if that is a useful idea or so ?

[l0calh05t]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

For the record the latest MIDIBox is ARM not PIC and is coded in C

Last time I checked it was all PICs

Between 1999 and 2008, MIDIbox applications have been developed for PIC microcontrollers, since 2002 with MIOS8 as operating system. Most of them are implemented in assembly language to get the maximum out of the PIC, with the drawback that the code was difficult to understand and to enhance - not only for newbies. Later a C interface has been developed to allow the implementation of small gadgets on a more elegant way, but experienced programmers quickly reached the limitations of the PIC where only assembly optimized code or the usage of multiple PICs could help.

Guess they switched now.

[Win Conway]

Yeah first they switched to the SM32, now its been switched over to LPC17 ARM
The ideal being that because it is now coded in C you can create emulations for win/mac for testing before building
Not saying we should go MIDIbox here by the way
Has to be perfect for the job here for us to run with it
I have spoken to SmashTV about this project (MB mod and supplier of the MB kits at Avishowtech)
He is definitely interested in putting kits of this on the shelf if it is MIDIboxed based so that anybody can build it in the future (Massively down the line from here i know, It was just general chit chat)

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

Also struck by the fact that it is mentioned LED ring to show param value, but still keeping the display on each encoder to show name and param value, seems like a bunch of param value overlap there ?

Ergonomics -- One thing I love about the MCU encoders is that the LED ring gives you "values at a glance" and the LCD is great for exact parameter values when you are focusing on one item.

We could also think about overlays for the Master section -- here's an example -- I used fridge magnet paper (available at Staples / Business Depot for around $2.50 per sheet) and did a DIY one for the MCU DLL I coded.

This is just the first one - it's targeted toward Tracking.

I envision adding other overlays, with the soft switches chaning function accordingly, for Editing, Mixing, Arranging, Post, etc.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Nick Morris

I WILL find these LED rings or how it is done. I have a lead to search now, so it should not be too hard. ...I hope.

Here's a start -- single color though:

http://mayhewlabs.com/products/rotary-encoder-led-ring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWb-hRHbbSU

[Win Conway]

At those kinds of prices for LED rings, wouldn't it make more sense to just design our own PCB with the 4 rings and encoders
Those have SMD LEDs which seems like adding a lot in the way of mounting into the panel
If we made our own we could just use normal LEDs and have them protude slightly from the panel

Just a thought anyway

[l0calh05t]

This seems like a nice option:
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10595

Still monochromatic though

[Win Conway]

Even if we got em at min price (Sparkfun are never exactly cheap haha) you would still be looking at $250 just for the LED rings for one 8 fade board
I know i keep banging on about price but that is nowhere near realistic for a vast portion of Reaper user base

Edit
Multi color LEDs in a LED ring is gonna be close to $400 in the UK and that is just for indicators
Making your own PCB and using single color LEDs closer to $40 (probably below)

Really don't think LED ring PCBs or housings are a viable option at those price points

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

Even if we got em at min price (Sparkfun are never exactly cheap haha) you would still be looking at $250 just for the LED rings for one 8 fade board
I know i keep banging on about price but that is nowhere near realistic for a vast portion of Reaper user base

Edit
Multi color LEDs in a LED ring is gonna be close to $400 in the UK and that is just for indicators
Making your own PCB and using single color LEDs closer to $40 (probably below)

Really don't think LED ring PCBs or housings are a viable option at those price points

I guess it depends on whom you think the potential interested parties are.

As you likely know, I coded up a solution for the MCU + extenders + C4 and it's only seen 44 downlaods, klinke's has only seen 60.

I already have a very workable but substandard (my standards only, of course) solution with the DLL / MCU / Extender / C4.

I for one wouldn't be interested in a lateral move.

I'm interested in something to rival the Tango and Euphonix stuff and am willing to play a little more, that's how much I value workflow and ergonomics.

just my $0.02

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

Even if we got em at min price (Sparkfun are never exactly cheap haha) you would still be looking at $250 just for the LED rings for one 8 fade board
I know i keep banging on about price but that is nowhere near realistic for a vast portion of Reaper user base

Edit
Multi color LEDs in a LED ring is gonna be close to $400 in the UK and that is just for indicators
Making your own PCB and using single color LEDs closer to $40 (probably below)

Really don't think LED ring PCBs or housings are a viable option at those price points

That is definitely much higher than I want to settle for. I am still checking into much cheaper options.

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

I guess it depends on whom you think the potential interested parties are.


I'm interested in something to rival the Tango and Euphonix stuff and am willing to play a little more, that's how much I value workflow and ergonomics.

just my $0.02

+1

I still think we should be able to deliver this for a really inexpensive price.

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Ergonomics -- One thing I love about the MCU encoders is that the LED ring gives you "values at a glance" and the LCD is great for exact parameter values when you are focusing on one item.

We could also think about overlays for the Master section -- here's an example -- I used fridge magnet paper (available at Staples / Business Depot for around $2.50 per sheet) and did a DIY one for the MCU DLL I coded.

This is just the first one - it's targeted toward Tracking.

I envision adding other overlays, with the soft switches chaning function accordingly, for Editing, Mixing, Arranging, Post, etc.

On the same page as you on all of this.

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

Are these the same thing ?
If so can you give me a bit more info on the display, maybe an photo example
I'm only asking because i am gonna go full with this mock up instead of the basic mock ups i did before just for ideas

Oops, this was the same thing. There should only be one channel select with display. Sometimes I just start typing...

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

I am also missing how you change the 4 encoders on the 8fader
Don't they need up down buttons beside each encoder to go through the parameters ?
Or are we going to use the switch built into the encoder ?

There would be two small buttons. The encoders would be push button, and I figure between these three switches, one could be on/off, one could be up, one could be down. I guess it would make the most sense to have the small button be up and down and the encoder be on/off.

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

Ignore the look i know it is crappy right now (It will look nicer when we have a fixed layout)
All i want to know is how are we for layout here ?
Gonna need info on the displays for the encoders and any thing i have left out not got right

Looks like what I was thinking. Add the displays for the encoders(4character LEDs work fine for me. Whatever would be cheapest works here) , the channel select button, and the small nav buttons for the encoders and you should have the channel strip done.

[Klinke]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

As you likely know, I coded up a solution for the MCU + extenders + C4 and it's only seen 44 downlaods, klinke's has only seen 60.

I don't think that this is important, but the 60 downloads are only caused by people, who didn't read the info-text on the Stash "upload", where is give already the correct download-link. Due to the manual the current extension archive is to big for the Reaper Stash. If my memory is correct, v0.6 had around 1500 downloads, but of course some are also multiple downloads from the same users. I have no numbers for v0.8, because this is now stored in my Dropbox account (and i don't know how i can count the downloads in this case).

From the feedback i got, i developed the impression that about 80% are using a Behringer BCF and not a Mackie Control.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Klinke

I don't think that this is important, but the 60 downloads are only caused by people, who didn't read the info-text on the Stash "upload", where is give already the correct download-link. Due to the manual the current extension archive is to big for the Reaper Stash. If my memory is correct, v0.6 had around 1500 downloads, but of course some are also multiple downloads from the same users. I have no numbers for v0.8, because this is now stored in my Dropbox account (and i don't know how i can count the downloads in this case).

From the feedback i got, i developed the impression that about 80% are using a Behringer BCF and not a Mackie Control.

Sorry for the misinformation, as you know I totally respect the work you've done.

1500 downloads is really great news in terms of this project !

[Win Conway]

I know you say you have to look at the intended audience for this
Truth be told every Reaper user is the intended audience for this
I doubt very much if there is a high percentage of people who would not wan't to use a system like this if A) they could afford it and B) could build it

The truth is that this project has to come in at a way lower price than a lot of people here may be thinking otherwise it becomes a personal project for one or two people and in that sense a very wasted effort

I mean lets be honest here, with the current layout and no price cuts on parts, the 8 fade layout would already cost more than a second hand MCU and extender before you even designed and bought the casework (Which is actually the expensive part)

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

I mean lets be honest here, with the current layout and no price cuts on parts, the 8 fade layout would already cost more than a second hand MCU and extender before you even designed and bought the casework (Which is actually the expensive part)

I hear ya'

Just the silk screening alone ain't gonna' be cheap.

[Win Conway]

I'm thinking that its possibly going to be cheaper to go per channel on the actual panel, ala big old consoles, if we use buttons that can be named within the button cap itself then nothing actually needs printing or engraved

Just thinking of cut costs here

[Geoff Waddington]

Agreed, I'm more talking about the Fader gradations

[jacobestes]

Just in case anybody out there thinks otherwise, I'd like to say that $250 for LEDs for one board is absurd. That's exactly the kind of thing that Reaper is not about.

And like he says, I'm one of those people that will buy one if I can afford and build it. If someone says it has to cost more because it needs motorized faders, I can get behind that. I know that prettier lights have a use, but if you had to choose between new cables and mic stands, or cute lights, which would you spend your money on?

Another thing is, we are talking about indicators for things we are looking at on screen, right?

[pixeltarian]

I think it would be cool to have LED VU meter modules that go next to the faders that you could put in later.

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

I know you say you have to look at the intended audience for this
Truth be told every Reaper user is the intended audience for this
I doubt very much if there is a high percentage of people who would not wan't to use a system like this if A) they could afford it and B) could build it

The truth is that this project has to come in at a way lower price than a lot of people here may be thinking otherwise it becomes a personal project for one or two people and in that sense a very wasted effort

I mean lets be honest here, with the current layout and no price cuts on parts, the 8 fade layout would already cost more than a second hand MCU and extender before you even designed and bought the casework (Which is actually the expensive part)

I agree with you for the most part. At some point, price and function have to meet. We all have different ideas on what they would like to spend on a project like this, so somebody is going to be left out no matter what.

No one seems to be able to give a figure or price range on what they are comfortable with. I stated before I would like to be able to build the modules for less than the Mackie/Euphonix stuff. It WILL cost more than Behringer though. I am committed to keeping this as cost friendly as possible but, come on, there is no way this project would be worthwhile if we were just trying to put out a faderport copy for 60 bucks.

Others in this thread have expressed similar desires, and I do believe we will get this done at a terrific price point to satisfy many Reaper users.

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by jacobestes

Just in case anybody out there thinks otherwise, I'd like to say that $250 for LEDs for one board is absurd.

Absolutely absurd.

[Win Conway]

I just think we need to reign back a bit on the perfection, at some point reality has to kick in and 15 LEDs * 32 encoders is not only cost prohibitive but also about two weeks of soldering haha

[yagonnawantthatcowbell]

yes, cheep! Under $500, I reckon.

[Nick Morris]

the multi colored LED rings are very expensive and a custom order. I do not think it is a viable option at this point unless I can find another for waaaaaay less.

I am still looking to find another distributor for these in the mean time. Anyone ever come across these?

Does anyone have experience with the LCD/LED/OLED programmable switches. I have never used them and want to know what exactly they need, how to program them, etc. Where would one look for this info. I have some manufactures/Ditributors for them. Just waiting on replies and figured I would ask you guys while I wait.

[airon]

What about monochromatic LEDs around the encoders, but one multicoloured light per channel.

This could be a small blip in a small hole. The automation state on some Harrison consoles are done this way.

Or the channel select button could be backlit with multiple colours to indicate what the encoders(and fader) control.

It just needs a good visual cue, so the user doesn't have to study an LCD text panel to know what the control surface is up to.

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by airon

What about monochromatic LEDs around the encoders, but one multicoloured light per channel.

This could be a small blip in a small hole. The automation state on some Harrison consoles are done this way.

Or the channel select button could be backlit with multiple colours to indicate what the encoders(and fader) control.

It just needs a good visual cue, so the user doesn't have to study an LCD text panel to know what the control surface is up to.

Well, I have been thinking about a different solution and the Harrison consoles popped into my head too.

I have been thinking about a programmable switch for the channel select too, and not just for the soft keys then.

I think you can program the color then giving the quick visual cue, and of course use an icon and text.

http://www.screenkeys.com/downloads/...0Catalogue.pdf

[Win Conway]

Aren't screenkeys really expensive ?
Last time i looked they where like $100 each or something mad

[airon]

As much as I'd like these, they are terribly expensive. Just look at the MC Pro, which costs almost $20000 and is one of the truly flexible units in this manner.

The detail you can get on keys like this is not the flexibility we can afford or probably even need for the indicator we're after, colour.

The great thing about the System 5 channelstrips is that they require only a glance to indicate what they're doing.

Details about the function can take the shape of small printed text such as magnetic printable sheets like the one Goeff showed for added flexibility.

For example, the EQ requires a minimum of three controls per band, plus a push button for on/off of a band. You could label the control knobs with small coloured background boxes and white text.

I'll take gpunk's mockup and try to illustrate the idea.

[Nick Morris]

Yep, I was waiting to here back on some vendors costs. That idea never really had a chance with those prices.

[amsonx]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

I guess it depends on whom you think the potential interested parties are.

As you likely know, I coded up a solution for the MCU + extenders + C4 and it's only seen 44 downlaods, klinke's has only seen 60.

I already have a very workable but substandard (my standards only, of course) solution with the DLL / MCU / Extender / C4.

I for one wouldn't be interested in a lateral move.

I'm interested in something to rival the Tango and Euphonix stuff and am willing to play a little more, that's how much I value workflow and ergonomics.

just my $0.02

i don't know your works but i see that the Klinke's plugin is only for Pc.. i think that the solution must be multiplataform

[airon]

Here's one way this could work.

The yellow spots could be sends, plugin parameters, or we could just add a fourth colour, if the selection button can be lit four ways.

White - Volume, pan

This design would either have dedicated buttons for EQ, Dynamics, Plugins and Sends selection.

Here are two designs. Sorry the second looks a little crooked, but I don't know my way around vector packages that well :\.

_____________

-edit1- updated second image for some more markings around the red buttons.
-edit2- added a third image with banking switches being the top-most two red buttons. The EQ/Dyn switch toggles between EQ/Dynamics/none. Each function switch toggles in and out of the respective modes.

The problem may be how to pick the insert and then to know what parameter you're actually touching. This is where a centre section with LCDs would help a lot for plugin control.

-edit3- Added fourth image
It adds colours buttons for the bottom, which can just be coloured plastic, not actually lit by a coloured light.

The fourth mockup now has only one "Insert" button to toggle through three available colours on the channel selection button(plus white for simple channel select), to keep the multi-coloured lights to the minimum of ONE.

The channel select button has two lights which mix to a third, or three different ones. The button itself is white translucent. The other buttons have coloured plastic with the simplest light underneath it to indicate ON/OFF.

The insert button cycles through "EQ", "Dynamics" and "Inserts". "EQ" selects the first EQ on the track, same with "Dynamics". "Inserts" will colour the channel select button to either the two-colour mix, or the third colour to indicate INSERTS. The "Sends" button does the same, but of course the Sends button will be lit up as well, and not the Insert button. It might be good to use that mix colour for the plastic of the button "Sends".

In all this means for the fourth mockup from top to bottom :

• Bank Selects, Rec, Solo, Mute, Ins and Sends have simple white lights behind them, and coloured covers where appropriate.
• Rec has a red cover
• Solo a yellow cover
• Mute a less strong red cover
• Ins has a simple white cover
• Sends has the third colour as a cover because "Two yellow lights = Sends" and "One yellow light = Inserts", i.e. the yellow light on the "Ins" button and the channel select buttons.
• The Channel select button(or did someone want to put the LCD there? ) has a multicoloured light. Blue, Gree, Yellow, White.
• The "Auto" button changes the automation mode for an individual channel. We're already using a multicoloured light for knob modes, so I'm not sure what we could do here even if we want automation modes on each channel strip.

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by amsonx

i don't know your works but i see that the Klinke's plugin is only for Pc.. i think that the solution must be multiplataform

thats the idea. I work on both platforms here.

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by airon

[*]The "Auto" button changes the automation mode for an individual channel. We're already using a multicoloured light for knob modes, so I'm not sure what we could do here even if we want automation modes on each channel strip.[/list][/indent]

Not convinced yet that we need per channel automation buttons. Should we?

[Geoff Waddington]

I'll have to post an alternate opinion here, perhaps arrived at because of the way I work, here goes:

Large format consoles have an ergonomical magic, but there is a price, for instance you only have one style of EQ and maybe some dynamics per strip.

You end up going to the rack for a lot of specialized functions.

I see Reaper ( and most other DAWS ) in this light.

So I believe the strip is for routing / level type functions such as:

Assign hardware input channel for Audio / MIDI
Assign hardware output (monitoring, outboard, etc.)
Monitor mode ( always, tape style, etc.)

One rotary with function buttons and LED color feedback from the rotary as to which mode it is currently in controlling:
Pan (push to switch to Width)
Send level
Hardware Send level

Mode Switch for pan pot
Rec Switch
Mute Switch
Solo Switch
Select Switch

I now envision the master module having an array of buttons / LCD displays for FX -- sort of like an external rack.

If the Master module external rack selection is FX, then a particular track's FX are shown in the virtual rack.

I did a poor man's version of this concept.

Notice how the channel that is selected (white light on switch) causes the FX parameters for the track to display on the C4

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by airon

[*]The Channel select button(or did someone want to put the LCD there? ) has a multicoloured light. Blue, Gree, Yellow, White.

Where is this button? Or am I confusing this with the LCD?

[Nick Morris]

Originally Posted by airon

In all this means for the fourth mockup from top to bottom :[list][*]Bank Selects, Rec, Solo, Mute, Ins and Sends have simple white lights behind them, and coloured covers where appropriate.
[

The bank selects should not be on the strip. you would have these functions on the master module.